Digital BW, The Print

Although my 7500 is back and running now, while its future was questionable,
I was exploring whether to simply buy a 4800 or 7800.  With respect to that
issue, I was using a 2400 to see what combination of inks might be the best
way to go for B&W.  Some of my results may be of interest to those with
these printers.

 

The bottom line is that "Advanced B&W" mode printing works very well with
carbon ink in the yellow position.  A second LLK (or MIS UT7 LC) works very
well, resulting in a very good ramp ("darker" and "Shadows - 10).  What this
second LLK does is not only remove the relatively weak yellow pigment from
the B&W mix, but it also results in prints that use the very minimum of the
LM and LC color pigments.  Because the carbon is, in effect, a very low
gamut yellow, the amounts of the LM and LC used to get to neutral are much
less than if the high gamut yellow was in the printer.  In a 2400, to get
back to color printing, just stick the standard yellow cart back in.

 

The Epson K3 LK and LLK are not the same as the older K2 LK.  The new LK and
LLK are much more neutral (and a bit green).  The MIS ("K4") LK and LLK are
still the more yellow color, very similar to the Epson K2 LK tone.  Because
the MIS K4 carbon inks are more yellow, the range that can be achieved with
them in the printer is greater on the warm end of the range than when the
Epson LK and LLK are used.

 

Of course, when the MIS LK and LLK are used more color is needed to achieve
a neutral print.  However, in past tests the MIS inks have still been more
lightfast.  I'll try to test this in the future.  Note that while I'm told
MIS LK and LLK are pure carbon, the Epson LK and LLK appear to be about half
carbon and half "proprietary dyes and pigments."  (See for example the MSDSs
at
http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/support/supDetail.jsp?BV_UseBVCookie=yes
<http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/support/supDetail.jsp?BV_UseBVCookie=yes
&oid=57105&infoType=MSDS> &oid=57105&infoType=MSDS ;  I do not have
comparable MIS sheets.)

 

At any rate, for those who want more lightfast prints from their 2400 with
the minimum of work, just pulling the yellow and sticking a second LLK in
that position (with the Y chip put on that cart) appears to be a serious
contender.  Using all the inks with the Epson driver in ABW mode at RPM
resolution produced Crane Silver Rag prints that were as good as any I've
ever seen.

 

Paul

www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>  

 

 

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Paul, what were you using for your printer space with this setup?  QTR
-icc?

Ed

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@...> wrote:
>
snip

>  
> 
> At any rate, for those who want more lightfast prints from their
2400 with
> the minimum of work, just pulling the yellow and sticking a second
LLK in
> that position (with the Y chip put on that cart) appears to be a serious
> contender.  Using all the inks with the Epson driver in ABW mode at RPM
> resolution produced Crane Silver Rag prints that were as good as any
I've

> ever seen.
> 
>  
> 
> Paul
> 
> www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>

I use Gray Gamma 2.2 in the Photoshop "Color Settings."  Then the file can
be either GG2.2 or un-tagged, and the "Darker" with "Shadows -10" matches
the GG 2.2 output from my Create ICC workflows (and monitor) quite closely.
I've been using Epson PK to get that nice 2.5+  dmax on Crane SR.

 

Paul

www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>  

 

 

  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
edrudolpho
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 11:28 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: More lightfast 2400 prints -- carbon in the
Y-position

 

Paul, what were you using for your printer space with this setup? QTR
-icc?

Ed

--- In DigitalBlackandWhit
<mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>
eThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@...> wrote:
>
snip

> 
> 
> At any rate, for those who want more lightfast prints from their
2400 with
> the minimum of work, just pulling the yellow and sticking a second
LLK in
> that position (with the Y chip put on that cart) appears to be a serious
> contender. Using all the inks with the Epson driver in ABW mode at RPM
> resolution produced Crane Silver Rag prints that were as good as any
I've
> ever seen.
> 
> 
> 
> Paul
> 
> www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroar <http://www.paulroark.com/> k.com/>


 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Wonderful!  Really good news, Thank you.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Hi All - it maybe a silly question, but when Paul says a second LLK
does that mean OEM LLK in the yellow position?

Thanks, John.


Paul Roark Wrote:

"The bottom line is that "Advanced B&W" mode printing works very well with
carbon ink in the yellow position. A second LLK (or MIS UT7 LC) works very
well, resulting in a very good ramp ("darker" and "Shadows - 10)."

The idea was to get a more lightfast "carbon" ink in the yellow position to
replace the relatively weak yellow and reduce the total amount of color pigs
to a minimum, while still using the Epson driver and ABW mode printing.

 

You can use either MIS or OEM LK and LLK in the Yellow position to do this.
The OEM LLK and LK are more neutral than the MIS versions.  They are also
not pure carbon.  I'll have to fade test neutral prints to see which
combination is "best" overall for neutral printing.  (MIS B&W inks generally
have beat Epson pigment prints; not the case with the magenta ink, however.)
One obvious advantage to the MIS LK and LLK is that their greater warmth
gives the suggested combination the ability to print warmer prints, if that
is one of your goals.

 

The 2400 yellow can also be replaced by the MIS UT7 LC.  This is a carbon
ink that is slightly darker than the LLK, but it is close enough and works
well.

 

Be sure the chip on whatever cart you put in the yellow position is the one
meant for that position.

 

My overall guess as to the optimum combination for the 2400 would be K =
Epson PK, LK = MIS LK, LLK = MIS LLK, Y = MIS LLK or UT7 LC, C = either MIS
or Epson C, LC = either MIS or Epson LC, M = Epson M, LM = Epson LM.  With
this combination, and Crane Silver Rag, try the following driver settings:
media type = Premium Semigloss, RPM, High speed off, ABW settings include
Darker, Shadows -10, and the Lab color coordinates set to (-5, 14).  The
resulting ramp will match the monitor with Gray Gamma 2.2 color space.  This
makes one of the nicest prints I've ever seen.

 

Enjoy,

 

Paul

www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>  

 

 

 

 

  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
cubefarmjb
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 5:23 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: More lightfast 2400 prints -- carbon in the
Y-position

 

Hi All - it maybe a silly question, but when Paul says a second LLK
does that mean OEM LLK in the yellow position?

Thanks, John.

Paul Roark Wrote:

"The bottom line is that "Advanced B&W" mode printing works very well with
carbon ink in the yellow position. A second LLK (or MIS UT7 LC) works very
well, resulting in a very good ramp ("darker" and "Shadows - 10)."

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Excellent, this is great.  Thanks for the explanation Paul.

Cheers, John.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...> wrote:
>
> The idea was to get a more lightfast "carbon" ink in the yellow position to
> replace the relatively weak yellow and reduce the total amount of color pigs
> to a minimum, while still using the Epson driver and ABW mode printing.
> 
>  
> 
> You can use either MIS or OEM LK and LLK in the Yellow position to do this.
> The OEM LLK and LK are more neutral than the MIS versions. > Paul


With the OEM inks, it was easy to switch the chips>  But the thickness of the one "fin" of the 
LLK above the chip, would not allow the LLK cart to be substitued for the Y cart.  The LLK cart 
has one thick fin  and the Y cart has two thin "fins."

Maybe shaving the fin on the LLK cart will do the trick?

Martin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "mxgo95747" <mxgo95747@...> 
wrote:
>
>
> 
> With the OEM inks, it was easy to switch the chips>  But the thickness of the one "fin" of 
the 
> LLK above the chip, would not allow the LLK cart to be substitued for the Y cart.  The 
LLK cart 
> has one thick fin  and the Y cart has two thin "fins."
> 
> Maybe shaving the fin on the LLK cart will do the trick?
> 
> Martin
>


disregard my previous post.  I was doing it all wrong, I was only substituting the chips and 
not the entire "box" with the chip.  

My only excuse for the dumb move is that I only had a short after noon nap.

Martin

No, it's a good point.  I only have one Epson LLK at this point, so I've
been using mostly the MIS carts.

 

How easy is it to switch the entire box?  I have not tried that yet.

 

Paul

www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>  

 

 

  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mxgo95747
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 7:22 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: More lightfast 2400 prints -- carbon in the
Y-position

 

--- In DigitalBlackandWhit
<mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>
eThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "mxgo95747" <mxgo95747@...> 
wrote:
>
>
> 
> With the OEM inks, it was easy to switch the chips> But the thickness of
the one "fin" of 
the 
> LLK above the chip, would not allow the LLK cart to be substitued for the
Y cart. The 
LLK cart 
> has one thick fin and the Y cart has two thin "fins."
> 
> Maybe shaving the fin on the LLK cart will do the trick?
> 
> Martin
>

disregard my previous post. I was doing it all wrong, I was only
substituting the chips and 
not the entire "box" with the chip. 

My only excuse for the dumb move is that I only had a short after noon nap.

Martin

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

For OEM inks: Use a thin knife to separate the "box chips" from the cartridges.  Then line 
up the plastic "prongs"  on the LLK cart with the holes of the Y "chip box" and push firmly.   
That worked for me.

I tried three prints with the LLK cart in the Y position and two of them looked really good.  
The third, which was of a white marble statue, looked too "cool" for my tastes.

Martin


-- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...> 
wrote:

>
> No, it's a good point.  I only have one Epson LLK at this point, so I've
> been using mostly the MIS carts.
> 
>  
> 
> How easy is it to switch the entire box?  I have not tried that yet.
> 
>  

> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mxgo95747
> "mxgo95747" <mxgo95747@> 
> wrote:
> >

> disregard my previous post. I was doing it all wrong, I was only
> substituting the chips and 
> not the entire "box" with the chip.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...> wrote:

> How easy is it to switch the entire box?  I have not tried that yet.
> 
 

With OEM carts:  Use a thin knife to separate the "chip box" from the carts, then line up the Y 
cart "chip box" holes with the "prongs" of the LLK cart and push the "chip box" firmly into 
place.  Note the word firmly, it does require a firm push.

I printed three B&W prints, two looked very good.  The third print, of a white marble statue, 
looked too cool for my tastes.

This is the second time I posted this message.  I guess the first one did not go through.

Paul, thanks for the tip.  I can see my self using this proceedure for making neutral prints.

Martin

The extra LLK in the Y slot also works very well using the Epson driver with a custom RGB 
profile (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/message/79164) 
for toned or neutral monochrome images.  Hue control with the custom RGB profiles is 
also easier than guessing what you will get with the ABW driver if you use the RGB profiles 
for softproofing when toning the images. 
Interesting to note how much "yellow" ink the Epson driver uses in this mode compared to 
other inks.  Grab shot in link below is Epson status monitor.  All inks except C and M were 
refilled at same time.  Note greater "Yellow" (actually LLK) ink usage compare to other ink 
positions (ignoring C and M).  This was after printing about a dozen 11x14 toned and 
neutral RGB images.
http://homepage.mac.com/scho/c1.jpg
There is also a significant reduction in bronzing and GD on the hybrid gloss papers I've 
tested so far when using LLK in the Y slot.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...> 
wrote:

>
> Although my 7500 is back and running now, while its future was questionable,
> I was exploring whether to simply buy a 4800 or 7800.  With respect to that
> issue, I was using a 2400 to see what combination of inks might be the best
> way to go for B&W.  Some of my results may be of interest to those with
> these printers.
> 
>  
> 
> The bottom line is that "Advanced B&W" mode printing works very well with
> carbon ink in the yellow position.  A second LLK (or MIS UT7 LC) works very
> well, resulting in a very good ramp ("darker" and "Shadows - 10).  What this
> second LLK does is not only remove the relatively weak yellow pigment from
> the B&W mix, but it also results in prints that use the very minimum of the
> LM and LC color pigments.  Because the carbon is, in effect, a very low
> gamut yellow, the amounts of the LM and LC used to get to neutral are much
> less than if the high gamut yellow was in the printer.  In a 2400, to get
> back to color printing, just stick the standard yellow cart back in.
> 
>  
> 
> The Epson K3 LK and LLK are not the same as the older K2 LK.  The new LK and
> LLK are much more neutral (and a bit green).  The MIS ("K4") LK and LLK are
> still the more yellow color, very similar to the Epson K2 LK tone.  Because
> the MIS K4 carbon inks are more yellow, the range that can be achieved with
> them in the printer is greater on the warm end of the range than when the
> Epson LK and LLK are used.
> 
>  
> 
> Of course, when the MIS LK and LLK are used more color is needed to achieve
> a neutral print.  However, in past tests the MIS inks have still been more
> lightfast.  I'll try to test this in the future.  Note that while I'm told
> MIS LK and LLK are pure carbon, the Epson LK and LLK appear to be about half
> carbon and half "proprietary dyes and pigments."  (See for example the MSDSs
> at
> http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/support/supDetail.jsp?BV_UseBVCookie=yes
> <http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/support/supDetail.jsp?BV_UseBVCookie=yes
> &oid=57105&infoType=MSDS> &oid=57105&infoType=MSDS ;  I do not have
> comparable MIS sheets.)
> 
>  
> 
> At any rate, for those who want more lightfast prints from their 2400 with
> the minimum of work, just pulling the yellow and sticking a second LLK in
> that position (with the Y chip put on that cart) appears to be a serious
> contender.  Using all the inks with the Epson driver in ABW mode at RPM
> resolution produced Crane Silver Rag prints that were as good as any I've
> ever seen.
> 
>  
> 
> Paul
> 
> www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>

Carl,

 

(I’m just getting to the forum messages for the last 3 days.)  

 

As I mentioned off list, I was afraid the driver would under-use the LK and
LLK “core” inks in RGB mode.  This ink usage pattern seems to be consistent
with that, but it’s actually not as bad as I feared it’d be.  One thing that
might help marginally is to use UT7-LC instead of LLK in the yellow spot.
It’s a bit darker, but not much.  The higher load of carbon might cause the
ink amount of the ink to be lessened a bit.  In my first experiments I used
the UT7-LC and it worked very well.  It’s light enough that no dots appear.
As a practical matter, since the inks are all the same price for a bottle,
the higher the load, the cheaper the ink on a per-print basis.

 

What PK are you using?

 

Paul

www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>  

 

 

 

 

  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Carl
Schofield
Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2006 1:38 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: More lightfast 2400 prints -- carbon in the
Y-position

 

The extra LLK in the Y slot also works very well using the Epson driver with
a custom RGB 
profile (http://groups.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/message/79164>
yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/message/79164) 
for toned or neutral monochrome images. Hue control with the custom RGB
profiles is 
also easier than guessing what you will get with the ABW driver if you use
the RGB profiles 
for softproofing when toning the images. 
Interesting to note how much "yellow" ink the Epson driver uses in this mode
compared to 
other inks. Grab shot in link below is Epson status monitor. All inks except
C and M were 
refilled at same time. Note greater "Yellow" (actually LLK) ink usage
compare to other ink 
positions (ignoring C and M). This was after printing about a dozen 11x14
toned and 
neutral RGB images.
http://homepage. <http://homepage.mac.com/scho/c1.jpg> mac.com/scho/c1.jpg
There is also a significant reduction in bronzing and GD on the hybrid gloss
papers I've 
tested so far when using LLK in the Y slot.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhit
<mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>
eThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...> 
wrote:
>
> Although my 7500 is back and running now, while its future was
questionable,
> I was exploring whether to simply buy a 4800 or 7800. With respect to that
> issue, I was using a 2400 to see what combination of inks might be the
best
> way to go for B&W. Some of my results may be of interest to those with
> these printers.
> 
> 
> 
> The bottom line is that "Advanced B&W" mode printing works very well with
> carbon ink in the yellow position. A second LLK (or MIS UT7 LC) works very
> well, resulting in a very good ramp ("darker" and "Shadows - 10). What
this
> second LLK does is not only remove the relatively weak yellow pigment from
> the B&W mix, but it also results in prints that use the very minimum of
the
> LM and LC color pigments. Because the carbon is, in effect, a very low
> gamut yellow, the amounts of the LM and LC used to get to neutral are much
> less than if the high gamut yellow was in the printer. In a 2400, to get
> back to color printing, just stick the standard yellow cart back in.
> 
> 
> 
> The Epson K3 LK and LLK are not the same as the older K2 LK. The new LK
and
> LLK are much more neutral (and a bit green). The MIS ("K4") LK and LLK are
> still the more yellow color, very similar to the Epson K2 LK tone. Because
> the MIS K4 carbon inks are more yellow, the range that can be achieved
with
> them in the printer is greater on the warm end of the range than when the
> Epson LK and LLK are used.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course, when the MIS LK and LLK are used more color is needed to
achieve
> a neutral print. However, in past tests the MIS inks have still been more
> lightfast. I'll try to test this in the future. Note that while I'm told
> MIS LK and LLK are pure carbon, the Epson LK and LLK appear to be about
half
> carbon and half "proprietary dyes and pigments." (See for example the
MSDSs
> at
> http://www.epson.
<http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/support/supDetail.jsp?BV_UseBVCookie=yes
> com/cgi-bin/Store/support/supDetail.jsp?BV_UseBVCookie=yes
> <http://www.epson.
<http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/support/supDetail.jsp?BV_UseBVCookie=yes
> com/cgi-bin/Store/support/supDetail.jsp?BV_UseBVCookie=yes
> &oid=57105&infoType=MSDS> &oid=57105&infoType=MSDS ; I do not have
> comparable MIS sheets.)
> 
> 
> 
> At any rate, for those who want more lightfast prints from their 2400 with
> the minimum of work, just pulling the yellow and sticking a second LLK in
> that position (with the Y chip put on that cart) appears to be a serious
> contender. Using all the inks with the Epson driver in ABW mode at RPM
> resolution produced Crane Silver Rag prints that were as good as any I've
> ever seen.
> 
> 
> 
> Paul
> 
> www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroar <http://www.paulroark.com/> k.com/>


 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]