Digital BW, The Print

I've just tested PrintFIX PRO 2.0 for profiling the MIS UT7 inks. For those 
who have expressed interest in this combination, here are my observations:

First, amazingly, it actually works. I would have bet money it couldn't be 
done.

Next, as Paul Roark predicted, it doesn't work as well as profiling the UT3D 
inks. Given that most, if not all, printers that support UT7s also support 
UT3Ds, I would agree with Paul, that moving to the UT3Ds is the right thing for 
those interested in using ICC profiles to control MIS inks.

Now the details: 

Target prints on the 2200 and Entrada Bright paper showed a real break 
between black and dark tones, so I was not suprised to see issues in the final 
profile in this area. Moving the ink density slider all the way to +20 reduced this 
issue significantly. This adjustment is not necessary with the UT3Ds.

Default results are not ideal, as the inkset (on this media) does not 
actually capture the neutral axis, so the software is working towards "best 
substitition" for an out of gamut condition. Again, the UT3Ds offer a bit more range in 
this direction, reducing this issue. 

Using the profile under Custom Proof Setup in Photoshop, and using curves 
VISUALLY (ignore color channel names, they don't relate to ink colors!) to adjust 
to a smoother result, with some tonality of interest, the results can be 
quite good. This also smooths the shadow to black trasition nicely. UT3Ds also 
have switched color channels, but they do not require adjustment to get smooth 
results; you only adjust the image with UT3Ds to get a non-neutral tint of your 
choice, not to attempt to move into an in gamut range, and achieve visual 
smoothness.

Gloss/luster papers should actually be easier to profile, but I didn't try 
the PhotoK ink, so I can't comment beyond that speculation. Other art papers may 
be easier as well, as they may offer more neutral default results, causing 
fewer out of gamut issues. Ironicly the older formulations of Entrada printed 
cooler, and would probably have reached the neutral axis with these inks. The 
newer, warmer, coating (which I requested, and for most uses very much prefer) 
happen to push this warm inkset over the edge into always warm, never neutral.

So the conclusion is the same as the introduction: its amazing that these 
inks can be controlled by 3D   LUT style ICC profiles, but the UT3Ds will perform 
more stongly in all areas, so switch to them, if you want to use PrintFIX PRO 
as your method for controlling MIS B&W printing.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

CDTobie@... wrote:
...
>I've just tested PrintFIX PRO 2.0 for profiling the MIS UT7 ...

>First, amazingly, it actually works. 
...

But poorly, it sounds like.

What UT7 and UT2 get one over UT-3D is sepia.  Sepia ink, however, has
significant amounts of yellow in it.  And this ink will be in all the images
with PFP, increasing metamerism and fading.  So, if the poorer image is not
enough to discourage this, there are also other negative factors.

Those who like sepia ought to see what pure carbon looks like on Crane
Silver Rag.  In my not very scientific survey, the CSR carbon was selected
over the sepia ink print.  Add to that preference the huge longevity
advantage of the pure carbon image, and, frankly, I just totally lost
interest in the old sepia ink.  It's just not up to the longevity standards
I think we need.  This is not to say I'm ignoring the warm end of the scale,
but I think we can do better than the old sepia formula.

If you want to use PFP, I'd strongly recommend an inkset that is more
appropriate for that workflow, and, with a bit of luck, there should be more
of them in the near future.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

What size target was used?

Couple of questions:

I rembember Entrada printed significantly cooler and greener than other
papers with the UT7 inks. Does it still do that? I'm wondering if you would
get different results with another paper.

Could you set the driver to color controls, adjust the contrast to get
better transitions in the shadows, and profile this? Would that give better
results? 

I remember setting density to +20% actually reducing dmax on several papers,
so I'd prefer to avoid that.

In any case, my PFP is arriving any day now, so I'll try all of these things
and report back with my results. My comparison will be ICC's created with my
X-Rite 810 and QTR-Create-ICC-RGB, which is working very well for me.

The main reason I don't want to use the UT-3D inkset is that then I can't
put GLOP in the yellow position. I still find Gloss Optimizer very useful on
several glossy papers. 

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, CDTobie@... wrote:
>
> I've just tested PrintFIX PRO 2.0 for profiling the MIS UT7 inks. For
those
> who have expressed interest in this combination, here are my
observations:
>
> First, amazingly, it actually works. I would have bet money it
couldn't be
> done.
>
> Next, as Paul Roark predicted, it doesn't work as well as profiling
the UT3D
> inks. Given that most, if not all, printers that support UT7s also
support
> UT3Ds, I would agree with Paul, that moving to the UT3Ds is the right
thing for
> those interested in using ICC profiles to control MIS inks.
>
> Now the details:
>
> Target prints on the 2200 and Entrada Bright paper showed a real break
> between black and dark tones, so I was not suprised to see issues in
the final
> profile in this area. Moving the ink density slider all the way to +20
reduced this
> issue significantly. This adjustment is not necessary with the UT3Ds.
>
> Default results are not ideal, as the inkset (on this media) does not
> actually capture the neutral axis, so the software is working towards
"best
> substitition" for an out of gamut condition. Again, the UT3Ds offer a
bit more range in
> this direction, reducing this issue.
>
> Using the profile under Custom Proof Setup in Photoshop, and using
curves
> VISUALLY (ignore color channel names, they don't relate to ink
colors!) to adjust
> to a smoother result, with some tonality of interest, the results can
be
> quite good. This also smooths the shadow to black trasition nicely.
UT3Ds also
> have switched color channels, but they do not require adjustment to
get smooth
> results; you only adjust the image with UT3Ds to get a non-neutral
tint of your
> choice, not to attempt to move into an in gamut range, and achieve
visual
> smoothness.
>
> Gloss/luster papers should actually be easier to profile, but I didn't
try
> the PhotoK ink, so I can't comment beyond that speculation. Other art
papers may
> be easier as well, as they may offer more neutral default results,
causing
> fewer out of gamut issues. Ironicly the older formulations of Entrada
printed
> cooler, and would probably have reached the neutral axis with these
inks. The
> newer, warmer, coating (which I requested, and for most uses very much
prefer)
> happen to push this warm inkset over the edge into always warm, never
neutral.
>
> So the conclusion is the same as the introduction: its amazing that
these
> inks can be controlled by 3D   LUT style ICC profiles, but the UT3Ds
will perform
> more stongly in all areas, so switch to them, if you want to use
PrintFIX PRO

> as your method for controlling MIS B&W printing.
>
> C. David Tobie
> Product Technology Manager
> ColorVision Business Unit
> Datacolor Inc.
> CDTobie@...
> www.colorvision.com
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

In a message dated 11/29/06 1:04:44 PM, dfaprinting@... writes:


> What size target was used?
> 

225 patch. More patches could detail things further, but the range of low 
gamut inks is so limited, that its not typically necessary. The difference 
between measuring a patch between two other (nearly indistinguishable) gray patches 
and interpolating for it is not typically significant.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 11/29/06 1:26:02 PM, daniel@... writes:


> I rembember Entrada printed significantly cooler and greener than other
> papers with the UT7 inks. Does it still do that? I'm wondering if you would
> get different results with another paper.
> 
Results would certainly differ. But as I noted the new Entrada prints warm, 
not cool. The older version would actually do better at offering neutrals with 
UT7s.   MY impression of the overall gamut of these inks is that they range 
from chocolate to... less chocolate.
> 
> Could you set the driver to color controls, adjust the contrast to get
> better transitions in the shadows, and profile this? Would that give better
> results?
> 
This would not change the color of the inks, it would just reduce the overall 
color gamut even further. I would anticipate worse results.
> 
> I remember setting density to +20% actually reducing dmax on several papers,
> so I'd prefer to avoid that.
> 
Yes, both a +20 and a -20 ended up adding a couple of L* points at black; not 
good. One more reason for recommending the UT3Ds...
> 
> In any case, my PFP is arriving any day now, so I'll try all of these things
> and report back with my results. My comparison will be ICC's created with my
> X-Rite 810 and QTR-Create-ICC-RGB, which is working very well for me.
> 
CreateICC does not create legal ICC profiles. It creates RGB Channel-Curves 
sandwiched onto null ICC profile cores. PrintFIX PRO is creating actual 3D 
LookUpTable profiles. So its a very different process, and very different results.
> 
> The main reason I don't want to use the UT-3D inkset is that then I can't
> put GLOP in the yellow position. I still find Gloss Optimizer very useful on
> several glossy papers.
> 
> You can't put ANYTHING unexpected into the ink channels without then taking 
responsibility for all the channel controls with a RIP, and curves, and all of 
that. But not everyone is anxious to get under the hood, RIP (pardon the pun) 
out components, substitute others, and try to get the thing running again. If 
you want to use GLOP via the driver, you need a printer that comes with GLOP, 
so the driver knows its there. Or else use gloss inks (as Epson now does) 
instead of GLOP, or use sprays after printing... etc.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, CDTobie@... wrote:
>
> 
> In a message dated 11/29/06 1:04:44 PM, dfaprinting@... writes:
> 
> 
> > What size target was used?
> > 
> 
> 225 patch. More patches could detail things further, but the range
of low 
> gamut inks is so limited, that its not typically necessary. The
difference 
> between measuring a patch between two other (nearly
indistinguishable) gray patches 
> and interpolating for it is not typically significant.
> 


Thanks, I wasn't thinking of it correctly. I was thinking that you had
probably used the larger target, but it would indeed be a bit towards
pointless wouldn't it.

As a PFP v1.1 owner, this thread prompts me to ask the following.

How important is a custom profile, any profile, to printing in ABW mode with
K3 inks?

I have done a mess of profiles for all the papers I use but haven't actually
taken the time to compare a correctly profiled b&w print on a given paperr
against an incorrectly profile duplicate.

Any comments?

Dave.

-- 
My Photography: http://www.david-keenan.com
My Blog: http://www.david-keenan.com/euroblog


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Just curious how you can get a carbon print with CSR without getting loads of bronzing.  
Which inkset do you recommend?

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...> wrote:

>
>
> 
> Those who like sepia ought to see what pure carbon looks like on Crane
> Silver Rag.  In my not very scientific survey, the CSR carbon was selected
> over the sepia ink print.  Add to that preference the huge longevity
> advantage of the pure carbon image, and, frankly, I just totally lost
> interest in the old sepia ink.  It's just not up to the longevity standards
> I think we need.  This is not to say I'm ignoring the warm end of the scale,
> but I think we can do better than the old sepia formula.
> 
> > 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

>AWB is a non-ICC process; no profiles possible, not previews possible, no
>matching one device to another possible

For cripes sake, I have wasted SO much time then profiling all of these
papers... I had no idea that ICC weren't used in ABW mode.

BTW -- Is PFP 2.0 available yet? If not, when?

Dave.

-- 
My Photography: http://www.david-keenan.com
My Blog: http://www.david-keenan.com/euroblog


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>>AWB is a non-ICC process; no profiles possible, not previews possible,
>> no matching one device to another possible

>For cripes sake, I have wasted SO much time then profiling all 
>of these papers... I had no idea that ICC weren't used in ABW mode.

Grayscale file + Create ICC + ABW makes a very nice workflow that is "color
managed" with a grayscale ICC such that the print matches the monitor's
grayscale ramp and the density ramps of prints similarly "color managed" on
other systems.

We all benefit from new workflows, but let's not ignore the excellent ones
we already have.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

>Just curious how you can get a carbon print with CSR without 
>getting loads of bronzing. Which inkset do you recommend?


I use MIS inks and have not found the bronzing to be too bad with many
glossy paper, CSR being one of them.  All the MIS inksets I've been involved
with have the capability to have only the carbon inks printed.  Glop is
still a useful option for those who want the best glossy prints.  Several
inksets have that capability, including UT2, UT7, and the 4K+ approach with
the 2200.  Frankly, a 3K+cm&Glop would work fine on a 1280 or any modern
hextone.  K, LK and LLK are all one needs for outstanding printing.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

I recently printed a whole exhibition using one of your curves converted to
ICC using QTR-Create-ICC-RGB linearized with my X-Rite 810 densitometer. 

I made a few tests of the first two prints, but the rest I printed directly
at full size without making any test prints first. Every image printed
perfectly and looked exactly the way I wanted them.

Before creating the ICC I added a curve adjustment layer under your curve to
create a reasonably even gray ramp with no flat spots or sudden jumps.  I've
found this to be essential to making a good profile.

Real ICC profile or not? I don't know... But damn useful! I love it when
things just work.

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no

> Grayscale file + Create ICC + ABW makes a very nice workflow 
> that is "color managed" with a grayscale ICC such that the 
> print matches the monitor's grayscale ramp and the density 
> ramps of prints similarly "color managed" on other systems.
> 
> We all benefit from new workflows, but let's not ignore the 
> excellent ones we already have.