Digital BW, The Print

1) I wonder how many have totally abandoned darkrooms, or yearn to
reopen them?  My Leica and Durst enlargers are gathering dust and
costing storage space, and I've got some great trays. All I need is
space, and I can find that. Are there people who prefer computers to
darkrooms?   

2) Harman paper costs around $2ea in letter size. Oriental
fiber/silver/glossy/graded costs around $1.75ea in 11X14. Of course
there's pigment Vs chem/water/lamps costs to be considered...and
there's the inevitable discard of outdated inkjet printers. My Durst
609 was new-old-stock when I bought it in 1970 and my Leica's older.

3) Might be smart for Harman paper to work well with Epson pigments
only. And Epson doesn't actually make Epson paper... hmmm. Harman
might be smart to consider a buyout, Vs enslavement to Epson, 
especially if their coating concept confronts newer, better, less
expensive concepts. Then again, Ilford, which already had distribution
in place and a much-loved brand, surely must have done that
calculation? I wonder if they saw handwriting on the wall for coated
inkjet papers?

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "djon43"
<djon43@...> wrote:
SNIP
> 3) Might be smart for Harman paper to work well with Epson pigments
> only. And Epson doesn't actually make Epson paper... hmmm. Harman
> might be smart to consider a buyout, Vs enslavement to Epson, 
> especially if their coating concept confronts newer, better, less
> expensive concepts. Then again, Ilford, which already had distribution
> in place and a much-loved brand, surely must have done that
> calculation? I wonder if they saw handwriting on the wall for coated
> inkjet papers?
>

Harman is the British employee "buy out" group. They "should" know
what they are doing when it comes to B&W papers, chemistry, film, etc.

The new Ilford, has had many millions of dollars infused in upgrading
their paper coating facility in Switzerland. But, they have pretty
much eliminated their old US marketing and distribution company. All
the old sales people are gone. Closed their Bingham, NY shipping &
distribution, Closed their New Jersey office. New US headquarters is
in the Boston area. Distribution is through a 3rd party now.

I imagine most of Ilford's inkjet paper is sold as OEM for HP, Epson
and Canon. 

John Nollendorfs

Not to pick nits, but no Swiss "Ilford factory" seems to exist. The
old company's bankruptcy receiver evidently sold it to Oji (mentioned
first by "Ilford" in 2004). 

http://www.ilford.com/html/us_english/pr/0605pruts.html
http://www.kanzakiusa.com/news/Imaging%20Switzerland.pdf  
http://www.ojipaper.co.jp/english/news/2005/release_20050704.html

Today's version of "Ilford" in Mobberly seems to be blowing smoke when
hinting factory ownership by former Ilfordites. Logically some do
consult to Oji, but as I read it they only own the residual Mobberly
company unless they got Oji shares in the deal. 

Oji paper manufacturing began in Japan 1873 ...their stated business
plan today is based on Asian manufacturing (giant new factories in
Thailand, Indonesia etc) and international distribution. And who
logically operates factories in Switzerland, after all? Rochester
would make more sense :-)

Presumably Oji will introduce something better and cheaper (better
Dmax, no coating baryta or otherwise) for people who want the
"air-dried-glossy" look.



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "sinar001"
<jnolly@...> wrote:

>

> >
> 
> Harman is the British employee "buy out" group. They "should" know
> what they are doing when it comes to B&W papers, chemistry, film, etc.
> 
> The new Ilford, has had many millions of dollars infused in upgrading
> their paper coating facility in Switzerland. But, they have pretty
> much eliminated their old US marketing and distribution company. All
> the old sales people are gone. Closed their Bingham, NY shipping &
> distribution, Closed their New Jersey office. New US headquarters is
> in the Boston area. Distribution is through a 3rd party now.
> 
> I imagine most of Ilford's inkjet paper is sold as OEM for HP, Epson
> and Canon. 
> 
> John Nollendorfs
>

There are plenty of people who are quite rabid about staying with
"traditional" photographic products. You might want to consider
selling those enlargers someplace like APUG:
http://www.apug.org/forums/forum13/

Hi John -

You wrote:

"Closed their Bingham, NY shipping & distribution, Closed their New Jersey
office. New US headquarters is in the Boston area. Distribution is through a
3rd party now."

Their September 2006 press release said that the headquarters was in NJ.
What makes you believe it to be in the Boston area? (I'm not saying you're
wrong... I just couldn't find any evidence of that. Im an industry
consultant and if it's in Boston (my backyard) I'd like to know.)

Thanks,

Rick

Hi Rick...wasn't me... Sinar001 mentioned Boston. 

The way I read it, 1) NO "Ilford" appears to remain in the paper biz
(maybe film and paper) 2) the Swiss factory is owned by Oji, a huge
Japanese company 3)"Harman" is the buy out group's name for what
appears to be a technical design, branding, and distribution company. 

My guess is that Oji manufactures paper for Harman, which might be
good news for everybody because Harman could also contract with 
cheaper paper manufacturing/coating operations globally (such as in
China or Eastern Europe), which would lower prices.

If the "buy out" group played a role in Oji's purchase of the Swiss
factory, it might have been as former Ilford executives facilitating
the deal as front men. Their payoff might have been the "Harman" name
and rights to technology (eg baryta) they created while still working
for the late lamented Ilford. 

Whew. That kind of thing was common in the US during the Reagan years,
but junk bonds were used back then, whereas the Japanese would have
used "carry trade" money, an entirely different game.



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Rick Colson
<colson@...> wrote:
>
> Hi John -
> 
> You wrote:
> 
> "Closed their Bingham, NY shipping & distribution, Closed their New
Jersey
> office. New US headquarters is in the Boston area. Distribution is
through a
> 3rd party now."
> 
> Their September 2006 press release said that the headquarters was in NJ.
> What makes you believe it to be in the Boston area? (I'm not saying
you're

> wrong... I just couldn't find any evidence of that. Im an industry
> consultant and if it's in Boston (my backyard) I'd like to know.)
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Rick
>

To make it perfectly clear, which it doesn't seem to be--
Ilford, is a division of Oji. Their US offices are in Springfield, Mass.

Harman, (the Ilford Executives buyout group in England) markets the
B&W paper and film only under the Ilford name . Their inkjet offerings
are their own development & manufacturing, marketed under the Harman
name, according to Gregg LaNoue of Ilford.

Could not tell you where Harman's US offices are.

John Nollendorfs
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "djon43"
<djon43@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Rick...wasn't me... Sinar001 mentioned Boston. 
> 
> The way I read it, 1) NO "Ilford" appears to remain in the paper biz
> (maybe film and paper) 2) the Swiss factory is owned by Oji, a huge
> Japanese company 3)"Harman" is the buy out group's name for what
> appears to be a technical design, branding, and distribution company. 
> 
> My guess is that Oji manufactures paper for Harman, which might be
> good news for everybody because Harman could also contract with 
> cheaper paper manufacturing/coating operations globally (such as in
> China or Eastern Europe), which would lower prices.
> 
> If the "buy out" group played a role in Oji's purchase of the Swiss
> factory, it might have been as former Ilford executives facilitating
> the deal as front men. Their payoff might have been the "Harman" name
> and rights to technology (eg baryta) they created while still working
> for the late lamented Ilford. 
> 
> Whew. That kind of thing was common in the US during the Reagan years,
> but junk bonds were used back then, whereas the Japanese would have
> used "carry trade" money, an entirely different game.
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Rick Colson
> <colson@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi John -
> > 
> > You wrote:
> > 
> > "Closed their Bingham, NY shipping & distribution, Closed their New
> Jersey
> > office. New US headquarters is in the Boston area. Distribution is
> through a
> > 3rd party now."
> > 
> > Their September 2006 press release said that the headquarters was
in NJ.

> > What makes you believe it to be in the Boston area? (I'm not saying
> you're
> > wrong... I just couldn't find any evidence of that. Im an industry
> > consultant and if it's in Boston (my backyard) I'd like to know.)
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > 
> > Rick
> >
>

John N, thanks. Whew again. What you've added seems 90% consistent
with my convoluted analysis. I'm sure you're right and I was wrong
about the survival of the Ilford brand and silver paper, though I
might be right about where it's going to be manufactured. If I was Oji
I'd certainly want Americans to think of me as an old European company
with a Swiss factory :-) 

I doubt coated papers have much of a future for fine inkjet...I think
they'll be replaced by new concepts.  


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "sinar001"
<jnolly@...> wrote:

>
> To make it perfectly clear, which it doesn't seem to be--
> Ilford, is a division of Oji. Their US offices are in Springfield, Mass.
> 
> Harman, (the Ilford Executives buyout group in England) markets the
> B&W paper and film only under the Ilford name . Their inkjet offerings
> are their own development & manufacturing, marketed under the Harman
> name, according to Gregg LaNoue of Ilford.
> 
> Could not tell you where Harman's US offices are.
> 
> John Nollendorfs
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "djon43"
> <djon43@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Rick...wasn't me... Sinar001 mentioned Boston. 
> > 
> > The way I read it, 1) NO "Ilford" appears to remain in the paper biz
> > (maybe film and paper) 2) the Swiss factory is owned by Oji, a huge
> > Japanese company 3)"Harman" is the buy out group's name for what
> > appears to be a technical design, branding, and distribution company. 
> > 
> > My guess is that Oji manufactures paper for Harman, which might be
> > good news for everybody because Harman could also contract with 
> > cheaper paper manufacturing/coating operations globally (such as in
> > China or Eastern Europe), which would lower prices.
> > 
> > If the "buy out" group played a role in Oji's purchase of the Swiss
> > factory, it might have been as former Ilford executives facilitating
> > the deal as front men. Their payoff might have been the "Harman" name
> > and rights to technology (eg baryta) they created while still working
> > for the late lamented Ilford. 
> > 
> > Whew. That kind of thing was common in the US during the Reagan years,
> > but junk bonds were used back then, whereas the Japanese would have
> > used "carry trade" money, an entirely different game.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Rick Colson
> > <colson@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi John -
> > > 
> > > You wrote:
> > > 
> > > "Closed their Bingham, NY shipping & distribution, Closed their New
> > Jersey
> > > office. New US headquarters is in the Boston area. Distribution is
> > through a
> > > 3rd party now."
> > > 
> > > Their September 2006 press release said that the headquarters was
> in NJ.
> > > What makes you believe it to be in the Boston area? (I'm not saying
> > you're
> > > wrong... I just couldn't find any evidence of that. Im an industry
> > > consultant and if it's in Boston (my backyard) I'd like to know.)
> > > 
> > > Thanks,
> > > 
> > > Rick
> > >
> >
>

Ilford had a paper coating facility in Great Britain.(coated both
inkjet & silver papers) I'm not sure if they coated their film there
also. These British facilities are now owned by Harman. AFAIK, they
are using these facilities to manufacture their inkjet line also, not
contracting the coating out.

As for inkjet papers, it is interesting how these are evolving. If the
companies see any potential market, they seem to be developing these
niche products. It sure would be great if they could develop a true
air-dried non RC paper look. 

John Nollendorfs




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "djon43"
<djon43@...> wrote:
>
> John N, thanks. Whew again. What you've added seems 90% consistent
> with my convoluted analysis. I'm sure you're right and I was wrong
> about the survival of the Ilford brand and silver paper, though I
> might be right about where it's going to be manufactured. If I was Oji
> I'd certainly want Americans to think of me as an old European company
> with a Swiss factory :-) 
> 
> I doubt coated papers have much of a future for fine inkjet...I think
> they'll be replaced by new concepts.  
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "sinar001"
> <jnolly@> wrote:
> >
> > To make it perfectly clear, which it doesn't seem to be--
> > Ilford, is a division of Oji. Their US offices are in Springfield,
Mass.
> > 
> > Harman, (the Ilford Executives buyout group in England) markets the
> > B&W paper and film only under the Ilford name . Their inkjet offerings
> > are their own development & manufacturing, marketed under the Harman
> > name, according to Gregg LaNoue of Ilford.
> > 
> > Could not tell you where Harman's US offices are.
> > 
> > John Nollendorfs
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "djon43"
> > <djon43@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Rick...wasn't me... Sinar001 mentioned Boston. 
> > > 
> > > The way I read it, 1) NO "Ilford" appears to remain in the paper biz
> > > (maybe film and paper) 2) the Swiss factory is owned by Oji, a huge
> > > Japanese company 3)"Harman" is the buy out group's name for what
> > > appears to be a technical design, branding, and distribution
company. 
> > > 
> > > My guess is that Oji manufactures paper for Harman, which might be
> > > good news for everybody because Harman could also contract with 
> > > cheaper paper manufacturing/coating operations globally (such as in
> > > China or Eastern Europe), which would lower prices.
> > > 
> > > If the "buy out" group played a role in Oji's purchase of the Swiss
> > > factory, it might have been as former Ilford executives facilitating
> > > the deal as front men. Their payoff might have been the "Harman"
name
> > > and rights to technology (eg baryta) they created while still
working
> > > for the late lamented Ilford. 
> > > 
> > > Whew. That kind of thing was common in the US during the Reagan
years,
> > > but junk bonds were used back then, whereas the Japanese would have
> > > used "carry trade" money, an entirely different game.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Rick Colson
> > > <colson@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi John -
> > > > 
> > > > You wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > "Closed their Bingham, NY shipping & distribution, Closed
their New
> > > Jersey
> > > > office. New US headquarters is in the Boston area. Distribution is
> > > through a
> > > > 3rd party now."
> > > > 
> > > > Their September 2006 press release said that the headquarters was
> > in NJ.
> > > > What makes you believe it to be in the Boston area? (I'm not
saying

> > > you're
> > > > wrong... I just couldn't find any evidence of that. Im an industry
> > > > consultant and if it's in Boston (my backyard) I'd like to know.)
> > > > 
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > 
> > > > Rick
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Thanks, good info about Harman/GB factories. With your additional
tidbits I may now be no more than 25% right :-)

The most silver-looking inkjet paper I know of is Costco Kirkland, 
unfortunately only available lettersized/glossy. Works well with
MIS-UT7 / 2200 / Epson driver. Very cheap, too. 



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "sinar001"
<jnolly@...> wrote:
>
> Ilford had a paper coating facility in Great Britain.(coated both
> inkjet & silver papers) I'm not sure if they coated their film there
> also. These British facilities are now owned by Harman. AFAIK, they
> are using these facilities to manufacture their inkjet line also, not
> contracting the coating out.
> 
> As for inkjet papers, it is interesting how these are evolving. If the
> companies see any potential market, they seem to be developing these
> niche products. It sure would be great if they could develop a true
> air-dried non RC paper look. 
> 
> John Nollendorfs
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "djon43"
> <djon43@> wrote:
> >
> > John N, thanks. Whew again. What you've added seems 90% consistent
> > with my convoluted analysis. I'm sure you're right and I was wrong
> > about the survival of the Ilford brand and silver paper, though I
> > might be right about where it's going to be manufactured. If I was Oji
> > I'd certainly want Americans to think of me as an old European company
> > with a Swiss factory :-) 
> > 
> > I doubt coated papers have much of a future for fine inkjet...I think
> > they'll be replaced by new concepts.  
> > 
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "sinar001"
> > <jnolly@> wrote:
> > >
> > > To make it perfectly clear, which it doesn't seem to be--
> > > Ilford, is a division of Oji. Their US offices are in Springfield,
> Mass.
> > > 
> > > Harman, (the Ilford Executives buyout group in England) markets the
> > > B&W paper and film only under the Ilford name . Their inkjet
offerings
> > > are their own development & manufacturing, marketed under the Harman
> > > name, according to Gregg LaNoue of Ilford.
> > > 
> > > Could not tell you where Harman's US offices are.
> > > 
> > > John Nollendorfs
> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "djon43"
> > > <djon43@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi Rick...wasn't me... Sinar001 mentioned Boston. 
> > > > 
> > > > The way I read it, 1) NO "Ilford" appears to remain in the
paper biz
> > > > (maybe film and paper) 2) the Swiss factory is owned by Oji, a
huge
> > > > Japanese company 3)"Harman" is the buy out group's name for what
> > > > appears to be a technical design, branding, and distribution
> company. 
> > > > 
> > > > My guess is that Oji manufactures paper for Harman, which might be
> > > > good news for everybody because Harman could also contract with 
> > > > cheaper paper manufacturing/coating operations globally (such
as in
> > > > China or Eastern Europe), which would lower prices.
> > > > 
> > > > If the "buy out" group played a role in Oji's purchase of the
Swiss
> > > > factory, it might have been as former Ilford executives
facilitating
> > > > the deal as front men. Their payoff might have been the "Harman"
> name
> > > > and rights to technology (eg baryta) they created while still
> working
> > > > for the late lamented Ilford. 
> > > > 
> > > > Whew. That kind of thing was common in the US during the Reagan
> years,
> > > > but junk bonds were used back then, whereas the Japanese would
have
> > > > used "carry trade" money, an entirely different game.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Rick Colson
> > > > <colson@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi John -
> > > > > 
> > > > > You wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > "Closed their Bingham, NY shipping & distribution, Closed
> their New
> > > > Jersey
> > > > > office. New US headquarters is in the Boston area.
Distribution is
> > > > through a
> > > > > 3rd party now."
> > > > > 
> > > > > Their September 2006 press release said that the
headquarters was
> > > in NJ.
> > > > > What makes you believe it to be in the Boston area? (I'm not
> saying
> > > > you're
> > > > > wrong... I just couldn't find any evidence of that. Im an
industry
> > > > > consultant and if it's in Boston (my backyard) I'd like to
know.)

> > > > > 
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > 
> > > > > Rick
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Harman say:

"HARMAN technology has been developing other aspects of business which 
take full advantage of the highly sophisticated plant at its 
headquarters in Mobberley, UK, including the development of HARMAN PHOTO 
inkjet media which was recently launched around the world and is 
receiving glowing reviews."

Although it only states "development" I think they probably mean that 
the Harman paper is coated at Mobberley, along with at least some of 
their conventional baryta/silver halide papers, probably using a very 
similar paper base and redundant equipment from their normal coating 
plant. I don't know where the base is made. But Harman is still in the 
manufacturing business, although part of the site was sold off for a 
housing estate, there is still a fairly substantial plant remaining - 
and I think about half the workforce that Ilford had there before they 
went bust.

I've read one of the fairly glowing reviews, but it failed to convince 
me that it would be likely to be a good alternative to the existing 
papers I use.

Ilford inkjet papers - very different proucts - are still in production 
by Oji at Marly, Switzerland. Mobberley used to make some inkjet 
products for the Swiss company, but I thought there was no longer any 
connection at all between the two companies.

Peter Marshall

_________________________________________________________________
My London Diary	              http://mylondondiary.co.uk/
London's Industrial Heritage: http://petermarshallphotos.co.uk/
The Buildings of London etc:  http://londonphotographs.co.uk/
and elsewhere......



djon43 wrote:

> Hi Rick...wasn't me... Sinar001 mentioned Boston. 
>
> The way I read it, 1) NO "Ilford" appears to remain in the paper biz
> (maybe film and paper) 2) the Swiss factory is owned by Oji, a huge
> Japanese company 3)"Harman" is the buy out group's name for what
> appears to be a technical design, branding, and distribution company. 
>
> My guess is that Oji manufactures paper for Harman, which might be
> good news for everybody because Harman could also contract with 
> cheaper paper manufacturing/coating operations globally (such as in
> China or Eastern Europe), which would lower prices.
>
> If the "buy out" group played a role in Oji's purchase of the Swiss
> factory, it might have been as former Ilford executives facilitating
> the deal as front men. Their payoff might have been the "Harman" name
> and rights to technology (eg baryta) they created while still working
> for the late lamented Ilford. 
>
> Whew. That kind of thing was common in the US during the Reagan years,
> but junk bonds were used back then, whereas the Japanese would have
> used "carry trade" money, an entirely different game.
>
>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Rick Colson
> <colson@...> wrote:
>   
>> Hi John -
>>
>> You wrote:
>>
>> "Closed their Bingham, NY shipping & distribution, Closed their New
>>     
> Jersey
>   
>> office. New US headquarters is in the Boston area. Distribution is
>>     
> through a
>   
>> 3rd party now."
>>
>> Their September 2006 press release said that the headquarters was in NJ.
>> What makes you believe it to be in the Boston area? (I'm not saying
>>     
> you're
>   
>> wrong... I just couldn't find any evidence of that. Im an industry
>> consultant and if it's in Boston (my backyard) I'd like to know.)
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Rick
>>
>>     
>
>
>
>
>
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Djon43 wrote:

"Hi Rick...wasn't me... Sinar001 mentioned Boston."

Sorry! Mea culpa. But thanks anyway for the info.

Rick

sinar001 wrote:

"To make it perfectly clear, which it doesn't seem to be--
Ilford, is a division of Oji. Their US offices are in Springfield, Mass."

Thanks! That's exactly what I was looking for.

Rick

Long thread for a paper that doesn't hold its inks.



Met vriendelijke groeten,  Ernst


|  Dinkla Grafische Techniek  |
|     www.pigment-print.com    |
|             ( unvollendet )            |

Ernst, Remember the recent baaa-baaaing here, ridiculing the very
possibility of impending paper/pigment advances? I doubt it hurts  to
consider the visible future, or to observe the mutation of old-name
businesses as time marches on.

Harman's application of an old technology (baryta)in competition with
Asian manufacturers who have long mastered that technology, would be
doomed competitively even if it worked. I think we can agree that the
Chinese do know a little about bright white clay :-) But baryta's
surely not the only trick Harman has up their sleeves.   


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla
<E.Dinkla@...> wrote:

>
> Long thread for a paper that doesn't hold its inks.
> 
> 
> 
> Met vriendelijke groeten,  Ernst
> 
> 
> |  Dinkla Grafische Techniek  |
> |     www.pigment-print.com    |
> |             ( unvollendet )            |
>

> Long thread for a paper that doesn't hold its inks.

but in my experience, and others, it does. Far less delicate than the
other matte papers I use.
Clearly there is some issue that needs resolution, but it's a brand
new product. That it doesn't meet HPR densities simply puts in amongst
many many other fine, and viable, papers in use today. Additionally,
it has some unique characteristics that many in the photographic
community would find valuable.

I learned nearly everything I know from the list communities, and am
extraordinarily grateful for that education. Unfortunately I and
others I know detect an obvious climate change that threatens
continued usefulness.

I hope the paper turns out to be great.
Tyler

Tyler, Harman's PR makes fabulous claims...they're risking credibility
if they ignore critical comments from skilled users. 

It seems appropriate for this site to evaluate the materials that we
use...

It might occur to Harman the only people who care about "air dried
glossy"  are remembering papers better than any inkjet in certain
ways, including virtually everything on a fiber base, including Agfa
Brovira, Kodabromide, and Oriental. People without that darkroom
experience may not give a damn about it.

As you are an enthusiast for this paper, please repeat your workflow
so we can see what IS working. It sounds like Harman should release an
information sheet. 

 I wouldn't bother with Harman or any other high-priced paper unless I
knew that others were successful with my personal setup (2200/MIS and
2200/Epson). 

Harman and others will shortly introduce better papers, but it's
interesting to see them trying baryta for the small market willing to
pay 2X fine silver paper for inkjet with the shortcomings even you
have mentioned. 


 Far less delicate than the
> other matte papers I use.


> Clearly there is some issue that needs resolution, but it's a brand
> new product. That it doesn't meet HPR densities 

unique characteristics 

that many in the photographic
> community would find valuable.

detect an obvious climate change that threatens

> continued usefulness.
> 
> I hope the paper turns out to be great.
> Tyler
>

If find something interesting here. Who is djon43? I don't see a name on any
of these recent post. 

 

I too have had no trouble with my samples; both with a 4800 Epson K3 w/MK
and a Cone Piezo tone Sepia set with Museum Black. But since HPR keeps
getting mentioned here as a "standard", I did in fact have many troubles
with that paper when it was first released including inconsistent coatings.
It went through several package designs but that has not stopped it from
becoming a favorite of many. I also recall that it too was somewhat
expensive on it's release. This is all very recent history and easily forgot
when you stop to wipe off the blood from life on the cutting edge. 

 

As to this homage to Dmax or is it a search for a Holy Grail? Either way
sometimes the over look is far more important than an absolute Dmax nirvana.
Please stop beating that horse senseless.  

 

Eric Neilsen Photography

4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

214-827-8301

http://ericneilsenphotography.com

 

Skype : ejprinter

  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of djon43
Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 11:02 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: marketing, financials, Harman, silver etc.

 


Tyler, Harman's PR makes fabulous claims...they're risking credibility
if they ignore critical comments from skilled users. 

It seems appropriate for this site to evaluate the materials that we
use...

It might occur to Harman the only people who care about "air dried
glossy" are remembering papers better than any inkjet in certain
ways, including virtually everything on a fiber base, including Agfa
Brovira, Kodabromide, and Oriental. People without that darkroom
experience may not give a damn about it.

As you are an enthusiast for this paper, please repeat your workflow
so we can see what IS working. It sounds like Harman should release an
information sheet. 

I wouldn't bother with Harman or any other high-priced paper unless I
knew that others were successful with my personal setup (2200/MIS and
2200/Epson). 

Harman and others will shortly introduce better papers, but it's
interesting to see them trying baryta for the small market willing to
pay 2X fine silver paper for inkjet with the shortcomings even you
have mentioned. 

Far less delicate than the
> other matte papers I use.

> Clearly there is some issue that needs resolution, but it's a brand
> new product. That it doesn't meet HPR densities 

unique characteristics 

that many in the photographic
> community would find valuable.

detect an obvious climate change that threatens
> continued usefulness.
> 
> I hope the paper turns out to be great.
> Tyler
>

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]