Digital BW, The Print

Mike, 

everyone of the 1000 on this list could be said to know someone who 
has had problems; hearsay is no good in determining the number who 
have actually had problems. I'd wager if the members were polled, 
you'd find more than 30 who have had problems themselves with 
clogging, green prints, or damaged printers.

Tim

> ... the
> number of people that have had problems or know "someone" that has
> problems is mind boggling.--
"Art is hard, let's go to the bar"
--
Tim Spragens
http://www.borderless-photos.com
&
http://www.borderless-photos.de

Mike-

I believe that the count of only 30 very vocal people is true. After 
all, what's the point of being vocal about it <g>... There IS a 
solution... Just switch to FS ink and continue to use the driver... 
Now THAT would be a large group <g>.

I'm sitting here looking a an unused set of Piezo carts, dying to put 
them in the second 1160 and do side by side printing with the FS inks 
just to satisfy myself that I am not giving up anything... but you 
know, I just don't want to take the chance of having another 6 week 
clog-a-thon to get the printer back to scratch. I'll freely admit the 
problem is with me or my printers, since Jon is sure it isn't the 
ink... I flat don't care what it is, I don't want to waste time 
dealing with clogs...but I'll never be vocal about it <vbg>.

Tom O'Connell

TomOC@...
www.thomasoconnell.com


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Michael Kravit" 
<michael.kravit@w...> wrote:
> I have thought very hard about posting this message, but in a 
effort to share my information in a positive and accurate manner here 
goes.
> 
> It has been said by a certain group that there are only about 30 
very vocal individuals having clogging, greenies, and various outher 
issues with Piezo inks. Well folks, this week I attended FotoFusion 
in Delray Beach, Florida. I heard story after story of clogged 
printers, green prints, damaged printers, CIS units not working with 
these inks, etc. So I started to take count the stories. ALl I will 
say is that the number of people that have had problems or 
know "someone" that has problems is mind boggling. I guess that when 
stating that there are only 30 people with problems, the power of 3 
was left off.
> 
> One think that I was told, and this is only third party info, is 
that Epson is working on 8 and 16 color printers that will be capable 
of producing pigmented neutral grayscale images with no color cast, 
shift, or crossover. Oh, won't life be grand! ;-)

> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I have thought very hard about posting this message, but in a effort to share my information in a positive and accurate manner here goes.

It has been said by a certain group that there are only about 30 very vocal individuals having clogging, greenies, and various outher issues with Piezo inks. Well folks, this week I attended FotoFusion in Delray Beach, Florida. I heard story after story of clogged printers, green prints, damaged printers, CIS units not working with these inks, etc. So I started to take count the stories. ALl I will say is that the number of people that have had problems or know "someone" that has problems is mind boggling. I guess that when stating that there are only 30 people with problems, the power of 3 was left off.

One think that I was told, and this is only third party info, is that Epson is working on 8 and 16 color printers that will be capable of producing pigmented neutral grayscale images with no color cast, shift, or crossover. Oh, won't life be grand! ;-)

Mike


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

on 1/27/02 12:52 PM, Michael Kravit wrote:

> It has been said by a certain group that there are only about 30 very vocal
> individuals having clogging, greenies, and various outher issues with Piezo
> inks. Well folks, this week I attended FotoFusion in Delray Beach, Florida. I
> heard story after story of clogged printers, green prints, damaged printers,
> CIS units not working with these inks, etc. So I started to take count the
> stories. ALl I will say is that the number of people that have had problems or
> know "someone" that has problems is mind boggling. I guess that when stating
> that there are only 30 people with problems, the power of 3 was left off.

The pity of it is that the word on the street is that tech support has gone
downhill too. 

Todd

At 08:40 PM 1/27/02 -0600, you wrote:

>   Ya know, that is the perception. The majority of folks at FotoFusion 
> are commercial photogs. I had dinner last night with a very well know NYC 
> childrens phototographer. He told me is mad as hell that he has spent 
> hundreds of dollars on the Piezo system and now has a useless clogged 
> printer. He assigned one of his assistants to set up the system and get 
> it up and running. So not only did he waste money, the salary he paid the 
> assistant has to be factored into the equation.
>
>   It is not just the unsophisticated amateur that is having problems. The 
> problem seems to be at epidemic proportions.
>
>   Mike


I still have only heard of clogging problems with people who are using the 
continuous ink systems!  I don't thing the piezo inks should ever have been 
used in the small printers.  There are no problems with clogging in the 
large printers without the continuous ink systems.

Tina


Tina Manley, ASMP
http://www.tinamanley.com
images available from http://www.pdiphotos.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tom,

Case in point....

I have not run a cleaning cycle in 4 weeks with the MIS FS inks. I guess that even if I had to run a cleaning cycle once a week I would not complain.

Mike

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: tomoc 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2002 11:19 AM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Piezography Clogging Issues


  Mike-

  I believe that the count of only 30 very vocal people is true. After 
  all, what's the point of being vocal about it <g>... There IS a 
  solution... Just switch to FS ink and continue to use the driver... 
  Now THAT would be a large group <g>.

  I'm sitting here looking a an unused set of Piezo carts, dying to put 
  them in the second 1160 and do side by side printing with the FS inks 
  just to satisfy myself that I am not giving up anything... but you 
  know, I just don't want to take the chance of having another 6 week 
  clog-a-thon to get the printer back to scratch. I'll freely admit the 
  problem is with me or my printers, since Jon is sure it isn't the 
  ink... I flat don't care what it is, I don't want to waste time 
  dealing with clogs...but I'll never be vocal about it <vbg>.

  Tom O'Connell

  TomOC@...
  www.thomasoconnell.com


  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Michael Kravit" 
  <michael.kravit@w...> wrote:
  > I have thought very hard about posting this message, but in a 
  effort to share my information in a positive and accurate manner here 
  goes.
  > 
  > It has been said by a certain group that there are only about 30 
  very vocal individuals having clogging, greenies, and various outher 
  issues with Piezo inks. Well folks, this week I attended FotoFusion 
  in Delray Beach, Florida. I heard story after story of clogged 
  printers, green prints, damaged printers, CIS units not working with 
  these inks, etc. So I started to take count the stories. ALl I will 
  say is that the number of people that have had problems or 
  know "someone" that has problems is mind boggling. I guess that when 
  stating that there are only 30 people with problems, the power of 3 
  was left off.
  > 
  > One think that I was told, and this is only third party info, is 
  that Epson is working on 8 and 16 color printers that will be capable 
  of producing pigmented neutral grayscale images with no color cast, 
  shift, or crossover. Oh, won't life be grand! ;-)
  > 
  > Mike
  > 
  > 
  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

"The pity of it is that the word on the street is that tech support has gone
  downhill too." 

  Todd,

  Ya know, that is the perception. The majority of folks at FotoFusion are commercial photogs. I had dinner last night with a very well know NYC childrens phototographer. He told me is mad as hell that he has spent hundreds of dollars on the Piezo system and now has a useless clogged printer. He assigned one of his assistants to set up the system and get it up and running. So not only did he waste money, the salary he paid the assistant has to be factored into the equation.

  It is not just the unsophisticated amateur that is having problems. The problem seems to be at epidemic proportions.

  Mike 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mike -

That's about what I've been experiencing. It's great.

I think Cone would be smart to open up piezo and start actively 
supporting other inks. He might be surprised at how much his total 
business would grow. I accept that it made sense for him to want 
controlled conditions when he was developing it... And then he wanted 
to milk it as long as he could... At some point (we're past it), he 
would be better off going for more volume and to attempt to be 
mainstream to fend off becoming marginalized and passed over. We all 
know that in technology, you can't rest on your laurels (great though 
his are) and expect to survive...a lot of people are putting a lot of 
brainpower on this issue...

Tom O'Connell

TomOC@...
www.thomasoconnell.com


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Michael Kravit" 
<michael.kravit@w...> wrote:
> Tom,
> 
> Case in point....
> 
> I have not run a cleaning cycle in 4 weeks with the MIS FS inks. I 
guess that even if I had to run a cleaning cycle once a week I would 
not complain.
> 
> Mike
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: tomoc 
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y... 
>   Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2002 11:19 AM
>   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Piezography Clogging Issues
> 
> 
>   Mike-
> 
>   I believe that the count of only 30 very vocal people is true. 
After 
>   all, what's the point of being vocal about it <g>... There IS a 
>   solution... Just switch to FS ink and continue to use the 
driver... 
>   Now THAT would be a large group <g>.
> 
>   I'm sitting here looking a an unused set of Piezo carts, dying to 
put 
>   them in the second 1160 and do side by side printing with the FS 
inks 
>   just to satisfy myself that I am not giving up anything... but 
you 
>   know, I just don't want to take the chance of having another 6 
week 
>   clog-a-thon to get the printer back to scratch. I'll freely admit 
the 
>   problem is with me or my printers, since Jon is sure it isn't the 
>   ink... I flat don't care what it is, I don't want to waste time 
>   dealing with clogs...but I'll never be vocal about it <vbg>.
> 
>   Tom O'Connell
> 
>   TomOC@y...
>   www.thomasoconnell.com
> 
> 
>   --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Michael Kravit" 
>   <michael.kravit@w...> wrote:
>   > I have thought very hard about posting this message, but in a 
>   effort to share my information in a positive and accurate manner 
here 
>   goes.
>   > 
>   > It has been said by a certain group that there are only about 
30 
>   very vocal individuals having clogging, greenies, and various 
outher 
>   issues with Piezo inks. Well folks, this week I attended 
FotoFusion 
>   in Delray Beach, Florida. I heard story after story of clogged 
>   printers, green prints, damaged printers, CIS units not working 
with 
>   these inks, etc. So I started to take count the stories. ALl I 
will 
>   say is that the number of people that have had problems or 
>   know "someone" that has problems is mind boggling. I guess that 
when 
>   stating that there are only 30 people with problems, the power of 
3 
>   was left off.
>   > 
>   > One think that I was told, and this is only third party info, 
is 
>   that Epson is working on 8 and 16 color printers that will be 
capable 
>   of producing pigmented neutral grayscale images with no color 
cast, 
>   shift, or crossover. Oh, won't life be grand! ;-)
>   > 
>   > Mike
>   > 
>   > 
>   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
>         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
>               ADVERTISEMENT
>              
>        
>        
> 
>   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page 
is at:
> 
>   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
>   Please follow these basic guidelines:
>   - Include your full name with your message.
>   - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>   - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep them short.
>   - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
header.
>   - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks 
or "flames."
>   - Complete your Yahoo profile.
>   - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
various resources on the homepage. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of 
Service. 

> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

on 1/28/02 1:26 AM, tomoc wrote:

> Mike -
> 
> That's about what I've been experiencing. It's great.
> 
> I think Cone would be smart to open up piezo and start actively
> supporting other inks. He might be surprised at how much his total
> business would grow. I accept that it made sense for him to want
> controlled conditions when he was developing it... And then he wanted
> to milk it as long as he could... At some point (we're past it), he
> would be better off going for more volume and to attempt to be
> mainstream to fend off becoming marginalized and passed over. We all
> know that in technology, you can't rest on your laurels (great though
> his are) and expect to survive...a lot of people are putting a lot of
> brainpower on this issue...
> 
> Tom O'Connell

Below is a snip from a larger message from Jon off the Piezo Color list.

It's possible he's working on something big now, such that he can't be
bothered by the little stuff. Or not.

Todd

on 1/23/02 10:15 PM, Jon Cone wrote:

> I do not think many of you realize how pioneering this time is for us all.
> We are not that far removed from the early Daguerreotypists. It is only hard
> for us to see it, because we are still within the era and not yet looking
> back. Save these stories for your children. They may not know what inkjet is
> in 10 years....  Whoa!
> 
> 
> Jon Cone

> I still have only heard of clogging problems with people who are using the
> continuous ink systems!  I don't thing the piezo inks should ever have
been
> used in the small printers.  There are no problems with clogging in the
> large printers without the continuous ink systems.
>
> Tina
>
>
> Tina Manley, ASMP
> http://www.tinamanley.com
> images available from http://www.pdiphotos.com



I have had clogging problems in a 3000.

Thanks
Bob Obenland

At 08:34 AM 1/28/02 -0500, you wrote:


>I have had clogging problems in a 3000.
>
>Thanks
>Bob Obenland


With the newest Piezo driver?  Any clog I've ever had in my two 3000's has 
been cleared up with one cleaning cycle.  They just keep going and going.

Tina


Tina Manley, ASMP
http://www.tinamanley.com
images available from http://www.pdiphotos.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> >I have had clogging problems in a 3000.
> >
> >Thanks
> >Bob Obenland
> 
> 
> With the newest Piezo driver? 

Yes.

>Any clog I've ever had in my two 3000's has 
> been cleared up with one cleaning cycle.  They just keep going and going.
> 
> Tina

There's been a black cloud over my 3000's
and blue sky over yours.   ;-))

Thanks
Bob Obenland

>   I'm sitting here looking a an unused set of Piezo carts, dying 
to put 
>   them in the second 1160 and do side by side printing with the 
FS inks 
>   just to satisfy myself that I am not giving up anything... but you 
>   know, I just don't want to take the chance of having another 6 
week 
>   clog-a-thon to get the printer back to scratch. 


Tom,
I´ve two 1160, one with Piezo inks and one with MIS FS.
I´ve done a lot of side by side comparisons.
I assure you ... you are loosing nothing using MIS FS and the 
Piezo driver. The only difference: MIS FS is slightly cooler ... but 
very slightly ... and it is n o t green.
I must admit that I´ve never had a big clogging problem with 
piezo nor with MIS  - and I had never had "greenies". For me its 
only a matter of pricing that I switched to MIS FS and VM.
Bernd

That's great.. But I'm going to make an awful lot of prints in the 
next 10 years... And buy the supplies from someone...

tom

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Todd Flashner <tflash@e...> 
wrote:
> on 1/28/02 1:26 AM, tomoc wrote:
> 
> > Mike -
> > 
> > That's about what I've been experiencing. It's great.
> > 
> > I think Cone would be smart to open up piezo and start actively
> > supporting other inks. He might be surprised at how much his total
> > business would grow. I accept that it made sense for him to want
> > controlled conditions when he was developing it... And then he 
wanted
> > to milk it as long as he could... At some point (we're past it), 
he
> > would be better off going for more volume and to attempt to be
> > mainstream to fend off becoming marginalized and passed over. We 
all
> > know that in technology, you can't rest on your laurels (great 
though
> > his are) and expect to survive...a lot of people are putting a 
lot of
> > brainpower on this issue...
> > 
> > Tom O'Connell
> 
> Below is a snip from a larger message from Jon off the Piezo Color 
list.
> 
> It's possible he's working on something big now, such that he can't 
be
> bothered by the little stuff. Or not.
> 
> Todd
> 
> on 1/23/02 10:15 PM, Jon Cone wrote:
> 
> > I do not think many of you realize how pioneering this time is 
for us all.
> > We are not that far removed from the early Daguerreotypists. It 
is only hard
> > for us to see it, because we are still within the era and not yet 
looking
> > back. Save these stories for your children. They may not know 
what inkjet is

> > in 10 years....  Whoa!
> > 
> > 
> > Jon Cone

Thanks, Bernd...

I switched to FS when I only had one 1160, so there is always that 
lingering doubt...but who cares...the FS makes great prints !

It is kind of maddening to hear that there are large numbers of 
people who can use Piezo with no problems and I couldn't... The first 
reaction is to blame yourself (logical since others use it 
well...what am I not doing right?). Maybe I didn't give it enough of 
a chance...only went through about 5 cart sets when I decided to just 
try one set of FS. It was SO trouble free, i went right from the 
first cart set (actually I still have two unopened) to CIS and have 
never turned back. Since I'm on my second set of 4 oz. bottles, I 
probably have "saved" more than $1000<g>... Guess I can afford that 
1280 after all...

Thanks for the reassurances.

tom


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "ruhrfoto" <ruhrfoto@y...> 
wrote:
> 
> >   I'm sitting here looking a an unused set of Piezo carts, dying 
> to put 
> >   them in the second 1160 and do side by side printing with the 
> FS inks 
> >   just to satisfy myself that I am not giving up anything... but 
you 
> >   know, I just don't want to take the chance of having another 6 
> week 
> >   clog-a-thon to get the printer back to scratch. 
> 
> 
> Tom,
> I´ve two 1160, one with Piezo inks and one with MIS FS.
> I´ve done a lot of side by side comparisons.
> I assure you ... you are loosing nothing using MIS FS and the 
> Piezo driver. The only difference: MIS FS is slightly cooler ... 
but 

> very slightly ... and it is n o t green.
> I must admit that I´ve never had a big clogging problem with 
> piezo nor with MIS  - and I had never had "greenies". For me its 
> only a matter of pricing that I switched to MIS FS and VM.
> Bernd

FWIW,

I know of a 1520 with piezography cartridges that clogged.

Heath Sandall

Tina Manley wrote:

>
>
> I still have only heard of clogging problems with people who are using 
> the
> continuous ink systems!  I don't thing the piezo inks should ever have 
> been
> used in the small printers.  There are no problems with clogging in the
> large printers without the continuous ink systems.
>
> Tina
>
>
>

>Mike -
>
>That's about what I've been experiencing. It's great.
>
>I think Cone would be smart to open up piezo and start actively
>supporting other inks. He might be surprised at how much his total
>business would grow. I accept that it made sense for him to want
>controlled conditions when he was developing it... And then he wanted
>to milk it as long as he could... At some point (we're past it), he
>would be better off going for more volume and to attempt to be
>mainstream to fend off becoming marginalized and passed over. We all
>know that in technology, you can't rest on your laurels (great though
>his are) and expect to survive...a lot of people are putting a lot of
>brainpower on this issue...
>
>Tom O'Connell
>
>TomOC@...
>www.thomasoconnell.com



Exactly.  Why can't he just sell the software and not the inks

Bill
-- 
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
b i l l  a g e e  s t u d i o
c a p i s t r a n o  b e a c h  c a l i f o r n i a

billagee@...
http://www.redsilver.com
http://www.billageestudio.com
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Bob Obenland" <bobenland@m...> wrote:
> > I still have only heard of clogging problems with people who are using the
> > continuous ink systems!  I don't thing the piezo inks should ever have
> been
> > used in the small printers.  There are no problems with clogging in the
> > large printers without the continuous ink systems.
> >
> > Tina
> >
> >
> > Tina Manley, ASMP
> > http://www.tinamanley.com
> > images available from http://www.pdiphotos.com
> 
> 
> 
> I have had clogging problems in a 3000.
> 
> Thanks
> Bob Obenland

and some people have every problem that every one else ever had.
who shasnt had a clogging problem even with epsonb inks - get real.
-FR