Digital BW, The Print

Hi folks, I would like to get a better understanding of fine art 
papers for digital b&w printing. Can someone direct me to the right 
channels? A few people have asked me to make prints for them and, up 
until now, I've been using Epson Enhanced Matte, semi gloss, etc. with 
my new 3800.  Can someone suggest alternatives papers/brands for fine 
art applications?

Clayton Jones has a good review on his Fine Art Black and White Digital
Printing site.  See item #5, The Great Paper Chase.

http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Tom Husband



On 4/29/07, SteveZ <blizzie12@...> wrote:
>
> Hi folks, I would like to get a better understanding of fine art
> papers for digital b&w printing. Can someone direct me to the right
> channels? A few people have asked me to make prints for them and, up
> until now, I've been using Epson Enhanced Matte, semi gloss, etc. with
> my new 3800.  Can someone suggest alternatives papers/brands for fine
> art applications?
>
>
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Clayton will have some good recommendations, and one I¹ve liked a lot lately
is Innova PhotoSmooth Cotton.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks, Tom, I did refer to Clayton's article. The problem is there 
are so many kinds of papers on the market, so many manufacturers, 
textures, weights, etc. it's mind boggling. At this juncture, I 
don't require premium priced, gallery quality fine art paper, just a 
few suggestions that are a step or two up from Epson Enhanced Matte.

Any suggestions?


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Stephen 
Petegorsky <petegorsky@...> wrote:
>
> Clayton will have some good recommendations, and one I¹ve liked a 
lot lately

> is Innova PhotoSmooth Cotton.
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Browse this Forum to see what papers people are discussing.. lots of
paper talk readily at your disposal.

Alternatively you might visit www.inkjetart.com to review what they
say about the many papers they sell...I've found them very accurate.  

Epson Enhanced Matte is a benchmark for comparison but I prefer Moab
Kayenta in its place because it's cheaper, whiter, and stays that way
 (for some of us anyway :-) 



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "SteveZ"
<blizzie12@...> wrote:

>
> Thanks, Tom, I did refer to Clayton's article. The problem is there 
> are so many kinds of papers on the market, so many manufacturers, 
> textures, weights, etc. it's mind boggling. At this juncture, I 
> don't require premium priced, gallery quality fine art paper, just a 
> few suggestions that are a step or two up from Epson Enhanced Matte.
> 
> Any suggestions?
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Stephen 
> Petegorsky <petegorsky@> wrote:
> >
> > Clayton will have some good recommendations, and one I¹ve liked a 
> lot lately
> > is Innova PhotoSmooth Cotton.
> > 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

I have been following the various discussions about paper with interest, so please feel free to point me also at any previous posts with regard to the following:
Are there generally accepted definitions of what constitute museum/archival papers and what constitute fine art and/or photo papers?
I ask because, without wishing to seem trite, surely everybody wants the best print possible - all of the time (with perhaps the exception of proofing).
So how or why is there a distinction made between a 'good' photo paper and, for example a good fine art paper? I thought it was simply a matter of choice of finish - look and feel. Or is there more to it than that?
And when does a need arise from that for museum or archival quality paper?

-- 
  Alan Ansell
  aansell@...

----- Original message -----
From: "djon43" <djon43@...>
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 12:50:48 -0000
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Which fine art papers to use?

Browse this Forum to see what papers people are discussing.. lots of
paper talk readily at your disposal.
Alternatively you might visit www.inkjetart.com to review what they
say about the many papers they sell...I've found them very accurate.
Epson Enhanced Matte is a benchmark for comparison but I prefer Moab
Kayenta in its place because it's cheaper, whiter, and stays that way
(for some of us anyway :-)
--- In [1]DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "SteveZ"
<blizzie12@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks, Tom, I did refer to Clayton's article. The problem is there
> are so many kinds of papers on the market, so many manufacturers,
> textures, weights, etc. it's mind boggling. At this juncture, I
> don't require premium priced, gallery quality fine art paper, just a
> few suggestions that are a step or two up from Epson Enhanced Matte.
>
> Any suggestions?
>
>
> --- In [2]DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Stephen
> Petegorsky <petegorsky@> wrote:
> >
> > Clayton will have some good recommendations, and one I¹ve liked a
> lot lately
> > is Innova PhotoSmooth Cotton.
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>


References

1. mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com
2. mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com
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4. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxaGgzNzJwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM3MDIzMTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDE5MTgyBG1zZ0lkAzg1MTkyBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTE3NzkzODAxOA--?act=reply&messageNum=85192
5. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlYjVxcGZiBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM3MDIzMTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDE5MTgyBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTE3NzkzODAxOA--
6. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/messages;_ylc=X3oDMTJlNmRtdmhqBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM3MDIzMTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDE5MTgyBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA21zZ3MEc3RpbWUDMTE3NzkzODAxOA--
7. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
8. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
9. http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkc3Q0OTZ2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM3MDIzMTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDE5MTgyBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMTc3OTM4MDE4
  10. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/join;_ylc=X3oDMTJmZ3N1bmFiBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM3MDIzMTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDE5MTgyBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3N0bmdzBHN0aW1lAzExNzc5MzgwMTg-
  11. mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-digest@yahoogroups.com?subject=Email%20Delivery:%20Digest
  12. mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-traditional@yahoogroups.com?subject=Change%20Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional
  13. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint;_ylc=X3oDMTJkcGVxbmpoBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM3MDIzMTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDE5MTgyBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2hwZgRzdGltZQMxMTc3OTM4MDE4
  14. http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
  15. mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=
  16. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJmbDNwbW01BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM3MDIzMTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDE5MTgyBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzExNzc5MzgwMTg-
  17. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint;_ylc=X3oDMTJlamFzNmxuBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM3MDIzMTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDE5MTgyBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTE3NzkzODAxOA--
  18. http://groups.yahoo.com/gads;_ylc=X3oDMTJjMHNtcnRoBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BF9wAzEEZ3JwSWQDMzcwMjMxMQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwMTkxODIEc2VjA3NsbW9kBHN0aW1lAzExNzc5MzgwMTg-?t=ms&k=Fine+art+photography&w1=Fine+art+photography&w2=Digital+photography&w3=Digital+photography+print&w4=Digital+photography+technique&w5=Fine+art+photography+print&c=5&s=149&g=2&.sig=AhyJLEY_mHSSQCNHMyZ1HQ
  19. http://groups.yahoo.com/gads;_ylc=X3oDMTJjdGNhbzAwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BF9wAzIEZ3JwSWQDMzcwMjMxMQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwMTkxODIEc2VjA3NsbW9kBHN0aW1lAzExNzc5MzgwMTg-?t=ms&k=Digital+photography&w1=Fine+art+photography&w2=Digital+photography&w3=Digital+photography+print&w4=Digital+photography+technique&w5=Fine+art+photography+print&c=5&s=149&g=2&.sig=SvQKuVtg6IzggzvbNW76cQ
  20. http://groups.yahoo.com/gads;_ylc=X3oDMTJjdTJzMmJqBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BF9wAzMEZ3JwSWQDMzcwMjMxMQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwMTkxODIEc2VjA3NsbW9kBHN0aW1lAzExNzc5MzgwMTg-?t=ms&k=Digital+photography+print&w1=Fine+art+photography&w2=Digital+photography&w3=Digital+photography+print&w4=Digital+photography+technique&w5=Fine+art+photography+print&c=5&s=149&g=2&.sig=g1PLpDs3VAJRCiHquYf9Kw
  21. http://groups.yahoo.com/gads;_ylc=X3oDMTJjaDUzYW5tBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BF9wAzQEZ3JwSWQDMzcwMjMxMQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwMTkxODIEc2VjA3NsbW9kBHN0aW1lAzExNzc5MzgwMTg-?t=ms&k=Digital+photography+technique&w1=Fine+art+photography&w2=Digital+photography&w3=Digital+photography+print&w4=Digital+photography+technique&w5=Fine+art+photography+print&c=5&s=149&g=2&.sig=z42wd62NioHid6gdeL6dXQ
  22. http://groups.yahoo.com/gads;_ylc=X3oDMTJjcmxyb2ZkBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BF9wAzUEZ3JwSWQDMzcwMjMxMQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwMTkxODIEc2VjA3NsbW9kBHN0aW1lAzExNzc5MzgwMTg-?t=ms&k=Fine+art+photography+print&w1=Fine+art+photography&w2=Digital+photography&w3=Digital+photography+print&w4=Digital+photography+technique&w5=Fine+art+photography+print&c=5&s=149&g=2&.sig=a-SzixGQMrtqCBQRWDYQjw
  23. http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12jaillhm/M=493064.10615756.11227418.9963301/D=groups/S=1705019182:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1177945218/A=4543832/R=0/SIG=113g7al8u/*http://bix.yahoo.com/contest/4590
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  25. http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12jbg2nl3/M=493064.10512181.11138666.8674578/D=groups/S=1705019182:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1177945218/A=4507179/R=0/SIG=12de4rskk/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=50284/*http://finance.yahoo.com/personal-finance


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> So how or why is there a distinction made between a 'good' photo
paper and, for example a good fine art paper? I thought it was simply
a matter of choice of finish - look and feel. Or is there more to it
than that?
> And when does a need arise from that for museum or archival quality
paper?

Certainly there is some subjectivity in the definitions.

By most accounts, a paper should at least be acid-free to be
considered a fine art paper. Many "photo papers" with an RC base are
not acid-free; the paper base may be acid-free, but the coating is
often a little acidic (this apparently helps to hold the ink better).

Of course, longevity is also an important concern. Unfortunately,
there is very little concrete longevity data (i.e., zero data)
available for most papers. Photo Rag 308 and Innova Smooth Cotton are
pretty popular papers, but to the best of my knowledge there isn't any
longevity data available for these. Most people say, "oh, these should
definitely be in the ballpark of other similar papers for which we do
have information, like Velvet Fine Art or UltraSmooth Fine Art" but
frankly, from a scientific point of view, this is just speculation. 

Paper weight and thickness also come into play. People generally get
the feeling that a thin, reflective paper that has a similar look and
feel of a Costco/Walmart print doesn't go into the same category as a
thick, heavyweight (possibly textured) paper. Papers like Enhanced
Matte (even if it was acid-free) might not go into the "fine art"
category just because they're relatively thin and don't feel "as nice
in the hand" as thicker, heavier papers such as Velvet Fine Art or
Photo Rag. Again, this is subjective.

The presence of optical brighteners (or the lack thereof) is another
point of debate. 

If I had to summarize, I'd say that a paper is considered to be a
"fine art paper" if it satisfies:

  - acid-free and lignin-free

  - made of cotton or alpha cellulose (or some mix of the two)

  - has a suitable thickness/weight (typically at least 14 mils and at
least 250 gsm or so)

  - doesn't contain optical brighteners (widely debated)

Eric

Hi Everyone,

I find this an interesting topic for sure since I to am baffled by the number of papers out 
there.
At first I was floundering around trying this paper and that without any results to speak of. At 
that point I ordered some prints that I found through this forum to see what the different 
papers looked like when well printed. From this I picked one paper that I liked the look of, 
Museo Silver Rag, and have been working with that paper alone since, learning it's 
characteristics when printed through my work flow - Mac Pro, CS2, C88+, MIS EZN inks.
Since making this move my prints have improved steadily and at this point I'm very happy 
with the results.
I guess my question would be; Does everyone change papers as often as it seems?
I realise that aesthetically different images require different treatments, but it seems from the 
discussions there is a lot of moving back and forth between papers.

Thanks for all the others answers as well ;)

Cheers,
Jason

Hello Jason,

>I find this an interesting topic for sure since I to am baffled by
>the number of papers out there....I guess my question would be; Does
everyone change papers as often as it seems?

Good question.  I think most experienced practitioners would agree
that it's best to settle down with a limited selection of materials
and really learn them.  That's certainly been my experience in the
darkroom, and the same here.

I think what's happening is that digital printing is either brand new
or is such a completely different animal even for experienced darkroom
folks that a lot of experimenting is done at first, just to figure
out what sort of tiger we have hold of.  I'll bet you'd find that most
of those who have been doing it for more than, say two years, have
probably settled in on a small range of papers.  It just takes a while
to narrow it down.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Thanks Clayton,

The claws are SLOWLY retracting.

Cheers,
Jason

...You might consider whether you see yourself primarily as a
photographer or as a print maker. 

If you consider yourself a print maker, you may wish to consider what
other print makers used before inkjet...I'm thinking here of
lithographers, woodcut artists, engravers, silk screen artists etc.
Their papers are more akin to "fine art" photo papers than they are to
the papers used by people who see themselves primarily as photographers. 

Inkjet printing has approximated lithographic and seriograpic printing
(silkscreen) quite well for a long time, but has struggled to closely
approximate silver prints until fairly recently. 

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "jason_copple"
<jasoncopple@...> wrote:

>
> Thanks Clayton,
> 
> The claws are SLOWLY retracting.
> 
> Cheers,
> Jason
>