Digital BW, The Print

My 4800 is printing a smoother gradient transition using the "BLACK" 
setting (BO) than my C-86 with MIS EZ w/pk is capable of.

I used the files that Graham Preston recently posted to this 
newsgroup.

The 4800 is using Epson K3 Photo Black ink.

Although I like the results I get with the EZ inks, I've recently 
been experimenting with the "Black" setting on the 4800.

The 4800 is producing excellent results with nice deep blacks. The 
Epson PK is a little on the "cool side". I prefer the warmth of the 
MIS EZ Photo Black.

If I didn't need use my 4800 for color printing, I'd probably using 
MIS EZ PK, with a little bit blue pigment added to bring it more 
towards neutral, and print BO exclusively.

There is some bronzing with the PK ink, but I'm sure a little Print 
Shield would take care of it. Also, bronzing wouldn't be a problem 
with matte media, however, I need to print on gloss and luster media 
for "paying jobs" :>) Otherwise, I'd stick with MK ink.

Anyone else using the  "BLACK" setting on their X800 series printer?

Scott

Hello Scott,

>My 4800 is printing a smoother gradient transition using the "BLACK" 
>setting (BO) 

Please, Scott, the "Black" setting is _not_ BO.  BO means Black Only,
literally meaning one ink.  The Black setting on the 4800 and 3800 is
using black plus LK and LLK, so maybe call it BGG (Black-Gray-Gray) or
something else.  Calling it BO will only create confusion.  Thanks
very much.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" 
<cj@...> wrote:
>
> Hello Scott,
 
> 
> Please, Scott, the "Black" setting is _not_ BO.  BO means Black Only,
> literally meaning one ink.  The Black setting on the 4800 and 3800 is
> using black plus LK and LLK, ....... 

And you know this to be true why? Your last PM to me, you said you were 
trying to nail down if the 3800 uses only Black ink or if it also uses 
some of the other inks.

Now you know for sure the 3800 can't do "BO"? 

Scott

>Please, Scott, the "Black" setting is _not_ BO. BO means Black Only,
>literally meaning one ink. The Black setting on the 4800 and 3800 is
>using black plus LK and LLK,
Let's call it "B3".

Paul --

What is your opinion of B3 vs BO prints?

Dave.
-- 
My Photography: http://www.david-keenan.com
My Blog: http://www.david-keenan.com/euroblog


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Oops.... My question about B3 vs. BO prints should have been directed to
Clayton..

Sorry about that...

Dave.

-- 
My Photography: http://www.david-keenan.com
My Blog: http://www.david-keenan.com/euroblog


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello Scott,

>And you know this to be true why? Your last PM to me, you said you 
>were trying to nail down if the 3800 uses only Black ink or if it 
>also uses some of the other inks.

Yes, that is correct. At that time I had not seen a B3 print (yes
David K. I agree on using "B3" - much better than "BGG", thanks).  I
was trying to determine the answer from yours and other reports.


>Now you know for sure the 3800 can't do "BO"? 

Yes, now that I have a B3 print in my posession - it's right here
beside me as I write this - I'm convinced.  I have examined it closely
with a 6x loupe (I gave a detailed description in the other thread)
and there are clearly three shades of gray/black being used.  The
crossover points can be clearly seen on a ramp.  

Just as a supporting point, Epson has used the term "Black Only" for
years with their earlier printers that had the BO option.  They
certainly understand the meaning of the term and I doubt that it's an
accident that the term "Black" would used on these printers if it
really was BO.  Besides all the above, anyone who is familiar with BO
printing will know immediately just by looking at the print that it's
not BO.  Based on all the above I'm well convinced it's using all
three blacks.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Hello David,

>Let's call it "B3".

I agree, it much better than "BGG".


>What is your opinion of B3 vs BO prints?

At this point I've only seen a ramp and step wedge.  I can say that
it's much smoother and will certainly avoid the grainy look that some
people like and some don't.  It may be too smooth to appeal to the
"Digital Tri-X" lovers.  But it looks like it will retain it's nice
luminance and will have the longevity advantage of pure carbon.

Just looking at the ramp there's no doubt it will make beautiful
prints. The big question is how they will look tone wise on various
papers, and also whether Eboni can be used (carts) and how it will
look with LK and LLK.  Part of BO's popularity was due to Eboni's
beautiful properties.  It remains to be seen how all this will add up
and whether B3 printing will be a popular as BO.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Dave,

 

(Not sure if I'm the one you were asking, but I'll share my opinion, for
what it's worth.)

 

I've never been thrilled with the tone of carbon or the roughness and
frequent banding of black only prints.   Eboni makes a nice, relatively
neutral deep black, but in the midtones it is not neutral.  The other MIS
carbon inks can make a good semi-sepia on some papers, but I like this
mostly for old photo reproductions.  For a better warm tone, I prefer a bit
more red in the mix and a bit less yellow (natural carbon tone).  The Epson
"carbons" (actually 50% carbons) are too greenish for me.  On the other
hand, the carbon images are the most lightfast.  So, I do factor that into
my preferences, which are leaning to a slightly warm image these days.  If
we could make a carbon only print that was neutral on a paper I liked, I'd
be very happy.

 

With today's technology, I see the K, PK, LK and LLK mostly as the core of
the image, to be altered just a bit by LC and LM (or the like) to get to the
tones I'm interested in. 

 

Paul

www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>  

 

 

  _____  

From: David Keenan

.

> The Black setting on the 4800 and 3800 is using black plus LK and LLK,

>Let's call it "B3".

Paul --

What is your opinion of B3 vs BO prints?

Dave.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

OK, I'm totally confused...

Is the "B3" mode on the 3800 the same as ABW?

I was really hoping for decent BO performance out of the
3800...combined with ABW and the full inkset, it sounded like there
would have been tons of options.

It still sounds like it might be a really good printer...

-- 
Lee Hiers, AA4GA
"Have Dobro Will Travel"

I suspect that BO means grey only i.e. PK/LK/LLK

ABW uses Y, LC,LM as well.

So you still get 3 great choices. BO, ABW and Full colour.

Mike


On 24/12/06, Lee Hiers <lee.hiers@...> wrote:
>
>   OK, I'm totally confused...
>
> Is the "B3" mode on the 3800 the same as ABW?
>
> I was really hoping for decent BO performance out of the
> 3800...combined with ABW and the full inkset, it sounded like there
> would have been tons of options.
>
> It still sounds like it might be a really good printer...
>
> --
> Lee Hiers, AA4GA
> "Have Dobro Will Travel"
> 
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...> wrote:
>
> ... the carbon images are the most lightfast....


That has not proven to be the case with some other inks. I'm concluding from this and other 
issues mentioned over the months that there are more manufacturing differences between 
the brands than most of us realize.

Tyler

Hello Lee,

> OK, I'm totally confused...
> Is the "B3" mode on the 3800 the same as ABW?

Sorry, we are trying to avoid confusion.  The 3800 has a setting
called "Black" which is completely different than ABW.  This Black
mode appears to use just the three carbon inks: MK or PK, plus LK and
LLK, without any color inks mixed in.  That makes it very different
from ABW which does use color inks.

A few people have been erroneously referring to this "Black" mode as
BO, meaning Black Only, which is a mode on other printers which uses
only the black ink.  So to avoid confusion a few of us so far have
agreed to use the term "B3" as a short term to refer to this "Black"
setting.

I hope this helps straighten it out.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Hello Mike,

>I suspect that BO means grey only i.e. PK/LK/LLK
>ABW uses Y, LC,LM as well.
>So you still get 3 great choices. BO, ABW and Full colour.

Yes that's correct, except that to avoid confusing this "Black" mode
with BO, which is something quite different, we are urging everyone to
use the term "B3" rather than "BO".  Please avoid using "BO" for this
3-black mode.  Thanks very much.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

<paul.roark@...> wrote:
>
>> ... the carbon images are the most lightfast....

Tyler wrote:

> That has not proven to be the case with some other inks.
> I'm concluding from this and other issues mentioned over the
> months that there are more manufacturing differences 
> between the brands than most of us realize.

That could well be.

I would also distinguish between "carbon" only and black only.  I was trying
to limit my statement to carbon.  Even the PKN that I've mixed is not pure
carbon and not the most lightfast.  Also, as another example, the Epson
"Archival" inkset black appeared to be a hybrid pigment-dye ink.  It tested
very similarly to the first generation Piezo and MIS blacks, which I believe
had about 8% black dye in them.  One of the problems with Wilhelm testing
is, I believe, that he tests at densities that will not pick up a hybrid
black ink's fading.  That's the only way the old Archival inkset did so
well.

Then again, an "enhanced" black comes to mind that must have had just under
30% dye in it so that, even though the black ink faded and changed color
horribly at first, it would not reach the 30% point at which Wilhelm
measures "display life."

Personally, I think Wilhelm tests are great, but I need to see what the
inkset looks like at about "20 Wilhelm years" of my own testing, at points
that include a 100% black.

I intend to test the Canon inks soon to see how they do.

As an aside, some of the "dye" inkset black inks have been part carbon for
quite a while. 

In addition to hybrid blacks, there is a possibility that the carbon has
been milled so finely that the particles don't have enough size to resist
oxidation for all that long.

Time and testing will tell.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

more comments,

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/piezography3000/message/27416
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/piezography3000/message/27417

merry whatever
Tyler


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...> 
wrote:

>
> <paul.roark@> wrote:
> >
> >> ... the carbon images are the most lightfast....
> 
> Tyler wrote:
> 
> > That has not proven to be the case with some other inks.
> > I'm concluding from this and other issues mentioned over the
> > months that there are more manufacturing differences 
> > between the brands than most of us realize.
> 
> That could well be.
> 
> I would also distinguish between "carbon" only and black only.  I was trying
> to limit my statement to carbon.  Even the PKN that I've mixed is not pure
> carbon and not the most lightfast.  Also, as another example, the Epson
> "Archival" inkset black appeared to be a hybrid pigment-dye ink.  It tested
> very similarly to the first generation Piezo and MIS blacks, which I believe
> had about 8% black dye in them.  One of the problems with Wilhelm testing
> is, I believe, that he tests at densities that will not pick up a hybrid
> black ink's fading.  That's the only way the old Archival inkset did so
> well.
> 
> Then again, an "enhanced" black comes to mind that must have had just under
> 30% dye in it so that, even though the black ink faded and changed color
> horribly at first, it would not reach the 30% point at which Wilhelm
> measures "display life."
> 
> Personally, I think Wilhelm tests are great, but I need to see what the
> inkset looks like at about "20 Wilhelm years" of my own testing, at points
> that include a 100% black.
> 
> I intend to test the Canon inks soon to see how they do.
> 
> As an aside, some of the "dye" inkset black inks have been part carbon for
> quite a while. 
> 
> In addition to hybrid blacks, there is a possibility that the carbon has
> been milled so finely that the particles don't have enough size to resist
> oxidation for all that long.
> 
> Time and testing will tell.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>