Digital BW, The Print

Hi,
I just put a Kayenta print on my wall (the room is always shady) and to my horror, the one I put up on 1st Feb has gone about as yellow as Epson Velvet - showing yellowing very similar to Epson Enhanced Matte or Epson Heavyweight Matte.

I've stocked up on Kayenta, Sparrowhawk and ordered three rolls of PremierArt Premium Matte ... and have a sinking feeling that it was a false economy and I'll be back to using PhotoRag or similar.

Any experiences anyone?

thanks,
Richard
--
http://smallfield.vze.com
http://photos.smallfield.vze.com (Photos web site)
http://warkworth.vze.com/ (Warkworth photo essay)
http://picasaweb.google.com/rsmallfield/ (Recent work) 

   "First, they came for the socialists and I did not speak out because I was 
   not a socialist. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak 
   out because I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I 
   did not speak out because I was not a Jew. Then they came for me, and there 
   was no one left to speak for me." 
   --Martin Niemoller, a Lutheran pastor, was imprisoned by the Nazis for eight 
   years because he spoke out against Hitler:

Richard, if I didn't know you better I'd guess you were a smoker :-)

Damn. That's bad news. Maybe it IS environmental. On the other hand,
maybe it's a batch issue, or has something to do with ambient light
and UV. 

I've just compared 11X17 Kayenta, 3 and 6 months vintage, with 
fresh-from-the-box Kayenta as well as 25 year old Agfa Brovira
(silver) and year-plus old Moab Entrada White...  Brovira was my gold
standard: this was processed "archivally" by an obsessed friend. It's
less "bright" than these inkjets but its as neutral. My short
experience with inkjet doesn't prove anything. 

I'll compare fresh Kayenta prints to all sorts of papers in recent two
years of B&W print exchanges and report back. 

Kayenta's white may vary more than others according to the room light
...can be strikingly cold, even faintly blue/magenta sometimes. Not
wonderful unless that's what one wants. It has noticable grainy
texture...maybe that reflects the ambient lighting more than some?
Most of my world is cold daylight, cold white walls etc. Maybe Kayenta
would look warm in a warm-looking room with a lot of carpets and
furniture?


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Richard
Smallfield <r.smallfield@...> wrote:
>
> Hi,
> I just put a Kayenta print on my wall (the room is always shady) and
to my horror, the one I put up on 1st Feb has gone about as yellow as
Epson Velvet - showing yellowing very similar to Epson Enhanced Matte
or Epson Heavyweight Matte.
> 
> I've stocked up on Kayenta, Sparrowhawk and ordered three rolls of
PremierArt Premium Matte ... and have a sinking feeling that it was a
false economy and I'll be back to using PhotoRag or similar.

> 
> Any experiences anyone?
> 
> thanks,
> Richard
> --
> http://smallfield.vze.com
> http://photos.smallfield.vze.com (Photos web site)
> http://warkworth.vze.com/ (Warkworth photo essay)

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "djon43" 
<djon43@...> wrote:
>
> Richard, if I didn't know you better I'd guess you were a smoker :-)
> 
> Damn. That's bad news. Maybe it IS environmental. On the other hand,
> maybe it's a batch issue, or has something to do with ambient light
> and UV. 
> 
> I've just compared 11X17 Kayenta, 3 and 6 months vintage, with 
> fresh-from-the-box Kayenta as well as 25 year old Agfa Brovira
> (silver) and year-plus old Moab Entrada White...  Brovira was my 
gold
> standard: this was processed "archivally" by an obsessed friend. 
It's
> less "bright" than these inkjets but its as neutral. My short
> experience with inkjet doesn't prove anything. 
> 
> I'll compare fresh Kayenta prints to all sorts of papers in recent 
two
> years of B&W print exchanges and report back. 
> 
> Kayenta's white may vary more than others according to the room 
light
> ...can be strikingly cold, even faintly blue/magenta sometimes. Not
> wonderful unless that's what one wants. It has noticable grainy
> texture...maybe that reflects the ambient lighting more than some?
> Most of my world is cold daylight, cold white walls etc. Maybe 
Kayenta
> would look warm in a warm-looking room with a lot of carpets and
> furniture?
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Richard
> Smallfield <r.smallfield@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> > I just put a Kayenta print on my wall (the room is always shady) 
and
> to my horror, the one I put up on 1st Feb has gone about as yellow 
as
> Epson Velvet - showing yellowing very similar to Epson Enhanced 
Matte
> or Epson Heavyweight Matte.
> > 
> > I've stocked up on Kayenta, Sparrowhawk and ordered three rolls of
> PremierArt Premium Matte ... and have a sinking feeling that it was 
a
> false economy and I'll be back to using PhotoRag or similar.

Just a shot in the dark...do you have an air purifier that produces 
ozone? The most advertised product in the U.S. is supposed to produce 
vast amounts of the stuff.

> > 
> > Any experiences anyone?
> > 
> > thanks,
> > Richard
> > --
> > http://smallfield.vze.com
> > http://photos.smallfield.vze.com (Photos web site)
> > http://warkworth.vze.com/ (Warkworth photo essay)
>

Hey Richard,

Strange, I have prints on Kayenta all over my walls and haven't seen 
any yellowing at all (they've been up for over 6 months). I do agree 
that it is easily affected by ambient light. During the winter the 
paper showed as nice and white. Now that the leaves are back on the 
trees up here the paper has a distinct green cast.

Eric
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Richard 
Smallfield <r.smallfield@...> wrote:
>
> Hi,
> I just put a Kayenta print on my wall (the room is always shady) 
and to my horror, the one I put up on 1st Feb has gone about as 
yellow as Epson Velvet - showing yellowing very similar to Epson 
Enhanced Matte or Epson Heavyweight Matte.
> 
> I've stocked up on Kayenta, Sparrowhawk and ordered three rolls of 
PremierArt Premium Matte ... and have a sinking feeling that it was a 
false economy and I'll be back to using PhotoRag or similar.
> 
> Any experiences anyone?
> 
> thanks,
> Richard
> --
> http://smallfield.vze.com
> http://photos.smallfield.vze.com (Photos web site)
> http://warkworth.vze.com/ (Warkworth photo essay)
> http://picasaweb.google.com/rsmallfield/ (Recent work) 
> 
>    "First, they came for the socialists and I did not speak out 
because I was 
>    not a socialist. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I 
did not speak 
>    out because I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for the 
Jews, and I 
>    did not speak out because I was not a Jew. Then they came for 
me, and there 
>    was no one left to speak for me." 
>    --Martin Niemoller, a Lutheran pastor, was imprisoned by the 
Nazis for eight 
>    years because he spoke out against Hitler:
>

Hi Richard,

>I just put a Kayenta print on my wall (the room is always shady) 
>and to my horror, the one I put up on 1st Feb has gone about as 
>yellow as Epson Velvet - showing yellowing very similar to 
>Epson Enhanced Matte or Epson Heavyweight Matte.

Let us know if the Premier Art brightened paper also yellows.  A company
representative has told me that his company uses titanium dioxide as the
brightener, not the dyes that are in most of the other papers.  This should
make the brightener much more stable.

On the other hand, if the yellowing is happening in a shady room, it may be
a gas attack and not brightener fading.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

At 07:07 AM Friday 4/6/2007, you wrote:
>Richard, if I didn't know you better I'd guess you were a smoker :-)

Nope, afraid not!

>Damn. That's bad news. Maybe it IS environmental. On the other hand,
>maybe it's a batch issue, or has something to do with ambient light
>and UV. 

Well, I live out in the country where the air is clean, and use no chemicals around the house or and air purifier.

The prints are only pinned to the wall.

>I've just compared 11X17 Kayenta, 3 and 6 months vintage, with 
>fresh-from-the-box Kayenta as well as 25 year old Agfa Brovira
>(silver) and year-plus old Moab Entrada White... 

I have an Entrada Bright photo at a friend's place that I'll compare with new Entrada ... I compared it last night at her place to new Kayenta and it had stood up pretty well compared with the Kayenta that I've had on the wall two months. But I couldn't compare it with new Entrada, which is the real test.

>I'll compare fresh Kayenta prints to all sorts of papers in recent two
>years of B&W print exchanges and report back. 

Thanks.

>Maybe Kayenta
>would look warm in a warm-looking room with a lot of carpets and
>furniture?

These two prints are on the same wall though.

Thanks for your feedback,
Richard

--
http://smallfield.vze.com
http://photos.smallfield.vze.com (Photos web site)
http://warkworth.vze.com/ (Warkworth photo essay)
http://picasaweb.google.com/rsmallfield/ (Recent work) 

   "I have come to believe that the whole world is an 
   enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by 
   our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had
   an underlying truth." 
   --Umberto Eco

Hi Paul,
   Slight correction, There are no white "Dyes" for inclusion in paper for Chemical and process reasons, however, TiO is more resistant to fade or yellowing but, because of the current particle "size" and cost it doesn't contain enough to do a long term job, and is still susceptible to "light stimulated atmospheric pollutants".

The good news is that small quantaties of a range of 10nm to 25nm particles in combination, seem to do the job, and are under test at the moment, so I guess we will see a change soon.

John_e

----- Original Message ----
From: Paul Roark <paul.roark@...t>
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, 6 April, 2007 6:22:31 AM
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Kayenta yellowing too!

Hi Richard,

>I just put a Kayenta print on my wall (the room is always shady) 
>and to my horror, the one I put up on 1st Feb has gone about as 
>yellow as Epson Velvet - showing yellowing very similar to 
>Epson Enhanced Matte or Epson Heavyweight Matte.

Let us know if the Premier Art brightened paper also yellows. A company
representative has told me that his company uses titanium dioxide as the
brightener, not the dyes that are in most of the other papers. This should
make the brightener much more stable.

On the other hand, if the yellowing is happening in a shady room, it may be
a gas attack and not brightener fading.

Paul
www.PaulRoark. com 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Richard Smallfield wrote:
> At 07:07 AM Friday 4/6/2007, you wrote:
>> Richard, if I didn't know you better I'd guess you were a smoker :-)
> 
> Nope, afraid not!
> 
>> Damn. That's bad news. Maybe it IS environmental. On the other hand,
>> maybe it's a batch issue, or has something to do with ambient light
>> and UV. 
> 
> Well, I live out in the country where the air is clean, and use no chemicals around the house or and air purifier.
> 
> The prints are only pinned to the wall.

I suppose it's possible that there's something out-gassing from
your walls, perhaps something from the paint and/or wall material?

While I don't think it's highly likely this is the cause, it's
certainly something to consider.

Dana

TiO2 is the common white pigment used in commerical white paints and in most
artist's white paint. Compared to the lead pigments that it replaced, it
doesn't tend to darken with exposure to sulphides and the like. I have used
tens of pounds of the stuff in making rabbit glue gesso panels for my wife's
egg tempera paintings and if it fluoresces, it sure ain't much. It is
inherently extremely stable. I have a fifty pound sack of the stuff that is
unchanged over at least ten years. I no longer have access to analytical
intruments but if someone does, a quick scan with a recording
spectrofluorimeter would answer the question quickly. I certainly would not
consider it a typical  OBA. I have no doubt that it reflects UV as well as
the rest of the visible spectrum since it is, afterall, a very white white.
 
Since it reflects UV that could certainly add to the damage UV causes to
plastics with time since it would intensify the UV exposure and hence the
degradation of the plastic.
 
Roger
 
Roger L Sopher 
rlsopher@... 
http://deCorrales.com <http://decorrales.com/>  

 

  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul
Roark
Sent: Friday, April 06, 2007 1:05 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Kayenta yellowing too!





> ... There are no white "Dyes" for inclusion in paper for
> Chemical and process reasons,

I think the OBAs are usually in the coating, not the paper itself. Many, if
not most, of these OBAs are considered "dyes." See
http://en.wikipedia <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_brightener:>
.org/wiki/Optical_brightener: "Optical brighteners,
optical brightening agents, fluorescent brightening agents or fluorescent
whitening agents (FWAs) are dyes that absorb light in the ultraviolet and
violet region of the electromagnetic spectrum, and re-emit light in the blue
region..."

My questions with respect to the TiO2 claim are more with respect to whether
it is a true OBA and whether it has other properties that make it
undesirable in papers. 

"Titanium dioxide (TiO2) reflects ultraviolet light, ...
[I]n the presence of sunlight and water, TiO2 catalyzes the formation of
hydrogen peroxide, ..."
http://www.ingentac
<http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/klu/bico/2003/00000048/00000005/05122
4> onnect.com/content/klu/bico/2003/00000048/00000005/051224
62 

If TiO2 reflects UV rather than absorbs it and re-emits it as blue light
like the OBAs we usually talk about, it might still be considered a
"brightener" in that it is very white, but it is not the same as the dyes
that convert UV to visible light. This might explain why with respect to at
least one Premier Art paper claimed to be "Bright White" I did not detect
fluorescence under my UV light.

TiO2's catalytic properties were apparently what caused the polyethylene
cracking in the original RC papers (according to an old Kodak publication).
I wonder if that same property has any effects on fading, which, after all,
is an oxidation process.

On the other hand the above paper, which is not talking of paper, mentions
that TiO2 can be coated to eliminate the catalytic properties. So, it may
be that the coating companies are using an advanced form of the very white
pigment to make their papers very white, even if not fluorescent. 

At any rate, I'm not an expert in this, but it is interesting. Having a
very white paper that did not yellow quickly would clearly appeal to many
people, and it may be that some paper companies have found a way to do this
with a form of TiO2 that is much longer lived than the old OBA dyes that
"faded" (lost activity) rather quickly. I have not had the time to do a
comparison test of the various papers, but the Premier Art paper that is
"Bright White" yet does not fluoresce under my black light would definitely
be one I'd want to have in a comparative test.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 



 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> ... There are no white "Dyes" for inclusion in paper for
> Chemical and process reasons,

I think the OBAs are usually in the coating, not the paper itself.  Many, if
not most, of these OBAs are considered "dyes." See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_brightener: "Optical brighteners,
optical brightening agents, fluorescent brightening agents or fluorescent
whitening agents (FWAs) are dyes that absorb light in the ultraviolet and
violet region of the electromagnetic spectrum, and re-emit light in the blue
region..."

My questions with respect to the TiO2 claim are more with respect to whether
it is a true OBA and whether it has other properties that make it
undesirable in papers.  

"Titanium dioxide (TiO2) reflects ultraviolet light, ...
[I]n the presence of sunlight and water, TiO2 catalyzes the formation of
hydrogen peroxide, ..."
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/klu/bico/2003/00000048/00000005/051224
62 

If TiO2 reflects UV rather than absorbs it and re-emits it as blue light
like the OBAs we usually talk about, it might still be considered a
"brightener" in that it is very white, but it is not the same as the dyes
that convert UV to visible light.  This might explain why with respect to at
least one Premier Art paper claimed to be "Bright White" I did not detect
fluorescence under my UV light.

TiO2's catalytic properties were apparently what caused the polyethylene
cracking in the original RC papers (according to an old Kodak publication).
I wonder if that same property has any effects on fading, which, after all,
is an oxidation process.

On the other hand the above paper, which is not talking of paper, mentions
that TiO2 can be coated to eliminate the catalytic properties.  So, it may
be that the coating companies are using an advanced form of the very white
pigment to make their papers very white, even if not fluorescent. 

At any rate, I'm not an expert in this, but it is interesting.  Having a
very white paper that did not yellow quickly would clearly appeal to many
people, and it may be that some paper companies have found a way to do this
with a form of TiO2 that is much longer lived than the old OBA dyes that
"faded" (lost activity) rather quickly.  I have not had the time to do a
comparison test of the various papers, but the Premier Art paper that is
"Bright White" yet does not fluoresce under my black light would definitely
be one I'd want to have in a comparative test.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

I've photographed the yellowing I mentioned if anyone wants me to email them a jpeg.

Many thanks for all your thoughts.

Richard
--
http://smallfield.vze.com
http://photos.smallfield.vze.com (Photos web site)
http://warkworth.vze.com/ (Warkworth photo essay)
http://picasaweb.google.com/rsmallfield/ (Recent work) 

   "Men are conservatives when they are least vigorous,
   or when they are most luxurious.  They are conservatives 
   after dinner."
   --Ralph Waldo Emerson

My first post to this list.
For a good few years now I've seen TiO2 mentioned in New Scientist magazine
as useful in breaking down organic compounds in the presence of UV. An
example application is self-cleaning windows. I've also seen references
elsewhere to self-cleaning Japanese toilets. This is more or less what the
article at ingentaconnect is about. This admittedly non-academic link seems
to illustrate the process well, for anyone who is interested:
http://tekoneast.com/titania/Green%20Quest%20-%20Photocatalyst%20Mechanism.htm

Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanium_dioxide

And an interesting and more technical article:
http://www.threebond.co.jp/en/technical/technicalnews/pdf/tech62.pdf

Two things stand out:
1. in the presence of water, TiO2 produces hydroxyl radicals which are
extremely reactive and could certainly damage paper and/or ink
2. TiO2 is hydrophilic

Neither of these sound like great things for the paper that holds the TiO2.
On the other hand, if the TiO2 particles are coated to prevent such contact
it could have a protective effect. It is the key component to any sunscreen,
due to its being highly reflective to UV light. So if the particles are
coated, it could be beneficial in reflecting away any UV.

Tom

On 06/04/07, Paul Roark <paul.roark@...> wrote:
>
> {snip}
> My questions with respect to the TiO2 claim are more with respect to
> whether
> it is a true OBA and whether it has other properties that make it
> undesirable in papers.
>
> "Titanium dioxide (TiO2) reflects ultraviolet light, ...
> [I]n the presence of sunlight and water, TiO2 catalyzes the formation of
> hydrogen peroxide, ..."
>
> http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/klu/bico/2003/00000048/00000005/05122462
>
>
> If TiO2 reflects UV rather than absorbs it and re-emits it as blue light
> like the OBAs we usually talk about, it might still be considered a
> "brightener" in that it is very white, but it is not the same as the dyes
> that convert UV to visible light.  This might explain why with respect to
> at
> least one Premier Art paper claimed to be "Bright White" I did not detect
> fluorescence under my UV light.
>
> TiO2's catalytic properties were apparently what caused the polyethylene
> cracking in the original RC papers (according to an old Kodak
> publication).
> I wonder if that same property has any effects on fading, which, after
> all,
> is an oxidation process.
>
> On the other hand the above paper, which is not talking of paper, mentions
> that TiO2 can be coated to eliminate the catalytic properties.  So, it may
> be that the coating companies are using an advanced form of the very white
> pigment to make their papers very white, even if not fluorescent.
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

For what it is worth, I have seen severe yellowing on one half of a silver-gelatin print that was 
in direct contact with ordinary newsprint (newspaper paper).  The print was on one of the 
Iford multigrade RC papers (probably version III), properly processed and washed. It may have 
been mildly selenium toned, but I can't be sure.

It was a 5x7 "snapshot" of a puppy that I had put into my desk odd-and-ends letter holder 
and forgotten about. Part of it was in contact with a newspaper clipping and the other part 
was probably against envelopes, printer paper or something of the sort.  I don't recall when I 
ran across it, but it was a least a year, and possibly two.

I have never seen another Iford print with this degree of yellowing, so whatever newsprint 
"puts out" will produce yellowing that surpasses anything I have seen in any on my ordinary 
prints, archival prints, refrigerator prints and even work prints since I started darkroom work 
in 1970.  Acid? Sulphur? Some other chemical or chemical process?

Myron