Digital BW, The Print

In a message dated 2/1/07 12:12:19 PM, sagaface@... writes:


> I have received a couple of emails letting me know that the photos look too 
> dark on
> calibrated monitors (thank you!), and I wanted to address this issue for a 
> moment:
> 
> My images are very dark in general, with high contrast and very little 
> shadow detail by
> design. Printed, they look exactly as they should (thank you Clayton and 
> BO!), matching
> my calibrated monitor to a T. Unfortunately, there is a very fine line 
> between as dark as
> they are and too dark that gets crossed when viewed on differently 
> calibrated monitors, it
> would seem...I'm not sure what to do about this. I'm going to put a thin 
> border on the
> images and see if that helps. So, please let me know if the viewing is 
> improved at all....I
> appreciate it!
> 
Untagged images will be assumed as sRGB   by PC browsers; this should also be 
true on Macs, unfortuantely there images are assumed to the users monitor 
profile instead! So under Windows, a gamma of 2.2 is assumed, and as long as the 
images are in sRGB   or AdobeRGb, or Grayscale gamma 2.2, they should be fine 
(while color images in AdobeRGB will show the wrong saturation in some 
colors). But on a Mac, is the user has the monitor calibrated to gamma 1.8 (a thing 
some Mac users still insist on), then the images will appear incorrectly, if 
they are from a gamma 2.2 space, and untagged. Tagging your images makes them 
take a hair longer to download, and uses a bit more server space, but not enough 
to worry about.

Since your website is setup to not allow images to be downloaded via 
rightclicking, or equivalent, I can't really tell how they are tagged, or not 
tagged...

But on a Mac calibrated to gamma 2.2, without excessive ambient light, and a 
monitor white luminance approprite to my ambient light, your images look 
properly contrasty, properly dark, and properly detailess in the darks. I simply 
assumed, when I saw them, that this was your intent, and that appears to be the 
case. They look just as I would want them to, for dreamy images like these.

Hey, isn't this the list on which I'm accused of being full of bull, and 
never posting anything thats not an ad? Guess I better watch it, I'll ruin that 
reputation if I keep writing general information posts... <G>


C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Very helpful...whoever is accusing you should bite their tongue! Thanks so much for your 
relpy.

My Mac is calibrated to 2.2, though these images are in ProPhoto RGB. should I convert 
them to grayscale? I am just about to go through the hassle  of lightening them all 
up...ugh.

Sarah


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, CDTobie@... wrote:

>
> 
> In a message dated 2/1/07 12:12:19 PM, sagaface@... writes:
> 
> 
> > I have received a couple of emails letting me know that the photos look too 
> > dark on
> > calibrated monitors (thank you!), and I wanted to address this issue for a 
> > moment:
> > 
> > My images are very dark in general, with high contrast and very little 
> > shadow detail by
> > design. Printed, they look exactly as they should (thank you Clayton and 
> > BO!), matching
> > my calibrated monitor to a T. Unfortunately, there is a very fine line 
> > between as dark as
> > they are and too dark that gets crossed when viewed on differently 
> > calibrated monitors, it
> > would seem...I'm not sure what to do about this. I'm going to put a thin 
> > border on the
> > images and see if that helps. So, please let me know if the viewing is 
> > improved at all....I
> > appreciate it!
> > 
> Untagged images will be assumed as sRGB   by PC browsers; this should also be 
> true on Macs, unfortuantely there images are assumed to the users monitor 
> profile instead! So under Windows, a gamma of 2.2 is assumed, and as long as the 
> images are in sRGB   or AdobeRGb, or Grayscale gamma 2.2, they should be fine 
> (while color images in AdobeRGB will show the wrong saturation in some 
> colors). But on a Mac, is the user has the monitor calibrated to gamma 1.8 (a thing 
> some Mac users still insist on), then the images will appear incorrectly, if 
> they are from a gamma 2.2 space, and untagged. Tagging your images makes them 
> take a hair longer to download, and uses a bit more server space, but not enough 
> to worry about.
> 
> Since your website is setup to not allow images to be downloaded via 
> rightclicking, or equivalent, I can't really tell how they are tagged, or not 
> tagged...
> 
> But on a Mac calibrated to gamma 2.2, without excessive ambient light, and a 
> monitor white luminance approprite to my ambient light, your images look 
> properly contrasty, properly dark, and properly detailess in the darks. I simply 
> assumed, when I saw them, that this was your intent, and that appears to be the 
> case. They look just as I would want them to, for dreamy images like these.
> 
> Hey, isn't this the list on which I'm accused of being full of bull, and 
> never posting anything thats not an ad? Guess I better watch it, I'll ruin that 
> reputation if I keep writing general information posts... <G>
> 
> 
> C. David Tobie
> Product Technology Manager
> ColorVision Business Unit
> Datacolor Inc.
> CDTobie@...
> www.colorvision.com
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Hello Sarah, I enjoyed looking at your site. I really liked the images in the 
tanning factory. I use a mac with a Lacie 22in monitor that is calibrated and 
I did not have any problem viewing your images. I know you like the moody 
look to your images and if you lighten them I think it would be a mistake. The 
only thing I would do is to reduce the contrast a bit. See what you think of the 
B&W images on my site. SILVERWORKS IMAGING.    I do not use dig capture I 
shoot film and I scan my negs. 
All my work is done in gray scale.   I am a fine art photographer and printer 
so I am looking for a faithful reproduction of my work.   Thanks for your 
images. Steve Cohen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 2/1/07 1:08:58 PM, sagaface@... writes:


> My Mac is calibrated to 2.2, though these images are in ProPhoto RGB. 
> should I convert
> them to grayscale? I am just about to go through the hassle  of lightening 
> them all
> up...ugh.
> 

Don't post images in ProPhoto; its not a standard space. Use something 
simple, ideally sRGB for the web. And yes, use GrayGamma2.2 instead color, for 
grayscale images (unless they are tinted) as that will make the images a third the 
size, and a third the download time!

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Easy for you to say  :  )

Presumably, the artist found the web display to her liking. That's a lot of
work to mess with - redoing the pics.

On dial-up, I found the load times first rate. IBM has been my web standard
for many years for KISS design.

To avoid perceptual confusion, she might add a grayscale as a component of
the viewing page.

gar

-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
CDTobie@...
Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 11:31 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] My website... darkness notes:



In a message dated 2/1/07 1:08:58 PM, sagaface@... writes:


> My Mac is calibrated to 2.2, though these images are in ProPhoto RGB.
> should I convert
> them to grayscale? I am just about to go through the hassle\ufffd of lightening
> them all
> up...ugh.
>

Don't post images in ProPhoto; its not a standard space. Use something
simple, ideally sRGB for the web. And yes, use GrayGamma2.2 instead color,
for
grayscale images (unless they are tinted) as that will make the images a
third the
size, and a third the download time!

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
Moderators. See \ufffdGroup Topic, Rules and Guidelines\ufffd in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE \ufffdOWNER\ufffd AND
\ufffdMODERATORS\ufffd OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  \ufffdOWNER\ufffd AND
\ufffdMODERATORS\ufffd OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.

Yahoo! Groups Links

Sarah,

>I am just about to go through the hassle of lightening them all 
>up...ugh.

Don't do it!  Your pics look fine just as they are.  And especially
don't do something like that just because someone else thinks they
should be lighter.  I really like your work, and one of the reasons is
it's not imitative.  I look at a lot of photography on line and yours
is very refreshing.  Just keep on following your instincts.  You may
explore other styles someday, but let it be because that's where your
instincts take you.

BTW, I agree that BO is a great way to print these images.  They are
all about what BO is all about: intense blacks, strong contrast and
luminous highlights.  I also see a lot of courage in your work.  Keep
it up, this is good stuff.  I am especially impressed with the
Mortician's Daughter series.  I've bookmarked your site & will be back
now and then for a look.  I hope you will continue to post new stuff.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Thanks so much, Clayton. I was only going to lighten them up just a hair, no worries on 
me ever changing the overall look of my work. I refuse to ever do that. But I take your 
admonition to heart, and appreciate them more than you could know. 

Thank you again...I'll let you know when I post more work!
sarah

p.s. I'm glad you agree about BO with my stuff....it really does look incredible.


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" <cj@...> wrote:

>
> Sarah,
> 
> >I am just about to go through the hassle of lightening them all 
> >up...ugh.
> 
> Don't do it!  Your pics look fine just as they are.  And especially
> don't do something like that just because someone else thinks they
> should be lighter.  I really like your work, and one of the reasons is
> it's not imitative.  I look at a lot of photography on line and yours
> is very refreshing.  Just keep on following your instincts.  You may
> explore other styles someday, but let it be because that's where your
> instincts take you.
> 
> BTW, I agree that BO is a great way to print these images.  They are
> all about what BO is all about: intense blacks, strong contrast and
> luminous highlights.  I also see a lot of courage in your work.  Keep
> it up, this is good stuff.  I am especially impressed with the
> Mortician's Daughter series.  I've bookmarked your site & will be back
> now and then for a look.  I hope you will continue to post new stuff.
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
>

I agree with Clayton, don't change a thing.  Images look great on my 
calibrated monitor, the images are very excellent
and evocative.

Ken

>
>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
> <mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>, "Clayton 
> Jones" <cj@...> wrote:
>
> >
> > Don't do it! Your pics look fine just as they are. And especially
> > don't do something like that just because someone else thinks they
> > should be lighter. I really like your work, and one of the reasons is
> > it's not imitative. I look at a lot of photography on line and yours
> > is very refreshing. Just keep on following your instincts. You may
> > explore other styles someday, but let it be because that's where your
> > instincts take you.
> >
>
>

There seems to be a gap in messages from 11:30am to 4pm. I'm reposting my
message from 2:18pm as it must have been routed to Mars.
............................................

Easy for you to say  :  )

Presumably, the artist found the web display to her liking. That's a lot of
work to mess with - redoing the pics.

On dial-up, I found the load times first rate. IBM has been my web standard
for many years for KISS design.

To avoid perceptual confusion, she might add a grayscale as a component of
the viewing page.

gar

-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
CDTobie@...
Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 11:31 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] My website... darkness notes:



In a message dated 2/1/07 1:08:58 PM, sagaface@... writes:


> My Mac is calibrated to 2.2, though these images are in ProPhoto RGB.
> should I convert
> them to grayscale? I am just about to go through the hassle\ufffd of lightening
> them all
> up...ugh.
>

Don't post images in ProPhoto; its not a standard space. Use something
simple, ideally sRGB for the web. And yes, use GrayGamma2.2 instead color,
for
grayscale images (unless they are tinted) as that will make the images a
third the
size, and a third the download time!

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com

T again..:-)  I support Clayton 100%. Do not change the photos.  It is your individual style so stick with it.  If you change, it is not your work any longer but the work of a committee!! 
   
  If you have a little bit left in the pocketbook, look for some photobooks by the late W. Eugene Smith.  Back when I was doing black and white film photography I emulated his process of using potassium ferricyanide (a poison) to lighten the whites of the print. In this manner one can print for a darker print and bring up the highlights by bleaching the paper.  Finding his books are worth the effort just to study his results. I am not knowledgable about the printing process but Clayton congratulated you on the results obtained with BO printing. Your results are great!!  And without inhaling poisonous fumes in a wet darkroom!!
   
  T

sagaface <sagaface@...> wrote:
          Thanks so much, Clayton. I was only going to lighten them up just a hair, no worries on 
me ever changing the overall look of my work. I refuse to ever do that. But I take your 
admonition to heart, and appreciate them more than you could know. 

Thank you again...I'll let you know when I post more work!
sarah

p.s. I'm glad you agree about BO with my stuff....it really does look incredible.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" <cj@...> wrote:
>
> Sarah,
> 
> >I am just about to go through the hassle of lightening them all 
> >up...ugh.
> 
> Don't do it! Your pics look fine just as they are. And especially
> don't do something like that just because someone else thinks they
> should be lighter. I really like your work, and one of the reasons is
> it's not imitative. I look at a lot of photography on line and yours
> is very refreshing. Just keep on following your instincts. You may
> explore other styles someday, but let it be because that's where your
> instincts take you.
> 
> BTW, I agree that BO is a great way to print these images. They are
> all about what BO is all about: intense blacks, strong contrast and
> luminous highlights. I also see a lot of courage in your work. Keep
> it up, this is good stuff. I am especially impressed with the
> Mortician's Daughter series. I've bookmarked your site & will be back
> now and then for a look. I hope you will continue to post new stuff.
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at 
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
>



         

 
---------------------------------
Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check.
Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Feb 1, 2007, at 3:10 PM, sagaface wrote:

> Thanks so much, Clayton. I was only going to lighten them up just a  
> hair, no worries on
> me ever changing the overall look of my work. I refuse to ever do  
> that. But I take your
> admonition to heart, and appreciate them more than you could know.
>
> Thank you again...I'll let you know when I post more work!
> sarah
>
> p.s. I'm glad you agree about BO with my stuff....it really does  
> look incredible.

Sarah, late to this thread but I'd agree with everyone else so far in  
that I'd leave well enough alone. Your images are striking, thought  
provoking, beautiful.

When I view them on my G5 Mac's Apple Cinema Display they're very  
good looking but when I move them to my calibrated EIZO CG210 they're  
stunning.

Alan

Hi,
I'm just looking at your work again and you are a true artist - the lighting is great, the subject matter makes you think and the use of motion is great.

You are an artist who uses photography rather than a photographer.

Have you considered submitting your work to a magazine such as Aperture or Black and White? It should be published somewhere as well as your web site.

best wishes,
Richard
--
http://smallfield.vze.com
http://photos.smallfield.vze.com (Photos web site)
http://warkworth.vze.com/ (Warkworth photo essay)
http://picasaweb.google.com/rsmallfield/ (Recent work) 

   "How wrong it is for a woman to expect the man to 
   build the world she wants, rather than to create it 
   herself." 
   --Anais Nin (1903-1977)

Of course she is not going to lighten her work.
The issue is that the images were in prophoto, a 1.8 gamma space, and will
look darker when viewed in a 2.2 gamma space e.g., Internet explorer.

When creating images for the web, they should be in sRGB, gray-gamma-2.2, or
correctly tagged.

Best regards,
John Moody

-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Clayton
Jones
Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 5:58 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] My website... darkness notes:

Sarah,

>I am just about to go through the hassle of lightening them all
>up...ugh.

Don't do it! Your pics look fine just as they are. And especially
don't do something like that just because someone else thinks they
should be lighter. I really like your work, and one of the reasons is
it's not imitative. I look at a lot of photography on line and yours
is very refreshing. Just keep on following your instincts. You may
explore other styles someday, but let it be because that's where your
instincts take you.

BTW, I agree that BO is a great way to print these images. They are
all about what BO is all about: intense blacks, strong contrast and
luminous highlights. I also see a lot of courage in your work. Keep
it up, this is good stuff. I am especially impressed with the
Mortician's Daughter series. I've bookmarked your site & will be back
now and then for a look. I hope you will continue to post new stuff.

Regards,
Clayton



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]