Digital BW, The Print

Hi Everyone,
After years of wet darkroom work I've just made the jump to digital. Where should I begin in 
terms of output. My photoshop skills are good, I've been using it since it came out while I 
was in school, it's just getting decent monochrome prints that are up to the standards I'm use 
to that scares me. Help!
Jason

Hello Jason,

>After years of wet darkroom work I've just made the jump to digital.
>Where should I begin in terms of output. My photoshop skills are
>good, I've been using it since it came out while I was in school, 
>it's just getting decent monochrome prints that are up to the 
>standards I'm use to that scares me. Help!

Welcome to the forum, you have come to the right place for BW
printing.  You haven't told us whether you have purchased a printer
and inks yet, or what they are if you have, so it's kind of hard to
know what to suggest.  

However, please have a look at the series of articles at the link
below.  #1 and #2 are a good overview of the current state of things
and should answer a lot of basic questions.  The others get deeper
into the specifics of various approaches and techniques.

That should help to get started, and let us know if you have any
further questions.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Thanks Clayton,

I've read both of the articles you've mentioned and they were very helpful. In answer to 
your note I haven't purchased any equipment for output at all. I guess my first questions 
should be just that; What are some good starting points in terms of hardware and inks?

Thanks in advance,
Jason

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" <cj@...> wrote:

>
> Hello Jason,
> 
> >After years of wet darkroom work I've just made the jump to digital.
> >Where should I begin in terms of output. My photoshop skills are
> >good, I've been using it since it came out while I was in school, 
> >it's just getting decent monochrome prints that are up to the 
> >standards I'm use to that scares me. Help!
> 
> Welcome to the forum, you have come to the right place for BW
> printing.  You haven't told us whether you have purchased a printer
> and inks yet, or what they are if you have, so it's kind of hard to
> know what to suggest.  
> 
> However, please have a look at the series of articles at the link
> below.  #1 and #2 are a good overview of the current state of things
> and should answer a lot of basic questions.  The others get deeper
> into the specifics of various approaches and techniques.
> 
> That should help to get started, and let us know if you have any
> further questions.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
>

Hello Jason,

>I've read both of the articles you've mentioned and they were very 
>helpful. In answer to your note I haven't purchased any equipment 
>for output at all. I guess my first questions should be just that; 
>What are some good starting points in terms of hardware and inks?

There are lots of good options, but it depends on what you want to do.
 Maybe if you could answer a few basic questions it would help us know
what to recommend...

1) Do you want to make glossy prints (like RC darkroom paper) or matte
prints, or both?

2) Do you want to be able to print BW and color from the printer, or
is a dedicated BW printer ok?

3) What size prints do you want to make (8x10, 11x14, 16x20)?

4) Are you inclined toward a more technical approach (calibrating,
linearizing, plotting curves, using a densitometer, etc) or would you
prefer a simplified approach which avoids much of that?

5) What software will you be using (Photoshop, Elememts, Lightroom,
PSP, PictureWindow)?


If you can answer these we can begin to narrow it down.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Jason,

Sorry, never mind question #5.  I forgot you said your Photoshop
skills are good.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Clayton,

In answer to your questions, I think at most 11x14 prints, that's as large as I blow up 
35mm and they would be strictly B+W. As for glossy or matte prints, I've always used 
graded fibre based papers air dried in the rack. I found RC too glossy and matte papers a 
little flat (I'm not sure that helps). In terms of technical, I'd like to get some decent results 
as soon as I can but be able to tweak the process as my skill/confidence with this new 
medium increases.
I've also just downloaded the Lightroom beta, what are your thoughts?

Cheers,
Jason
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" <cj@...> wrote:

>
> Hello Jason,
> 
> >I've read both of the articles you've mentioned and they were very 
> >helpful. In answer to your note I haven't purchased any equipment 
> >for output at all. I guess my first questions should be just that; 
> >What are some good starting points in terms of hardware and inks?
> 
> There are lots of good options, but it depends on what you want to do.
>  Maybe if you could answer a few basic questions it would help us know
> what to recommend...
> 
> 1) Do you want to make glossy prints (like RC darkroom paper) or matte
> prints, or both?
> 
> 2) Do you want to be able to print BW and color from the printer, or
> is a dedicated BW printer ok?
> 
> 3) What size prints do you want to make (8x10, 11x14, 16x20)?
> 
> 4) Are you inclined toward a more technical approach (calibrating,
> linearizing, plotting curves, using a densitometer, etc) or would you
> prefer a simplified approach which avoids much of that?
> 
> 5) What software will you be using (Photoshop, Elememts, Lightroom,
> PSP, PictureWindow)?
> 
> 
> If you can answer these we can begin to narrow it down.
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
>

Hello Jason,

>In answer to your questions, I think at most 11x14 prints, that's as 
>large as I blow up 35mm

Ok, you'll need a 13" printer.  My recommendation right now is to get
an Epson.  IMO they still offer the greatest versatility (can use a
wide variety of inks plus availability of support products such as
refillable carts).  

>In terms of technical, I'd like to get some decent results as soon 
>as I can but be able to tweak the process as my skill/confidence 
>with this new medium increases.  

Based on this I recommend the 2400.  It's ABW system is essentially a
simplified built in RIP and produces extremely fine BW prints
out-of-the-box.  Using the simple workflow (described in article #9 at
the link below), you will right away get very fine results with very
little fuss.  The 2400 is also very versatile.  Any time you are
ready, it will allow you to experiment with other approaches,
including RIPs (with profiles, curves, densitometers, etc) and a good
selection of other inks.

>As for glossy or matte prints, I've always used graded fibre based 
>papers air dried in the rack. I found RC too glossy and matte papers 
>a little flat (I'm not sure that helps). 

Another reason for recommending the 2400.  There are three general
paper types available now: glossy, matte, and the newer "silver rag"
type papers which are the closest to the ADFBG look.  It sounds like
this is where you'll head.  These papers require the PK black ink, and
the 2400's K3 inks look great on them (very little, if any, bronzing
and gloss differential).  Many of the other inks, which you'd be
required to use with the other models, don't work as well, if at all,
on these papers.


>...and they would be strictly B+W. 

The 2400 will run fine with the various dedicated grayscale ink sets
(requires a RIP) should you decide to go that route.  With the K3 inks
you can do color printing as well as BW.


I hope this helps.  The 2400 and the larger K3 models have radically
changed the BW printing scene.  It has never been easier to get
started from scratch and get gallery quality reaults with a minimal
amount of effort, tears, and frustration.  It's expensive, but IMO is
a great investment.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Clayton,

Once again thank you for your help.
This is a printer I was looking seriously at and you have swayed me.
One question; do you know of any troubles that may arise between this printer and my 
Intel based Mac?

Cheers,
Jason

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" <cj@...> wrote:

>
> Hello Jason,
> 
> >In answer to your questions, I think at most 11x14 prints, that's as 
> >large as I blow up 35mm
> 
> Ok, you'll need a 13" printer.  My recommendation right now is to get
> an Epson.  IMO they still offer the greatest versatility (can use a
> wide variety of inks plus availability of support products such as
> refillable carts).  
> 
> >In terms of technical, I'd like to get some decent results as soon 
> >as I can but be able to tweak the process as my skill/confidence 
> >with this new medium increases.  
> 
> Based on this I recommend the 2400.  It's ABW system is essentially a
> simplified built in RIP and produces extremely fine BW prints
> out-of-the-box.  Using the simple workflow (described in article #9 at
> the link below), you will right away get very fine results with very
> little fuss.  The 2400 is also very versatile.  Any time you are
> ready, it will allow you to experiment with other approaches,
> including RIPs (with profiles, curves, densitometers, etc) and a good
> selection of other inks.
> 
> >As for glossy or matte prints, I've always used graded fibre based 
> >papers air dried in the rack. I found RC too glossy and matte papers 
> >a little flat (I'm not sure that helps). 
> 
> Another reason for recommending the 2400.  There are three general
> paper types available now: glossy, matte, and the newer "silver rag"
> type papers which are the closest to the ADFBG look.  It sounds like
> this is where you'll head.  These papers require the PK black ink, and
> the 2400's K3 inks look great on them (very little, if any, bronzing
> and gloss differential).  Many of the other inks, which you'd be
> required to use with the other models, don't work as well, if at all,
> on these papers.
> 
> 
> >...and they would be strictly B+W. 
> 
> The 2400 will run fine with the various dedicated grayscale ink sets
> (requires a RIP) should you decide to go that route.  With the K3 inks
> you can do color printing as well as BW.
> 
> 
> I hope this helps.  The 2400 and the larger K3 models have radically
> changed the BW printing scene.  It has never been easier to get
> started from scratch and get gallery quality reaults with a minimal
> amount of effort, tears, and frustration.  It's expensive, but IMO is
> a great investment.
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
>

I hate to throw in a monkey wrench in here but has anyone tried the HP
B9180 with black and white. I have heard very mixed reviews. On
another note Epson is releasing the 1400 in a couple of weeks and it
uses the Claria dye based inks. Hopefully we will get some pigment
based inks to use in this printer;) Both of these printers are much
less than a 2400. I would like to upgrade from my Epson C86 with the
MIS-EZ ink set sometime this spring and am trying to find the most
inexpensive way to get the best quality with larger prints. Is it
worth the wait to see how the 1400 works out?

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "jason_copple"
<jasoncopple@...> wrote:
>
> Clayton,
> 
> Once again thank you for your help.
> This is a printer I was looking seriously at and you have swayed me.
> One question; do you know of any troubles that may arise between
this printer and my 
> Intel based Mac?
> 
> Cheers,
> Jason
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones"
<cj@> wrote:

> >
> > Hello Jason,
> > 
> > >In answer to your questions, I think at most 11x14 prints, that's as 
> > >large as I blow up 35mm
> > 
> > Ok, you'll need a 13" printer.  My recommendation right now is to get
> > an Epson.  IMO they still offer the greatest versatility (can use a
> > wide variety of inks plus availability of support products such as
> > refillable carts).  
> > 
> > >In terms of technical, I'd like to get some decent results as soon 
> > >as I can but be able to tweak the process as my skill/confidence 
> > >with this new medium increases.  
> > 
> > Based on this I recommend the 2400.  It's ABW system is essentially a
> > simplified built in RIP and produces extremely fine BW prints
> > out-of-the-box.  Using the simple workflow (described in article #9 at
> > the link below), you will right away get very fine results with very
> > little fuss.  The 2400 is also very versatile.  Any time you are
> > ready, it will allow you to experiment with other approaches,
> > including RIPs (with profiles, curves, densitometers, etc) and a good
> > selection of other inks.
> > 
> > >As for glossy or matte prints, I've always used graded fibre based 
> > >papers air dried in the rack. I found RC too glossy and matte papers 
> > >a little flat (I'm not sure that helps). 
> > 
> > Another reason for recommending the 2400.  There are three general
> > paper types available now: glossy, matte, and the newer "silver rag"
> > type papers which are the closest to the ADFBG look.  It sounds like
> > this is where you'll head.  These papers require the PK black ink, and
> > the 2400's K3 inks look great on them (very little, if any, bronzing
> > and gloss differential).  Many of the other inks, which you'd be
> > required to use with the other models, don't work as well, if at all,
> > on these papers.
> > 
> > 
> > >...and they would be strictly B+W. 
> > 
> > The 2400 will run fine with the various dedicated grayscale ink sets
> > (requires a RIP) should you decide to go that route.  With the K3 inks
> > you can do color printing as well as BW.
> > 
> > 
> > I hope this helps.  The 2400 and the larger K3 models have radically
> > changed the BW printing scene.  It has never been easier to get
> > started from scratch and get gallery quality reaults with a minimal
> > amount of effort, tears, and frustration.  It's expensive, but IMO is
> > a great investment.
> > 
> > Regards,
> > Clayton
> > 
> > 
> > Info on black and white digital printing at    
> > http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
> >
>

Hello Jason,

>Once again thank you for your help.
>This is a printer I was looking seriously at and you have swayed me.
>One question; do you know of any troubles that may arise between 
>this printer and my Intel based Mac?

I really don't know.  I use a PC so I haven't paid any attention to
any of that.  But offhand I don't recall reading about any 2400/Mac
issues. Maybe a 2400/Mac user can pop in here with a report...


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

On Feb 1, 2007, at 2:21 PM, Clayton Jones wrote:

> Hello Jason,
>
>> Once again thank you for your help.
>> This is a printer I was looking seriously at and you have swayed me.
>> One question; do you know of any troubles that may arise between
>> this printer and my Intel based Mac?
>
> I really don't know.  I use a PC so I haven't paid any attention to
> any of that.  But offhand I don't recall reading about any 2400/Mac
> issues. Maybe a 2400/Mac user can pop in here with a report...
>
>
> Regards,
> Clayton

I'm a Mac user, Jason, but not yet a modern-Mac user: for reasons  
that have to do with my prospective use of the Mac more generally, as  
opposed to printing from it, I'm waiting for the next MacBook Pro  
(this spring).

So I don't know either, but I don't remember hearing of any  
MacIntel-2400 problems either. However, asking about this is a good  
way to make your acquaintance with MacInTouch.com and its forums and  
with the MacEpsonList.com, which is also a Yahoo list. Each of them  
seems to me to be a nice complement to this B&W-print list.

Hope this helps and welcome to the list. I'm looking forward to  
seeing your posts about your starting with BW printing.
--
Sam