Digital BW, The Print

We took a decision to seek beta testers for our new graduated black ink
set through this forum, in the belief that we would be tapping-in to a
great deal of expertise.

However, I wasn't prepared for the amount of wholly negative comments
that have appeared since posting my initial request.

Let me answer some of the critics:

We are starting with inks for desktop only, as this is potentially the
biggest sector of the market.

We do not use Wilhelm Imaging Research because, like the majority of
companies engaged in ink manufacture, we believe WIR's methodology is
flawed.  WIR only really has a big following in the USA and amongst
OEM's wanting medals for their inks.

We prefer to use the Printing Industry's Research Association
International (PIRAi), which has been in existence for over forty years.
It certainly isn't on the grounds that we can't afford WIR as one of
your contributors has suggested.  Using PIRAi isn't exactly a cheap
option - just a more credible one.

I trust that vast majority of contributors to this forum will excuse
Image Alchemy if it doesn't submit inks for beta testing to those
individuals who have made such negative comments ahead of the release of
the inks, or to it's competitors.

Paul Banks
Image Alchemy Ltd
www.image-alchemy.com
www.image-alchemy.de

I'm not defending your strategy, but none of my sensibilities where offended
by your posts.

The fact that you targeted desktop in your introduction made perfect sense.
I have a 640, a 1270, and a 3000 and they will have to do!! Just like the
old cameras I put up with.

gar

-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
failedthespian
Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2007 9:28 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] New graduated black inks - Image Alchemy's beta
testing


We took a decision to seek beta testers for our new graduated black ink
set through this forum, in the belief that we would be tapping-in to a
great deal of expertise.

However, I wasn't prepared for the amount of wholly negative comments
that have appeared since posting my initial request.

Let me answer some of the critics:

We are starting with inks for desktop only, as this is potentially the
biggest sector of the market.

We do not use Wilhelm Imaging Research because, like the majority of
companies engaged in ink manufacture, we believe WIR's methodology is
flawed.  WIR only really has a big following in the USA and amongst
OEM's wanting medals for their inks.

We prefer to use the Printing Industry's Research Association
International (PIRAi), which has been in existence for over forty years.
It certainly isn't on the grounds that we can't afford WIR as one of
your contributors has suggested.  Using PIRAi isn't exactly a cheap
option - just a more credible one.

I trust that vast majority of contributors to this forum will excuse
Image Alchemy if it doesn't submit inks for beta testing to those
individuals who have made such negative comments ahead of the release of
the inks, or to it's competitors.

Paul Banks
Image Alchemy Ltd
www.image-alchemy.com
www.image-alchemy.de




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--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "failedthespian"
<failedthespian@...> wrote:
>
> We took a decision to seek beta testers for our new graduated black ink
> set through this forum, in the belief that we would be tapping-in to a
> great deal of expertise.
> 

And you turned away a good percentage of that expertise, so where does
that leave you?

> I trust that vast majority of contributors to this forum will excuse
> Image Alchemy if it doesn't submit inks for beta testing to those
> individuals who have made such negative comments ahead of the release of
> the inks, or to it's competitors.


And I trust that when this ink does become available to the lowly scum
like me that you won't mind if I rip it apart (assuming that it
doesn't meet my expectations). I have had ink manufacturers flat out
tell me that there will be/are no problems with their products, when I
already had proof from that companies own printers that a problem
exists. I research my ink choices carefully, and would have done a lot
of good testing for you, providing valuable feedback (as would several
other people that wrote in these threads) on the benefits (if any) and
possible system set up. But you have your target and that's all you
are seeing. I won't bother to send my information to your since you've
already decided that I have nothing to offer. Best of luck with this
project.

Paul, I visited your web site. There is almost nothing there about the 
inkset(s) that you are offering. Mostly marketing stuff. Could you 
describe, what you are offering, for example, for Epson 2100: color 
inkset -- which colors, B/W inkset -- which tones, is it monotone 
inkset or not. It is very important for user to know that your inks are 
produced from the "latest micro-pigments", whatever it is, but how 
about colors? Is there any place I could find this information?
Also, if I don't like to use your Print System, do you offer refillable 
cartridges?

Thanks,
Sergei

We won't release any information on the inks until all testing is
concluded.

The Black Art inks are still in an early stage of development yet.

Paul Banks
Image Alchemy Ltd
www.image-alchemy.com
www.image-alchemy.de

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Sergei Antonov"
<antonovsergei@...> wrote:
>
> Paul, I visited your web site. There is almost nothing there about the
> inkset(s) that you are offering. Mostly marketing stuff. Could you
> describe, what you are offering, for example, for Epson 2100: color
> inkset -- which colors, B/W inkset -- which tones, is it monotone
> inkset or not. It is very important for user to know that your inks
are
> produced from the "latest micro-pigments", whatever it is, but how
> about colors? Is there any place I could find this information?
> Also, if I don't like to use your Print System, do you offer
refillable

> cartridges?
>
> Thanks,
> Sergei
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "failedthespian"
<failedthespian@...> wrote:
>
> We took a decision to seek beta testers for our new graduated black ink
> set through this forum, in the belief that we would be tapping-in to a
> great deal of expertise.
> 
> However, I wasn't prepared for the amount of wholly negative comments
> that have appeared since posting my initial request.
> 
> Let me answer some of the critics:

there is no way, there is not even any way to gracefully back out of
the conversations. I'd say just go back to work.
Will you have samples at PMA? I will look for you there.
Tyler

Interesting, you are asking me to spend my time and use my equipment, 
which potentially could be broken during this test, and don't like to 
tell me a word about your stuff. I don't care about recipe of your 
inks, but I do care about what I will be able to print with it. 

Sergei

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "failedthespian" 
<failedthespian@...> wrote:

>
> We won't release any information on the inks until all testing is
> concluded.
>

Tyler Boley wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "failedthespian"
> <failedthespian@...> wrote:
>   
>> We took a decision to seek beta testers for our new graduated black ink
>> set through this forum, in the belief that we would be tapping-in to a
>> great deal of expertise.
>>
>> However, I wasn't prepared for the amount of wholly negative comments
>> that have appeared since posting my initial request.
>>
>> Let me answer some of the critics:
>>     
>
> there is no way, there is not even any way to gracefully back out of
> the conversations. I'd say just go back to work.
> Will you have samples at PMA? I will look for you there.
> Tyler
>   
You got that right.

What's interesting to me about this is the way this and other groups 
just beat the hell out of vendors. Then they complain that vendors don't 
participate in the groups. Hmmm... I think I can figure that one out. I 
know if I was a vendor I wouldn't say word one on any of these groups, 
based on what I see the groups do to vendors who dare stick their toes 
in the water. Sadly it's clear that the water isn't safe for everyone.
--
Bruce Watson

Hi Paul,

 

On the B&W forum you wrote, in part: "The Black Art inks are still in an
early stage of development yet."

 

 

Take a close look at the charts at the bottom of
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/4K+.pdf , not to mention the general
approach (which is not entirely outlined in the pdf).

 

I'm not sure there is any way to solve the separation problem not only in a
large format printers but also in continuous feed systems.

 

To be honest, I think the market is moving away from blended B&W inksets,
and for some good reasons.  Roy Harrington and I will be pursuing a k3-type
arrangement (K, LK, LLK, LM, LC & Y) that will be easy to profile for ALL
Epson hextone and better printers - and for all inksets that use these
standard inks.  The best inks will win in such an "open source" approach.
That's not very attractive to existing third party companies in the market,
but I think it is the future, unless, of course, you can come up with a
neutral inkset that is not a blend.  (Epson's latest LK appears to be moving
in that direction, but slowly and poorly.)

 

Additionally, I believe the newer profiling system may be able to profile
printers with standard inks in them, but that profiling would be for neutral
only.  (Here the LK and LLK would simply replace the M channel, with the LM
in the Y spot.  Print Fix Pro can, in fact, profile a "twisted" space.)

 

I'm not at all trying to discourage you from coming up with a new blended
inkset, but I personally think the support costs that are attributable to
the problems of such make them a bad investment.  I know of one company that
had a 100% return rate with blended B&W continuous flow systems.  That kind
of experience can wipe out invested capital and good will real fast.

 

At any rate, good luck with the inks.

 

Paul

www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>  

 

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'll second that.

Walt

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Greg [mailto:dfaprinting@...]
>Sent: Sunday, March 4, 2007 07:17 AM
>To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [Digital BW] Re: New graduated black inks - Image Alchemy's beta testing
>
>--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "failedthespian"
><failedthespian@...> wrote:
>>
>> We took a decision to seek beta testers for our new graduated black ink
>> set through this forum, in the belief that we would be tapping-in to a
>> great deal of expertise.
>> 
>
>And you turned away a good percentage of that expertise, so where does
>that leave you?
>
>> I trust that vast majority of contributors to this forum will excuse
>> Image Alchemy if it doesn't submit inks for beta testing to those
>> individuals who have made such negative comments ahead of the release of
>> the inks, or to it's competitors.
>
>
>And I trust that when this ink does become available to the lowly scum
>like me that you won't mind if I rip it apart (assuming that it
>doesn't meet my expectations). I have had ink manufacturers flat out
>tell me that there will be/are no problems with their products, when I
>already had proof from that companies own printers that a problem
>exists. I research my ink choices carefully, and would have done a lot
>of good testing for you, providing valuable feedback (as would several
>other people that wrote in these threads) on the benefits (if any) and
>possible system set up. But you have your target and that's all you
>are seeing. I won't bother to send my information to your since you've
>already decided that I have nothing to offer. Best of luck with this
>project.
>
>
>
>
>Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
>
>Please follow these basic guidelines:
>- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
>- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
>- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
>- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the Files section:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
>BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Hi Bruce;

I can't speak for other groups and other occassions, but at least in 
this case the gentleman brought this on himself: He asked for beta 
testers, we asked for more information, he dissembled and ignored our 
requests. I don't think wanting more info before going to the trouble 
and risk of trying his product is unreasonable, and if he'd answered 
even a few basic questions at the beginning, he might have received a 
much better response. 

> What's interesting to me about this is the way this and other groups 
> just beat the hell out of vendors. Then they complain that vendors 
don't 
> participate in the groups.

There are quite a few vendors who do, or at least monitor and respond 
to questions related to their products. Diane York of Hawk Mountain, 
for one, Jim Doyle, CD Tobie, and others from time to time. The vendors 
that tell us what we need to know without givings us a 'hard-sell' or 
run-around get our respect and thanks. As for the rest of them... 
well...Tempus Fugit, amigo, we all have better things to do.

Regards,

Steve Karafyllakis

Paul Roark wrote:

> Take a close look at the charts at the bottom of
> http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/4K+.pdf , not to mention the general
> approach (which is not entirely outlined in the pdf).
> 
>  
> 
> I'm not sure there is any way to solve the separation problem not only in a
> large format printers but also in continuous feed systems.

With the MIS inks it is a problem. Strange enough I could keep 
a sepia mix of the old Epson Archival pigment LM + Y very 
stable in the 9000 quad with my CIS system and that one has 
thick tubes and bottles. About the only ink that remained stable.

> To be honest, I think the market is moving away from blended B&W inksets,
> and for some good reasons.  Roy Harrington and I will be pursuing a k3-type
> arrangement (K, LK, LLK, LM, LC & Y) that will be easy to profile for ALL
> Epson hextone and better printers - and for all inksets that use these
> standard inks.  The best inks will win in such an "open source" approach.
> That's not very attractive to existing third party companies in the market,
> but I think it is the future, unless, of course, you can come up with a
> neutral inkset that is not a blend.  (Epson's latest LK appears to be moving
> in that direction, but slowly and poorly.)

It has been discussed before and I shared your view on this. 
There's another thing happening as well, the dithering/weaving 
on the latest wide formats is based on single sized droplets 
of 3.5 - 6 picoliter over the entire tone range. The gradual 
steps seem to get better by changing the droplet rate at that 
size than by using droplet size steps. Shadow detail could 
benefit too of that method. While 6 -7 B&W inksets more or 
less default to a similar use of the smallest droplet size in 
QTR (but the black at 100% will still have the max droplet 
size) in quad and lower number ink sets the droplet size 
variation will be used in the 9800 and older generations. It 
could be different in the new generations and by that some of 
the 6-7 smoothness aspects will transfer to the K3-K4 ink 
sets. The new Canon and HP models have that single droplet 
size per head, it looks like the Epson 3800 relies more on 
droplet frequency too:

http://www.inkjetart.com/3800/
samples at halfway

I have no idea how the HP Z3100 achieves a neutral Kkkk set, 
either a blend, a top coated carbon pigment particle or better 
than both but it tested well in the end on fading. The cart 
size of 130 ml may prove to be a blessing in disguise if 
separation is an issue but I doubt that.

Met vriendelijke groeten,  Ernst


|  Dinkla Grafische Techniek  |
|     www.pigment-print.com    |
|             ( unvollendet )            |

Hi Ernst,


>> Take a close look at the charts at the bottom of
>> http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/4K+.pdf , ...
>> I'm not sure there is any way to solve the separation 
>> problem not only in a large format printers but also 
>> in continuous feed systems.

> ... Strange enough I could keep 
> a sepia mix of the old Epson Archival pigment
> LM + Y very stable ...  About the only ink that remained stable.

I'm suspicious that the separation issue could be less of a problem with
coated pigments.  One person I discussed the issue with felt that what was
going on was differential affinities among the particles and materials used
in the printers -- in particular the tubing.  I don't have enough chemistry
background to evaluate this, but I think what he was saying is that the
different types of pigment particles have different electrostatic
attractions to, in particular, the material the tubes are made of.  Perhaps
the coating tends to equalize this???  This theory is obviously speculation.


I tend to simply focus on the bottom line.  Although I was able to reverse
one tone shift by altering the base formula, when I corrected for one Lab
axis, the other one became unstable.  I concluded that with enough time I
could probably achieve a reasonable balance for an ink that had 2 different
pigments in it, but the addition of a third pigment type probably would make
the job virtually impossible.  

As a practical matter, life is too short to mess with this problem.  The
printers are now good enough that the marginal improvements in smoothness
and even more marginal (if any) improvements in lightfastness of the blended
inksets are, for me, no longer worth the cost in terms of stability,
inability to select the best pigment for each spot, and QC issues.  Frankly,
I also found that it was simpler to profile rip systems with non-blended
inksets.  So, while I think the C88 EZ, R2, and other desktop monotone
inksets are worth the effort, the UT-3D is probably my last blended variable
tone inkset.  

Particularly since I expect the 3800 - a large format design - to grab a
significant part of the serious amateur photo market, I don't want to have
the stability issues come back to haunt me on the scale I expect that
printer to be sold.  Current large format printers in the hands of service
bureau experts who use the machines regularly minimizes the problem.
Imagine the magnitude of the issue if legions of amateurs have 3800s sitting
idle most of the time with a blended inkset.    

Marketing a pre-filled continuous flow system with a blended inkset through
retail stores, where the units sit on the shelves or in inventory for weeks
or months, is also not a position I'd wish on anyone.  The blended inksets
in large format or continuous flow systems only work well when they are
regularly used.  My experience is that when they sit idle the inks separate
(and worse in some continuous flow systems).

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com