Digital BW, The Print

Hi there, long time lurker...and all that.

I'm considering buying a large format printer.  My primary uses (in 
order of importance) would be:
1) Digital negatives for cyanotype/van dyke prints
2) Black and white prints (a secondary use, but I feel I may fall in 
love with this)
3) Color prints (I actually see this as quite rare).

I've just about talked myself in to the piezotone system for black and 
white.  I particularly like the possibility of doing split tone prints.
I am considering a refurbished Epson 1280 (a bargain at $200 after 
rebates).  My next choice would be a refurbished Epson 1800 at about 
$380.

Because I think just about any printer at this quality level can 
handle the demands of my digital negatives, the choice really comes 
down to how well I will like black and white prints made with the 
piezo inks.

So, how good are black and white prints with the 1280 and the 
piezotone system?  Am I likely to regret not getting the 1800 based on 
print quality alone?

Any other recommendations?

Thanks

I can use a CIS with either printer (and if I start printing my own 
black and white, I'll do that), so ink costs should be about the same.

If I were doing digital negatives, I'd be real interested in what the new
Epson 1400 could do.  The general feedback I'm hearing is that it really is
sharper.  

 

See
http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/consumer/consDetail.jsp?BV_UseBVCookie=ye
s
<http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/consumer/consDetail.jsp?BV_UseBVCookie=y
es&oid=63066043> &oid=63066043

 

That printer will not do B&W with those inks, however.

 

You will want glossy paper compatibility.  That might knock out the
Piezotones.

 

 

 

Paul

www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>  

 

 

  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Steve
Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 1:17 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Newbie Printing Questions. Please bear with me.

 

Hi there, long time lurker...and all that.

I'm considering buying a large format printer. My primary uses (in 
order of importance) would be:
1) Digital negatives for cyanotype/van dyke prints
2) Black and white prints (a secondary use, but I feel I may fall in 
love with this)
3) Color prints (I actually see this as quite rare).

I've just about talked myself in to the piezotone system for black and 
white. I particularly like the possibility of doing split tone prints.
I am considering a refurbished Epson 1280 (a bargain at $200 after 
rebates). My next choice would be a refurbished Epson 1800 at about 
$380.

Because I think just about any printer at this quality level can 
handle the demands of my digital negatives, the choice really comes 
down to how well I will like black and white prints made with the 
piezo inks.

So, how good are black and white prints with the 1280 and the 
piezotone system? Am I likely to regret not getting the 1800 based on 
print quality alone?

Any other recommendations?

Thanks

I can use a CIS with either printer (and if I start printing my own 
black and white, I'll do that), so ink costs should be about the same.

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@...> wrote:
>
> If I were doing digital negatives, I'd be real interested in what 
the new
> Epson 1400 could do.  The general feedback I'm hearing is that it 
really is
> sharper.  
> 
>  
> 
> See
> http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/consumer/consDetail.jsp?
BV_UseBVCookie=ye
> s
> <http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/consumer/consDetail.jsp?
BV_UseBVCookie=y
> es&oid=63066043> &oid=63066043
> 
>  
> 
> That printer will not do B&W with those inks, however.
> 
>  
> 
> You will want glossy paper compatibility.  That might knock out the
> Piezotones.
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> Paul
> 
> www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>   _____  
> 
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Steve
> Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 1:17 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Newbie Printing Questions. Please bear with 
me.
> 
>  
> 
> Hi there, long time lurker...and all that.
> 
> I'm considering buying a large format printer. My primary uses (in 
> order of importance) would be:
> 1) Digital negatives for cyanotype/van dyke prints
> 2) Black and white prints (a secondary use, but I feel I may fall 
in 
> love with this)
> 3) Color prints (I actually see this as quite rare).
> 
> I've just about talked myself in to the piezotone system for black 
and 
> white. I particularly like the possibility of doing split tone 
prints.
> I am considering a refurbished Epson 1280 (a bargain at $200 after 
> rebates). My next choice would be a refurbished Epson 1800 at about 
> $380.
> 
> Because I think just about any printer at this quality level can 
> handle the demands of my digital negatives, the choice really comes 
> down to how well I will like black and white prints made with the 
> piezo inks.
> 
> So, how good are black and white prints with the 1280 and the 
> piezotone system? Am I likely to regret not getting the 1800 based 
on 
> print quality alone?
> 
> Any other recommendations?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> I can use a CIS with either printer (and if I start printing my own 
> black and white, I'll do that), so ink costs should be about the 
same.
> 

So, the piezotones don't work on glossy papers?  If so, they must not 
work on OHP....
That would have me switching back and forth between epson color inks 
for digital negatives and piezotones for black and white prints.

Can anyone confirm this?

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@...> wrote:
>
> If I were doing digital negatives, I'd be real interested in what
the new
> Epson 1400 could do.  The general feedback I'm hearing is that it
really is
> sharper.  

The 1400, with the stock inks, should be fine for digital negatives
for UV exposed alternative processes like Steve's Cyanotype and
Vandyke brown.

http://www.hybridphoto.com/forums/showthread.php?t=223

Sandy King measured 1400 transparencies on a UV densitometer (I really
need to get myself one of those) and found Claria hit a density around
1.85, and most alternative processes don't need much more than 1.6. 

Carbon pigment inks exceed 2.4 and can work for any process, that's
why I do my negs on a machine loaded with 100%, 32%, 10%, 3.2%, and 1%
PKN. (As soon as the last of that is gone, the new set uses MIS-PRO
with my own neutralized black, since MIS doesn't want to do PKN with
the PRO inks).

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steve"
<dazedgonebye@...> wrote:
>
> So, the piezotones don't work on glossy papers?  If so, they must not 
> work on OHP....
> That would have me switching back and forth between epson color inks 
> for digital negatives and piezotones for black and white prints.
> 
> Can anyone confirm this?

It depends on how you define "work on OHP".

Piezotones are "matte black" inks. They're really concocted to go
slightly into the surface of a fibrous paper. On a smooth resin coated
paper (or film, like OHP or HGW) they stay on the surface, and have a
"sooty" appearance. They don't bond well to the surface, and can rub
off. A quick coat of "print shield" (or probably even Krylon) can
neutralize that.

The advantage of using a matte black for a digital negative is that
you can build tremendous density, up to about density 4 (I can't
measure 4, I determined it by running 10x as long an exposure with the
digital neg as with the Stofer step wedge).

Personally, I don't find that extreme density useful for any process,
and typically print all my digital negatives without the use of any
"matte black" component.

My own B&W is done with something I cobbled together with two MIS
inks, dilutant, and the glop "gloss coat". For digital negatives, I
use 5 dilutions (100%, 32%, 10%, 3.2%, and 1%) of MIS PKN ("neutral"
carbon black).

For matte papers, those same five PKN dilutions, plus MIS "eboni" as
the matte black. For gloss, the five PKN dilutions plus glop, and no
eboni.

Hey, have I talked to you on another forum recently?

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "koloshor" 
<koloshor@...> wrote:
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steve"
> <dazedgonebye@> wrote:
> >
> > So, the piezotones don't work on glossy papers?  If so, they must 
not 
> > work on OHP....
> > That would have me switching back and forth between epson color 
inks 
> > for digital negatives and piezotones for black and white prints.
> > 
> > Can anyone confirm this?
> 
> It depends on how you define "work on OHP".
> 
> Piezotones are "matte black" inks. They're really concocted to go
> slightly into the surface of a fibrous paper. On a smooth resin 
coated
> paper (or film, like OHP or HGW) they stay on the surface, and have 
a
> "sooty" appearance. They don't bond well to the surface, and can rub
> off. A quick coat of "print shield" (or probably even Krylon) can
> neutralize that.
> 
> The advantage of using a matte black for a digital negative is that
> you can build tremendous density, up to about density 4 (I can't
> measure 4, I determined it by running 10x as long an exposure with 
the
> digital neg as with the Stofer step wedge).
> 
> Personally, I don't find that extreme density useful for any 
process,
> and typically print all my digital negatives without the use of any
> "matte black" component.
> 
> My own B&W is done with something I cobbled together with two MIS
> inks, dilutant, and the glop "gloss coat". For digital negatives, I
> use 5 dilutions (100%, 32%, 10%, 3.2%, and 1%) of MIS PKN ("neutral"
> carbon black).
> 
> For matte papers, those same five PKN dilutions, plus MIS "eboni" as
> the matte black. For gloss, the five PKN dilutions plus glop, and no
> eboni.
> 
> Hey, have I talked to you on another forum recently?

So, it sounds like I'm going to have a hard time doing digital 
negatives with the same printer I would like to have dedicated to 
black and white.  
Switching back and forth from color to piezo sounds like no fun at 
all.  The web site says it's easy, but my limited experience with 
printers would say I'll have a hard time at it.

I'm on several forums, I'm not sure if we've spoken elsewhere.  I'm 
often on rangefinderforum.com and sometimes fredmiranda.  I help 
moderate a small forum for manual focus lenses as well.
>

Koloshor wrote:

> ...

>My own B&W is done with something I cobbled together 
>with two MIS inks, dilutant, and the glop "gloss coat". 
>For digital negatives, I use 5 dilutions (100%, 32%, 
> 10%, 3.2%, and 1%) of MIS PKN ("neutral" carbon black).

By the way, 32% PK is LK; 10% PK is essentially LLK; 3.2% PK is close to the
old PiezoBW quad Y position.  1% PK is ... (barely gray water?)  That's one
very dilute ink.  Do you find it actually ads something to the printing?

I mixed the PKN to get a better dmax on glossy papers.  I wonder what impact
the blended color inks (cyan and R800 blue mixed with the carbon) have on
the digital negative process.  

I'm surprised you find the blend pleasing outside the shadow areas in normal
inkjet printing.  Usually it's a bit cyan outside the shadows.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "koloshor" 
<koloshor@...> wrote:
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
> <paul.roark@> wrote:
> >
> > If I were doing digital negatives, I'd be real interested in what
> the new
> > Epson 1400 could do.  The general feedback I'm hearing is that it
> really is
> > sharper.  
> 
> The 1400, with the stock inks, should be fine for digital negatives
> for UV exposed alternative processes like Steve's Cyanotype and
> Vandyke brown.
> 
> http://www.hybridphoto.com/forums/showthread.php?t=223
> 
> Sandy King measured 1400 transparencies on a UV densitometer (I 
really
> need to get myself one of those) and found Claria hit a density 
around
> 1.85, and most alternative processes don't need much more than 1.6. 
> 
> Carbon pigment inks exceed 2.4 and can work for any process, that's
> why I do my negs on a machine loaded with 100%, 32%, 10%, 3.2%, and 
1%
> PKN. (As soon as the last of that is gone, the new set uses MIS-PRO
> with my own neutralized black, since MIS doesn't want to do PKN with
> the PRO inks).

I imagine piezo inks will eventually be available for the 1400????  
I'm waiting for an answer from the piezo ink people as to whether or 
not I can use their ink system on OHP for my digital negatives.

Hello Steve,

>I imagine piezo inks will eventually be available for the 1400????  
>I'm waiting for an answer from the piezo ink people as to whether or 
>not I can use their ink system on OHP for my digital negatives.

Please trim your posts of all non-relevant verbiage (as I have done
here).  Leaving in the entire thread trail with all it's symbols and
line breaks makes your posts extremely difficult to read.  Thanks very
much.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

I've owned 3 1270/1280s.  All started out OK and gave good results, 
but with use all developed significant clogging issues.  I recently 
switched to an Epson refurbed 1800 and not a single problem after 
running over 700 prints.  The 1800 is "designed for pigment inks and 
is well worth the extra expense. It has a more modern printhead 
design and individual carts -- a significant stepup, imo.  YMMV.

I use Paul Roark's K4+Ccm system based on MIS inks and QTR to 
generate my proiles.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" 
<dazedgonebye@...> wrote:
>
> Hi there, long time lurker...and all that.
> 
> I'm considering buying a large format printer.  My primary uses 
(in 
> order of importance) would be:
> 1) Digital negatives for cyanotype/van dyke prints
> 2) Black and white prints (a secondary use, but I feel I may fall 
in 
> love with this)
> 3) Color prints (I actually see this as quite rare).
> 
> I've just about talked myself in to the piezotone system for black 
and 
> white.  I particularly like the possibility of doing split tone 
prints.
> I am considering a refurbished Epson 1280 (a bargain at $200 after 
> rebates).  My next choice would be a refurbished Epson 1800 at 
about 
> $380.
> 
> Because I think just about any printer at this quality level can 
> handle the demands of my digital negatives, the choice really 
comes 
> down to how well I will like black and white prints made with the 
> piezo inks.
> 
> So, how good are black and white prints with the 1280 and the 
> piezotone system?  Am I likely to regret not getting the 1800 
based on 
> print quality alone?
> 
> Any other recommendations?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> I can use a CIS with either printer (and if I start printing my 
own 
> black and white, I'll do that), so ink costs should be about the 
same.
>