Yahoo Groups archive

Digital BW, The Print

Index last updated: 2026-04-28 22:56 UTC

Thread

Filmgrain question

Filmgrain question

2007-01-28 by lipshurt@mac.com

this is a very dumb question I am sure, but I have been digital for a long time and never seriously used film.  When I was a kid we had a darkroom at the house but only printed 4x6. I do not remember the size of the grain at various ISO's. I just started getting into film with a nice rangefinder and am surprised that ISO 400 has less resolving power that ISO 200. Is that correct? I did not think there would that big of a diference. I am scanning at 3200 DPI which works great at ISO 200 but everyting is much softer at ISO 400. Is that normal? Thanks putting up with me...Doug M

Re: Filmgrain question

2007-01-28 by djon43

Modern fast films (400, 800 ei) offer incredibly high resolution, but
so did the fast films of yesteryear, such as TriX and Ilford HP3/4,
when rated normally or pushed a stop or two, processed reasonably well
in common developers. Personally, I love Fuji Neopan 400 and I rate it
at 800 in Rodinal...extremely high resolution and/but the grain is
sharply defined by my scanner. 

If you're seeing detail resolution differences between film speeds I
think something other than exposure index is the problem. For example,
something about the development of your faster film could be causing
lots of grain or even reticulation, which could hurt resolution. On
the other hand, people wanting speed have often been encouraged to use
B&W developers that "dissolve grain" (with sodium sulfite,
specifically) and these do reduce resolution...sodium sulfite does
hurt resolution, but some people hate grain so much that they don't
mind losing a little detail. 

If you're seeing resolution differences in small size prints, such as
letter-size, something other than film choice is probably the culprit.

The fact that you mentioned 200ei, a now-uncommon film speed that was
recently popular in Walmart etc (good film..I shot a lot of it) 
suggests you're comparing a modern high resolution color negative film
(or C41 B&W film) with something that's lower resolution, and not
lower just because of speed. The C41-processed color and B&W films are
exceptionally high resolution, though not necessarily as attractive as 
silver-based films, and well processed silver based films can easily
"look" sharper because of sharply defined silver grain. 




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, <lipshurt@...> wrote:
>
> this is a very dumb question I am sure, but I have been digital for
a long time and never seriously used film.  When I was a kid we had a
darkroom at the house but only printed 4x6. I do not remember the size
of the grain at various ISO's. I just started getting into film with a
nice rangefinder and am surprised that ISO 400 has less resolving
power that ISO 200. Is that correct? I did not think there would that
big of a diference. I am scanning at 3200 DPI which works great at ISO
200 but everyting is much softer at ISO 400. Is that normal? Thanks
putting up with me...Doug M
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Filmgrain question

2007-01-29 by Douglas meeuwsen

Wow..thanks...I have been just using the stuff from target, kodak  
gold 200, and kodak MAX 400, both c41. Target charges 94 cents to  
develop a roll, and the rolls are about $1.75. I really only see the  
resolution difference on my computer screen, and maybe a little bit a  
8x10. I really like this minolta rangefinder. I also bought a couple  
film bodies for my minolta 7d lenses. I like the dynamic range of  
film in certain situations better than digital, and also the depth of  
field is a bit more narrow because of the larger "sensor" (film)  
size. ...thanks again, DM


On Jan 28, 2007, at 7:21 AM, djon43 wrote:

> Modern fast films (400, 800 ei) offer incredibly high resolution, but
> so did the fast films of yesteryear, such as TriX and Ilford HP3/4,
> when rated normally or pushed a stop or two, processed reasonably well
> in common developers. Personally, I love Fuji Neopan 400 and I rate it
> at 800 in Rodinal...extremely high resolution and/but the grain is
> sharply defined by my scanner.
>
> If you're seeing detail resolution differences between film speeds I
> think something other than exposure index is the problem. For example,
> something about the development of your faster film could be causing
> lots of grain or even reticulation, which could hurt resolution. On
> the other hand, people wanting speed have often been encouraged to use
> B&W developers that "dissolve grain" (with sodium sulfite,
> specifically) and these do reduce resolution...sodium sulfite does
> hurt resolution, but some people hate grain so much that they don't
> mind losing a little detail.
>
> If you're seeing resolution differences in small size prints, such as
> letter-size, something other than film choice is probably the culprit.
>
> The fact that you mentioned 200ei, a now-uncommon film speed that was
> recently popular in Walmart etc (good film..I shot a lot of it)
> suggests you're comparing a modern high resolution color negative film
> (or C41 B&W film) with something that's lower resolution, and not
> lower just because of speed. The C41-processed color and B&W films are
> exceptionally high resolution, though not necessarily as attractive as
> silver-based films, and well processed silver based films can easily
> "look" sharper because of sharply defined silver grain.
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, <lipshurt@...>  
> wrote:
> >
> > this is a very dumb question I am sure, but I have been digital for
> a long time and never seriously used film. When I was a kid we had a
> darkroom at the house but only printed 4x6. I do not remember the size
> of the grain at various ISO's. I just started getting into film with a
> nice rangefinder and am surprised that ISO 400 has less resolving
> power that ISO 200. Is that correct? I did not think there would that
> big of a diference. I am scanning at 3200 DPI which works great at ISO
> 200 but everyting is much softer at ISO 400. Is that normal? Thanks
> putting up with me...Doug M
> >
>
>
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Filmgrain question

2007-02-01 by Seth

other things being equal. Sorry Doug-

Sensor size has absolutely, positively nothing to do with sensor size.
Digital SLRs have the sensor at the "film plane."  Only the lens and
distance to the subject affect DOF, given the same format. 

The dynamic range of color neg film has always had more dynamic range than
transparency film.  From the outset, shooting digital requires a
"transparency" mentality to expose it correctly.  Slides only had one crack
at it--expose and develop.  Neg has that plus the range of the paper used. 

Seth

==============================================
Posted by: "Douglas meeuwsen" lipshurt@...   lipshurt2002 
Sun Jan 28, 2007 6:22 pm (PST) 
... I like the dynamic range of film in certain situations better than
digital, and also the depth of 
field is a bit more narrow because of the larger "sensor" (film) 
size. ...thanks again, DM

-- 
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.17.12/655 - Release Date: 1/28/2007
13:12

Move to quarantaine

This moves the raw source file on disk only. The archive index is not changed automatically, so you still need to run a manual refresh afterward.