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Large 100% carbon display prints

Large 100% carbon display prints

2007-08-06 by Paul Roark

The primary downside, from my perspective, of the R1800 100% carbon workflow
I'm now using (see http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/R1800.pdf)  is that the
R1800 is limited to 13" wide paper, whereas I often make larger prints - 16
x 20 inches and above.  There is no large format printer that uses the small
1.5 picoliter drops of the R1800.  However, using the 2200 as a test bed,
I've made some profiles that appear to make good, 100% carbon large prints
with K2 printers with MIS LK and Eboni in the usual K2 UC positions.  See
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/K2-Eboni-LK.pdf   I think this will allow
those using the R1800 3-MK 100% carbon workflow to outsource their larger
prints to those who have larger K2 printers and use MIS LK and Eboni MK.

 

Paul

www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>  

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Large 100% carbon display prints

2007-08-06 by Roger

Hi Paul, this is very interesting.  

For others who want to experiment can you shed any light onto how 
you generate the point list which use use to create the curves?  
It's quite precise.

Is the goal of the curve to get the ink tone and smoothness right 
and then to correct the ramp by linearizing it?
Thanks,
Roger

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@...> wrote:
>
> The primary downside, from my perspective, of the R1800 100% 
carbon workflow
> I'm now using (see http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/R1800.pdf)  is 
that the
> R1800 is limited to 13" wide paper, whereas I often make larger 
prints - 16
> x 20 inches and above.  There is no large format printer that uses 
the small
> 1.5 picoliter drops of the R1800.  However, using the 2200 as a 
test bed,
> I've made some profiles that appear to make good, 100% carbon 
large prints
> with K2 printers with MIS LK and Eboni in the usual K2 UC 
positions.  See
> http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/K2-Eboni-LK.pdf   I think this 
will allow
> those using the R1800 3-MK 100% carbon workflow to outsource their 
larger
> prints to those who have larger K2 printers and use MIS LK and 
Eboni MK.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
>  
> 
> Paul
> 
> www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>  
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Large 100% carbon display prints

2007-08-06 by Paul Roark

Hi Roger,

>... can you shed any light onto how you generate the 
>point list which use to create the curves? 
>It's quite precise.

>Is the goal of the curve to get the ink tone and 
>smoothness right and then to correct the ramp by 
>linearizing it?

I probably overkill on the points, but I like to get a curve that both hits
the tones I want and is quite linear, before I linearize.  I've generally
found that the better the curve going into linearization, the better the
final curve.  The Premier Art 325 curve hardly needs any linearization. The
Peregrine curve is rather rough, but I ran out of time and just wanted to
get something out there.

I also add points to smooth transitions.  I don't entirely trust what the
smoothing algorithms can do to a curve.  So, I avoid sharp turns by, in
effect, doing a bit of averaging myself.  It's easy and seems to result in
better final curves.

One major advantage to QTR is that decimals are allowed in its 0 - 100
scale.  In effect, one appears to have the full 16 bit scale available.  So,
very fine adjustments can be made.  How much all this is really needed is
debatable, but with Photoshop curves I found the 0 - 100 scale was a problem
and the full 256 scale actually made a difference.

The curves start as just rough guesses as to what the shape should be.  I
put in some points and check the Curve Preview.  This curve does not show
the results of the smoothing algorithms.  So it's not exact, but it's very
useful and fast.  

If I need to add an intermediate point, I copy points, paste into Notepad,
and add the points there, copying the results back to QTR's Points List.

When I read a test strip with the Print Fix Pro Spectro, I open the exported
text file in Excel and graph it (Insert>Chart>Line).  For the tones, I've
standardized on plus and minus 5 units.  So to get there I right click on
the vertical axis and format the scale.

For the Lab L graph, I just draw a straight line from the top to bottom
points.  That tells me what points need to have more or less ink.  For the
Lab B, I just compare what I have to the target, which in this case was PA
205-Scrapbook.  Lab A can just be ignored.  It's good with all papers and
carbon combinations I've used.

Note that about all I do for QTR profiling on these curves is set the
Default Ink Limit/dmax by just printing a 21-step file at 100 limit and a
straight line (0, 0) to (100, 100) curve.   No further density or limits
need to be determined -- leave all blank.  No calibration page at all needs
to be printed, just the 21-step.  Once the dmax-default limit is set, I go
straight to the curves, using the Point Lists option.  The curves will be
about the same for all matte papers, so just work from one that is already
done.  (Be sure to clear the linearization tab numbers.)  It might be easier
to delete many of the points at first to simplify things.

Obviously the warmer the target curve, the smoother the K2 print will be due
to more LK relative to Eboni.  Additionally, the cooler the paper in the K2
printer, the smoother the print will be, again because more LK can be used.
I have not tried a really cold paper like Premier Art's Matte BW or Red
River Polar, but they might be interesting.

With the LK as the only ink at first, the top highlights are actually rather
smooth.  The midtone grain is where some roughness can be seen, and whether
that is bothersome is a matter of how large the print is and one's
subjective views.  I can see the grain with reading glasses at the normal
14" viewing distance, but not at much further out.  I doubt I'll find it
objectionable in any large prints.  If I do, I'll just have to fall back to
one of the other B&W printing options for that particular print.  One reason
for the graphs of Lab A & B is so that people with any B&W inkset can print
larger versions that match the R1800 prints.

The Peregrine makes the smoother prints due to its cooler midtones and more
even tonal distribution.  It's marginal on the dmax -- low 160's v. PA 325's
high 1.60's (1.7 on a good day with some printers).  Whether the 0.05
difference really makes any difference may depend on the image.  

The 9600s should be as good as my 2200.  Both have 2880x1440 resolution and
4 pl dots.  Assuming this is the case, I'll probably be selling my 7500 and
farm out my large display printing.  I think I'm over color inks -- time to
spend more time doing B&W photography.

I hope this gives some guidance.  

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 





______________________________
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@...> wrote:
>
> The primary downside, from my perspective, of the R1800 100% 
carbon workflow
> I'm now using (see http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/R1800.pdf) is 
that the
> R1800 is limited to 13" wide paper, whereas I often make larger 
prints - 16
> x 20 inches and above. There is no large format printer that uses 
the small
> 1.5 picoliter drops of the R1800. However, using the 2200 as a 
test bed,
> I've made some profiles that appear to make good, 100% carbon 
large prints
> with K2 printers with MIS LK and Eboni in the usual K2 UC 
positions. See
> http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/K2-Eboni-LK.pdf I think this 
will allow
> those using the R1800 3-MK 100% carbon workflow to outsource their 
larger
> prints to those who have larger K2 printers and use MIS LK and 
Eboni MK.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> 
> 
> Paul
> 
> www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

[Digital BW] Re: Large 100% carbon display prints

2007-08-06 by Roger

> I hope this gives some guidance.  
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com 

This is extremely helpful and answers a number of questions I've had.  

I'm currently experimenting with QTR and the R220 and finding that it's 
possible to get a glossy dmax closer to 2.4 on Epson Premium Semi-Gloss 
rather than 2.04-2.10 or so through the driver (measured with PFP).

I have extra Eboni and might try this carbon approach with the R220 too 
to see if I like it.  I generally like Eboni's tone a lot and the look 
of black only prints (if not the banding/artifacts in smooth areas).

Re: Large 100% carbon display prints

2007-08-10 by scott_now_coming

Hi Paul,

Wouldn't this "3" system also work in a 4800, since it already has 
three black ink postions?

Is is possible to use Eboni in the MK position, and diluted Eboni in 
the Lk and LLK position?

If so, what ratio would you dilute the Eboni for Lk and LLK (and what 
do you use to dilute the Eboni?)

Thanks Paul.

Scott


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@...> wrote:
>
> The primary downside, from my perspective, of the R1800 100% carbon 
workflow
> I'm now using (see http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/R1800.pdf)  is 
that the
> R1800 is limited to 13" wide paper, whereas I often make larger 
prints - 16
> x 20 inches and above.  There is no large format printer that uses 
the small
> 1.5 picoliter drops of the R1800.  However, using the 2200 as a 
test bed,
> I've made some profiles that appear to make good, 100% carbon large 
prints
> with K2 printers with MIS LK and Eboni in the usual K2 UC 
positions.  See
> http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/K2-Eboni-LK.pdf   I think this 
will allow
> those using the R1800 3-MK 100% carbon workflow to outsource their 
larger
> prints to those who have larger K2 printers and use MIS LK and 
Eboni MK.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
>  
> 
> Paul
> 
> www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>  
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Large 100% carbon display prints

2007-08-17 by Paul Roark

Hi Scott,

>Wouldn't this "3" system also work in a 4800, since it 
>already has three black ink positions?

It has larger dots than the R1800, however.  So, it would have graininess
close to the 2200 I've been experimenting with to see how large display
prints would look.  My conclusion there is that with the right paper, large
display prints will probably be fine, but for smaller prints the graininess
is probably more than most would like to see.

>Is is possible to use Eboni in the MK position, and diluted 
> Eboni in the Lk and LLK position?

Dilute Eboni is no longer neutral.  It gets warm just like the other dilute
carbon inks.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

__________________________


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@...> wrote:
>
> The primary downside, from my perspective, of the R1800 100% carbon 
workflow
> I'm now using (see http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/R1800.pdf) is 
that the
> R1800 is limited to 13" wide paper, whereas I often make larger 
prints - 16
> x 20 inches and above. There is no large format printer that uses 
the small
> 1.5 picoliter drops of the R1800. However, using the 2200 as a 
test bed,
> I've made some profiles that appear to make good, 100% carbon large 
prints
> with K2 printers with MIS LK and Eboni in the usual K2 UC 
positions. See
> http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/K2-Eboni-LK.pdf I think this 
will allow
> those using the R1800 3-MK 100% carbon workflow to outsource their 
larger
> prints to those who have larger K2 printers and use MIS LK and 
Eboni MK.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> 
> 
> Paul
> 
> www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

[Digital BW] Re: Large 100% carbon display prints

2007-08-19 by scott_now_coming

Hi Paul,

"It has larger dots than the R1800, however. So, it would have 
graininess
close to the 2200 I've been experimenting with to see how large 
display
prints would look. My conclusion there is that with the right paper, 
large
display prints will probably be fine, but for smaller prints the 
graininess
is probably more than most would like to see."


Is this graininess (w/Epson 4800) that you speak of any more grainy 
that just using the BLACK setting with the Epson OEM inks?

I've been making 16x20 prints using the BLACK setting on the 4800 
w/PK.

I like the looks of the prints and the "easiness of use", without 
messing with the AWB control.

I'd like to switch over to MK, though, as was thinking that Eboni 
would give a warmer tone, compared to the Epson PK.

Thanks for the replies,

Scott

[Digital BW] Re: Large 100% carbon display prints

2007-08-19 by scott_now_coming

Ahhh, something just occured to me.

You are not diluting the Eboni when placed in the LK and LLK, hence 
QTR and curves.

I'm curious, though, of what can be done concerning the 4800 with 
Eboni and the method that your using for the R1800.

When printing on the 4800, I don't print smaller than 11x14", so 
maybe the graininess won't be an issue for me.

Plus, a little grain looks Tri-X (somewhat)and most of my large 
prints are from scanned negs anyhow.

Anyways, please report what your expireances are with the 4800 and 
the Eboni.

(Another option is to just buy a used 4000 and install Eboni and 
print B.O., but I really don't need ANOTHER printer!)

Thanks again,


Scott

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Scott,
> 
> >Wouldn't this "3" system also work in a 4800, since it 
> >already has three black ink positions?
> 
> It has larger dots than the R1800, however.  So, it would have 
graininess
> close to the 2200 I've been experimenting with to see how large 
display
> prints would look.  My conclusion there is that with the right 
paper, large
> display prints will probably be fine, but for smaller prints the 
graininess
> is probably more than most would like to see.
> 
> >Is is possible to use Eboni in the MK position, and diluted 
> > Eboni in the Lk and LLK position?
> 
> Dilute Eboni is no longer neutral.  It gets warm just like the 
other dilute
> carbon inks.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com 
> 
> __________________________
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
> <paul.roark@> wrote:
> >
> > The primary downside, from my perspective, of the R1800 100% 
carbon 
> workflow
> > I'm now using (see http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/R1800.pdf) is 
> that the
> > R1800 is limited to 13" wide paper, whereas I often make larger 
> prints - 16
> > x 20 inches and above. There is no large format printer that uses 
> the small
> > 1.5 picoliter drops of the R1800. However, using the 2200 as a 
> test bed,
> > I've made some profiles that appear to make good, 100% carbon 
large 
> prints
> > with K2 printers with MIS LK and Eboni in the usual K2 UC 
> positions. See
> > http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/K2-Eboni-LK.pdf I think this 
> will allow
> > those using the R1800 3-MK 100% carbon workflow to outsource 
their 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> larger
> > prints to those who have larger K2 printers and use MIS LK and 
> Eboni MK.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Paul
> > 
> > www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/> 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

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