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Improving Dmax of NK7 inks

Improving Dmax of NK7 inks

2007-01-07 by david627890

I have used the Cone NK7 inks in an R800 now for some time and haven't 
felt a lack of dmax in my prints except when compared side by side with 
a similar print using MIS Eboni on the same (matt) paper.  The 
smoothness of this inkset has more than made up for this for most 
images though.  Now, however, I would like to try to improve the dmax 
if that is possible.  I use QTR for this printer/inks with the standard 
Cone curves and generally use either Bradford Rag or HM Photorag papers.

Does anyone have any ideas about the best way to do this?  I have seen 
comments about "underprinting" on the site.  Presumably this means 
laying down two inks at the same time on the paper to increase the 
density?  If so is this a sensible approach to take using say the black 
and the next darkest tone?  Would the paper take the additional ink 
load?  Clearly I would have to make my own curves and set the ink 
limits carefully.

Thanks for any thoughts you might have.

David Whistance

Re: [Digital BW] Improving Dmax of NK7 inks

2007-01-07 by Carl Schofield

Why don't you just subsitute MIS Eboni for the NK black ink (Museum  
K?) and then make Create-icc profiles for your papers. I doubt that  
you would need to re-do the QTR curves.

Carl
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Jan 7, 2007, at 1:01 PM, david627890 wrote:

> I have used the Cone NK7 inks in an R800 now for some time and haven't
> felt a lack of dmax in my prints except when compared side by side  
> with
> a similar print using MIS Eboni on the same (matt) paper.  The
> smoothness of this inkset has more than made up for this for most
> images though.  Now, however, I would like to try to improve the dmax
> if that is possible.  I use QTR for this printer/inks with the  
> standard
> Cone curves and generally use either Bradford Rag or HM Photorag  
> papers.
>
> Does anyone have any ideas about the best way to do this?  I have seen
> comments about "underprinting" on the site.  Presumably this means
> laying down two inks at the same time on the paper to increase the
> density?  If so is this a sensible approach to take using say the  
> black
> and the next darkest tone?  Would the paper take the additional ink
> load?  Clearly I would have to make my own curves and set the ink
> limits carefully.
>
> Thanks for any thoughts you might have.
>
> David Whistance
>

Re: Improving Dmax of NK7 inks

2007-01-07 by Tyler Boley

David, there are a number of reasons to underprint K with specific setups, and increased 
Dmax is not necessarily the intention, or the result. It depends on many things, the 
characteristcs of the inks and papers used for starters. Also, your driver may or may not 
have a usable way to accomplish it.
So, even if you can get your setup to do it, results may not be up to expectations. Might, 
might not.
Maybe someone here has tried simply substituting Ebony into that one position, it may be 
the simplest solution. Certainly the easiest to try initially.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "david627890" 
<david.whistance@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> I have used the Cone NK7 inks in an R800 now for some time and haven't 
> felt a lack of dmax in my prints except when compared side by side with 
> a similar print using MIS Eboni on the same (matt) paper.  The 
> smoothness of this inkset has more than made up for this for most 
> images though.  Now, however, I would like to try to improve the dmax 
> if that is possible.  I use QTR for this printer/inks with the standard 
> Cone curves and generally use either Bradford Rag or HM Photorag papers.
> 
> Does anyone have any ideas about the best way to do this?  I have seen 
> comments about "underprinting" on the site.  Presumably this means 
> laying down two inks at the same time on the paper to increase the 
> density?  If so is this a sensible approach to take using say the black 
> and the next darkest tone?  Would the paper take the additional ink 
> load?  Clearly I would have to make my own curves and set the ink 
> limits carefully.
> 
> Thanks for any thoughts you might have.
> 
> David Whistance
>

RE: [Digital BW] Improving Dmax of NK7 inks

2007-01-07 by Paul Roark

With the 220, QTR, Eboni, and Premier Art Matte BW I hit 1.7 with both 1440
and 2880.  The 1440 has lines in it and takes 100% load.  The 2880 is smooth
and hits the dmax before the 100% load.  If you're using 1440, try 2880 and
print a ramp to see where your dmax is.

 

My experience with modern printers is that under-printing only increases
dmax where the  matte black ink is not covering properly.  If the MK is
being properly applied, under-printing always decreases dmax.  QTR (actually
Gimp print, I assume) at 1440 may be one of those situations where the ink
is simply not being properly applied in many if not most situations.  My
solution is to avoid 1440 with QTR (or other Gimp print driver) and avoid
under-printing.

 

If the Cone black ink can't hit the same dmax as the Eboni, why use it?
Eboni is almost certainly compatible with the rest of the Cone inkset and a
lot cheaper.

 

Paul

www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>  

 

 

  _____  
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
david627890
Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2007 10:02 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Improving Dmax of NK7 inks

 

I have used the Cone NK7 inks in an R800 now for some time and haven't 
felt a lack of dmax in my prints except when compared side by side with 
a similar print using MIS Eboni on the same (matt) paper. The 
smoothness of this inkset has more than made up for this for most 
images though. Now, however, I would like to try to improve the dmax 
if that is possible. I use QTR for this printer/inks with the standard 
Cone curves and generally use either Bradford Rag or HM Photorag papers.

Does anyone have any ideas about the best way to do this? I have seen 
comments about "underprinting" on the site. Presumably this means 
laying down two inks at the same time on the paper to increase the 
density? If so is this a sensible approach to take using say the black 
and the next darkest tone? Would the paper take the additional ink 
load? Clearly I would have to make my own curves and set the ink 
limits carefully.

Thanks for any thoughts you might have.

David Whistance 

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Monochrome monitors

2007-01-07 by Mark Savoia

I noticed that Eizo has monochrome monitors, would this work for  
grayscale work better/the same/not as good?

http://www.radiforce.com/en/press/pdf/pr_en_4RadiForceMonitors.pdf

Mark



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Monochrome monitors

2007-01-08 by Richard

I have an Eizo CE240W and work mainly in B&W. I don't know if a dedicated 
one would be better but this one is pretty tough to beat. We sat it side by 
side to the Apple Cinema display and while the Apple one is good, the Eizo 
is just better in the shadow and contrast areas...

At 03:47 PM 1/7/2007, Mark Savoia wrote:
>I noticed that Eizo has monochrome monitors, would this work for
>grayscale work better/the same/not as good?
>
>http://www.radiforce.com/en/press/pdf/pr_en_4RadiForceMonitors.pdf
>
>Mark
>
>

// richard (This email is for mailing lists. To reach me directly, please 
use richard at imagecraft.com)

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Improving Dmax of NK7 inks

2007-01-08 by David Whistance

Tyler

Many thanks for your advice.  It looks as though the solution may be to
substitute an Eboni cartridge, however you have me intrigued.  What would
you generally use underprinting for if it is not to increase Dmax?  How
would you generally underprint?  I am not sure whether this information will
be of use for either of the RIP's that I use; QTR and Bowhaus OPM, however
it might be helpful in future.

Regards and thanks in advance.

David Whistance
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  -----Original Message-----
  From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Tyler
Boley
  Sent: 07 January 2007 20:48
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Improving Dmax of NK7 inks


  David, there are a number of reasons to underprint K with specific setups,
and increased
  Dmax is not necessarily the intention, or the result. It depends on many
things, the
  characteristcs of the inks and papers used for starters. Also, your driver
may or may not
  have a usable way to accomplish it.
  So, even if you can get your setup to do it, results may not be up to
expectations. Might,
  might not.
  Maybe someone here has tried simply substituting Ebony into that one
position, it may be
  the simplest solution. Certainly the easiest to try initially.
  Tyler

  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "david627890"
  <david.whistance@...> wrote:
  >
  > I have used the Cone NK7 inks in an R800 now for some time and haven't
  > felt a lack of dmax in my prints except when compared side by side with
  > a similar print using MIS Eboni on the same (matt) paper. The
  > smoothness of this inkset has more than made up for this for most
  > images though. Now, however, I would like to try to improve the dmax
  > if that is possible. I use QTR for this printer/inks with the standard
  > Cone curves and generally use either Bradford Rag or HM Photorag papers.
  >
  > Does anyone have any ideas about the best way to do this? I have seen
  > comments about "underprinting" on the site. Presumably this means
  > laying down two inks at the same time on the paper to increase the
  > density? If so is this a sensible approach to take using say the black
  > and the next darkest tone? Would the paper take the additional ink
  > load? Clearly I would have to make my own curves and set the ink
  > limits carefully.
  >
  > Thanks for any thoughts you might have.
  >
  > David Whistance
  >



  


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] Improving Dmax of NK7 inks

2007-01-08 by David Whistance

Paul

Many thanks for your advice, I shall try substituting Eboni into the Cone
set and see what happens.

Regards

David Whistance
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  -----Original Message-----
  From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Paul Roark
  Sent: 07 January 2007 23:14
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Improving Dmax of NK7 inks


  With the 220, QTR, Eboni, and Premier Art Matte BW I hit 1.7 with both
1440
  and 2880. The 1440 has lines in it and takes 100% load. The 2880 is smooth
  and hits the dmax before the 100% load. If you're using 1440, try 2880 and
  print a ramp to see where your dmax is.

  My experience with modern printers is that under-printing only increases
  dmax where the matte black ink is not covering properly. If the MK is
  being properly applied, under-printing always decreases dmax. QTR
(actually
  Gimp print, I assume) at 1440 may be one of those situations where the ink
  is simply not being properly applied in many if not most situations. My
  solution is to avoid 1440 with QTR (or other Gimp print driver) and avoid
  under-printing.

  If the Cone black ink can't hit the same dmax as the Eboni, why use it?
  Eboni is almost certainly compatible with the rest of the Cone inkset and
a
  lot cheaper.

  Paul

  www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>

  _____

  From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
  david627890
  Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2007 10:02 AM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: [Digital BW] Improving Dmax of NK7 inks

  I have used the Cone NK7 inks in an R800 now for some time and haven't
  felt a lack of dmax in my prints except when compared side by side with
  a similar print using MIS Eboni on the same (matt) paper. The
  smoothness of this inkset has more than made up for this for most
  images though. Now, however, I would like to try to improve the dmax
  if that is possible. I use QTR for this printer/inks with the standard
  Cone curves and generally use either Bradford Rag or HM Photorag papers.

  Does anyone have any ideas about the best way to do this? I have seen
  comments about "underprinting" on the site. Presumably this means
  laying down two inks at the same time on the paper to increase the
  density? If so is this a sensible approach to take using say the black
  and the next darkest tone? Would the paper take the additional ink
  load? Clearly I would have to make my own curves and set the ink
  limits carefully.

  Thanks for any thoughts you might have.

  David Whistance

  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



  


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Improving Dmax of NK7 inks

2007-01-08 by Tyler Boley

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "David Whistance"
<david.whistance@...> wrote:
>
> Tyler
> 
> Many thanks for your advice.  It looks as though the solution may be to
> substitute an Eboni cartridge, however you have me intrigued.

I was afraid of that <G>.

>  What would
> you generally use underprinting for if it is not to increase Dmax? 

Reasons differ for color or mono inksets. For straight color using a
RIP and CMYK profiles the black point is generally a "build" of CMYK,
and the differences we are seeing here are well worth the efforts over
the RGB driver.

For mono inkets it's very different. Obvioulsy one main reason would
be to investigate a better black dmax as you know. Another may be
longevity. If the K ink changes more than the others, underprinting it
 or "protecting" it with another stable dark gray changes the
longevity characterristics of the black point in the prints, since
it's a build. Another reason may simply be visual, not everything is
determined by specs and it's possible a tinted ink thrown in with the
K may simply make a more beautful print.
Or, none of these things may result, it's a matter of playing around.

> How
> would you generally underprint?

With StudioPrint it's not as flexibale as I would like. In a mono
environment I simply assign another tank to K along with the actual K
ink. Porportions are not user selectable, though layered vrs
distributed dots are.
I don't use K7s, but a dual quad set, so I often have an unused dark
gray ink to utilize. If they are both already in use, there are other
tricks...

>  I am not sure whether this information will
> be of use for either of the RIP's that I use; QTR and Bowhaus OPM,
however
> it might be helpful in future.

I don't know how it may be done with QTR. In some tests long ago it
seemed to be done with the overlap control, but I was frustrated by
the increased dots in other parts of the scale since it's applied
everywhere, not just K. Clearly that control was designed for other
purposes.
With Bowhaus I believe you can literally draw any curve you like with
any ink. In that case I would probably just leave some of the dark
gray in at 100% instead of pulling it all out under the K. That's what
we used to do many years ago making our own partitioning curves and
printing through PressReady in CMYK with a quad set. Many tests were
done to find the best dmax trying different percenatages of K and the
darkest gray. With thse old inks it was usually about 99%K and 75%
dark gray if I recall. Depends on the paper as well of course.
Hope that helps.
Tyler

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Improving Dmax of NK7 inks

2007-01-08 by David Whistance

Tyler

That was really helpful, thank you.  I've clearly got lots to learn!

David Whistance
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  -----Original Message-----
  From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Tyler
Boley
  Sent: 08 January 2007 21:20
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Improving Dmax of NK7 inks


  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "David Whistance"
  <david.whistance@...> wrote:
  >
  > Tyler
  >
  > Many thanks for your advice. It looks as though the solution may be to
  > substitute an Eboni cartridge, however you have me intrigued.

  I was afraid of that <G>.

  > What would
  > you generally use underprinting for if it is not to increase Dmax?

  Reasons differ for color or mono inksets. For straight color using a
  RIP and CMYK profiles the black point is generally a "build" of CMYK,
  and the differences we are seeing here are well worth the efforts over
  the RGB driver.

  For mono inkets it's very different. Obvioulsy one main reason would
  be to investigate a better black dmax as you know. Another may be
  longevity. If the K ink changes more than the others, underprinting it
  or "protecting" it with another stable dark gray changes the
  longevity characterristics of the black point in the prints, since
  it's a build. Another reason may simply be visual, not everything is
  determined by specs and it's possible a tinted ink thrown in with the
  K may simply make a more beautful print.
  Or, none of these things may result, it's a matter of playing around.

  > How
  > would you generally underprint?

  With StudioPrint it's not as flexibale as I would like. In a mono
  environment I simply assign another tank to K along with the actual K
  ink. Porportions are not user selectable, though layered vrs
  distributed dots are.
  I don't use K7s, but a dual quad set, so I often have an unused dark
  gray ink to utilize. If they are both already in use, there are other
  tricks...

  > I am not sure whether this information will
  > be of use for either of the RIP's that I use; QTR and Bowhaus OPM,
  however
  > it might be helpful in future.

  I don't know how it may be done with QTR. In some tests long ago it
  seemed to be done with the overlap control, but I was frustrated by
  the increased dots in other parts of the scale since it's applied
  everywhere, not just K. Clearly that control was designed for other
  purposes.
  With Bowhaus I believe you can literally draw any curve you like with
  any ink. In that case I would probably just leave some of the dark
  gray in at 100% instead of pulling it all out under the K. That's what
  we used to do many years ago making our own partitioning curves and
  printing through PressReady in CMYK with a quad set. Many tests were
  done to find the best dmax trying different percenatages of K and the
  darkest gray. With thse old inks it was usually about 99%K and 75%
  dark gray if I recall. Depends on the paper as well of course.
  Hope that helps.
  Tyler



  


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Improving Dmax of NK7 inks

2007-01-08 by Howard Shaw

Tyler Boley wrote:
...
> I don't know how it may be done with QTR. In some tests long ago it
> seemed to be done with the overlap control, but I was frustrated by
> the increased dots in other parts of the scale since it's applied
> everywhere, not just K. Clearly that control was designed for other
> purposes...

It's easy in qtr - use the copy curve facility. For the ink position you 
wish to do the underprinting select "Copy curve from K". You can then 
adjust the limit independently.

regards
Howard

Re: [Digital BW] Improving Dmax of NK7 inks

2007-01-09 by Ernst Dinkla

Paul Roark wrote:
> With the 220, QTR, Eboni, and Premier Art Matte BW I hit 1.7 with both 1440
> and 2880.  The 1440 has lines in it and takes 100% load.  The 2880 is smooth
> and hits the dmax before the 100% load.  If you're using 1440, try 2880 and
> print a ramp to see where your dmax is.
> 
>  
> 
> My experience with modern printers is that under-printing only increases
> dmax where the  matte black ink is not covering properly.  If the MK is
> being properly applied, under-printing always decreases dmax.  QTR (actually
> Gimp print, I assume) at 1440 may be one of those situations where the ink
> is simply not being properly applied in many if not most situations.  My
> solution is to avoid 1440 with QTR (or other Gimp print driver) and avoid
> under-printing.

I think it is always a compromise with the two highest 
resolutions. The same droplet size will be used and the 
highest resolution will have slightly too much ink and the one 
below it just not enough. Placing of the dots can't compensate 
that enough. I see it on the 9000's with their one droplet 
size and I see it on the 10000 with more droplet sizes. On 
lower resolutions the other droplet sizes may take over but I 
guess it will be in pairs of two resolutions as well. Roy must 
have some understanding of what is selected in droplet size 
over the range of resolutions.

If bidirectional works well on a printer one could try that 
instead of unidirectional, the slightly higher bleeding then 
may suppress the white lines (too little overlap) but at the 
same time a bit less ink is used as in the highest resolution. 
Of course for that you have to select the second highest 
resolution. Most of the time the bidirectional settings is 
less well aligned and the inks are laid down in reversed order 
on the back stroke. The last is probably not a problem with 
quad inks. In color printing it influences the color mix.


Met vriendelijke groeten,Ernst


|  Dinkla Grafische Techniek  |
|     www.pigment-print.com    |
|             ( unvollendet )            |

Re: [Digital BW] Improving Dmax of NK7 inks

2007-01-27 by stephane_bosman

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield <list@...> wrote:
>
> Why don't you just subsitute MIS Eboni for the NK black ink (Museum  
> K?) and then make Create-icc profiles for your papers. I doubt that  
> you would need to re-do the QTR curves.
> 
> Carl

I would not. I quit using MIS because of more frequent cloggings and it was the Ebony that 
created them.

Re: [Digital BW] Improving Dmax of NK7 inks

2007-01-27 by Carl Schofield

Never had a single clog with Eboni in any of my printers over the  
years (1270, 2200, 2400, 4000).
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Jan 27, 2007, at 2:45 PM, stephane_bosman wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield  
> <list@...> wrote:
>>
>> Why don't you just subsitute MIS Eboni for the NK black ink (Museum
>> K?) and then make Create-icc profiles for your papers. I doubt that
>> you would need to re-do the QTR curves.
>>
>> Carl

RE: [Digital BW] Improving Dmax of NK7 inks

2007-01-27 by Paul Roark

Carl Schofield wrote:

>Never had a single clog with Eboni in any of my printers 
>over the years (1270, 2200, 2400, 4000).

I've also found it virtually trouble free.  The only problems I've had were
in printers where dye inks were used previously.  The residual dyes on the
pads caused minor nuisance clogs.  Rinsing the pads with Windex eliminated
the problems.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

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