Digital BW, The Print

I need some advise on printing images with dark skies and/or skies that 
have a distinct transition gradient from dark to lighter tones

Unlike most of you, I'm relatively new to digital b&W printing
and, as such, technically challenged when it comes to measuring dmax, 
creating profiles, etc.

I'm using a 3800 with k3 inks with matte papers that include VFA, HPR 
and MPR. For b&w I normally use the the ABW driver but even when using 
the RGB driver/media profiles the results invariably are the same.

I've also made test prints with all of the above papers with similar 
outcomes: solid black skies with no detail.

Without getting too technical,
can anybody shed some light?

Steve - I'm sure you're going to get a lot of different and probably conflicting
advice on your
situation.  Part of the answer would depend on how involved you're willing to
get with the technical
end of things.  For example, without knowing more, it's hard to tell whether the
problem lies with
your file or with your printing approach.  If you don't have a good monitor that
is calibrated well, you
may have problems with the file you're trying to print that aren't going to be
visible.  On the other
hand, if you trust the monitor image, it's time to start experimenting with the
different settings
available to you with whatever driver you're going to use to make your prints,
whether as RGB or
Grayscale files.

If you provide more information about your approach, you'll get more specific
advice, but there is
ultimately nothing like trial and error to really learn this stuff!

Stephen Petegorsky

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, petegorsky@... 
wrote:
>
> Steve - I'm sure you're going to get a lot of different and 
probably conflicting
> advice on your
> situation.  Part of the answer would depend on how involved you're 
willing to
> get with the technical
> end of things.  For example, without knowing more, it's hard to 
tell whether the
> problem lies with
> your file or with your printing approach.  If you don't have a good 
monitor that
> is calibrated well, you
> may have problems with the file you're trying to print that aren't 
going to be
> visible.  On the other
> hand, if you trust the monitor image, it's time to start 
experimenting with the
> different settings 
> available to you with whatever driver you're going to use to make 
your prints,
> whether as RGB or
> Grayscale files.
> 
> If you provide more information about your approach, you'll get 
more specific
> advice, but there is
> ultimately nothing like trial and error to really learn this stuff!
> 
> Stephen Petegorsky
>
Stephen, yes, my monitor is calibrated, this issue occurs only on 
prints with dark, featureless skies. Could this be a result of over 
inking?

Steve - it could be the result of many things, and I'd suggest trying to isolate
the variables as you
try to solve the problem.  If you're using the Epson driver, for example, you
could try cutting back
on the percentage of inking in 10% increments to see if there is any difference.

How is the rest of the image rendered?  Is the overall lightness/darkness and
contrast good, or is
there tonal compression in other dark areas?

SP

Steve-

You've question leads to a core issue in printing on the OEM path. You have an excellent printer, inks, and you're working with excellent papers. And, while ABW is pretty nifty, it is part of the "black box" that is the print driver software. This means you are printing through a embedded profile locked in the box; this, combined with the fact that Epson print drivers habitually lay down too much ink, can easily result in loss of tonal definition. In your case, the inability to replicate image code values into print tonality accurately.

If you want to stay on the OEM path, there are two options you can explore. First, make adjustments in the Printer Color Management panel; try using Normal or Light in the Tone menu. You can also experiment with the other controls in this panel, but I'd suggest making small moves, printing, trying again, until you get something usable. If you do find something usable, be sure to save the settings through the Presets menu. You'll have to do this for each paper in turn. Sorry.

Also, you can experiment with the Color Density slider found in the Paper Configuration panel. Again, make small changes, print, try again.

What you'll be doing, essentially, is twiddling with the knobs and switches attached to the black box. While this will allow you to stay on the OEM path, it will never produce the accurate print that a properly ink limited, linearized, and profiled system is capable of. Understand, I'm not advocating that you stray off the path. You may be able to tweak your workflow enough to solve the problem. You'll certainly learn a lot about the behavior of the print driver this way.


 


Bill Kennedy
K2 Press
Austin, Texas
Author of "The Photographer's Guide to the Digital Darkroom", Allworth Press.

-----Original Message-----
From: SteveZ <blizzie12@...>
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 10:23 am
Subject: [Digital BW] Dark skies and Dmax


















  



    

            
I need some advise on printing images with dark skies and/or skies that 

have a distinct transition gradient from dark to lighter tones



Unlike most of you, I'm relatively new to digital b&W printing

and, as such, technically challenged when it comes to measuring dmax, 

creating profiles, etc.



I'm using a 3800 with k3 inks with matte papers that include VFA, HPR 

and MPR. For b&w I normally use the the ABW driver but even when using 

the RGB driver/media profiles the results invariably are the same.



I've also made test prints with all of the above papers with similar 

outcomes: solid black skies with no detail.



Without getting too technical,

can anybody shed some light?





    
  

    
    




 


________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone.  Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Steve,

There are so many things here that could be wrong.

Here's my suggestion as to how you figure things out a bit more.

VFA + ABW is a great combo so I would start with that. You won't get a
better matte dmax than this combo.
If you have your image in Adobe RGB or Grey Gamma 2.2 and print with ABW set
to "normal" you will get a somewhat lighter image than you want but its
guaranteed not to bury your blacks. If it does then you have something wrong
with your printing settings.

If "normal" works I would now try, ABW set to "Dark" which should be about
right for an image in gamma 2.2

Beyond this you can get more sophisticated using a spectro and QTR Create
ICC
Also if you want to dive in deeper, Eric has a ton of info on this site
http://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/dp/Epson3800/

Good luck.

Mike


On 06/08/07, SteveZ <blizzie12@...> wrote:
>
>   I need some advise on printing images with dark skies and/or skies that
> have a distinct transition gradient from dark to lighter tones
>
> Unlike most of you, I'm relatively new to digital b&W printing
> and, as such, technically challenged when it comes to measuring dmax,
> creating profiles, etc.
>
> I'm using a 3800 with k3 inks with matte papers that include VFA, HPR
> and MPR. For b&w I normally use the the ABW driver but even when using
> the RGB driver/media profiles the results invariably are the same.
>
> I've also made test prints with all of the above papers with similar
> outcomes: solid black skies with no detail.
>
> Without getting too technical,
> can anybody shed some light?
>
> 
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To my eye, the rest of the image looks fine. Now when you say cutting 
back on % of ink in 10% increments, how does one do that?

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, petegorsky@... 
wrote:
>
> Steve - it could be the result of many things, and I'd suggest 
trying to isolate
> the variables as you
> try to solve the problem.  If you're using the Epson driver, for 
example, you
> could try cutting back
> on the percentage of inking in 10% increments to see if there is 
any difference.
> 
> How is the rest of the image rendered?  Is the overall 
lightness/darkness and

> contrast good, or is
> there tonal compression in other dark areas?
> 
> SP
>

Bill,

I do find that my 4800 ABW settings (linearity, inking etc.) for Epson
papers are great, Epson have clearly worked hard on this.
If you combine ABW+Epson Papers + QTR Create ICC you do have a very usable,
repeatable workflow that produces fantastic results on VFA and USFA.

I would agree that you have to work harder with non Epson papers that don't
hold as much ink, to make ABW work effectively, but its doable. I often find
that Textured Fine Art is the setting that works best for a lot of non-Epson
papers. It has a lighter ink load than other paper settings.

Mike


On 06/08/07, BKPhoto@... <BKPhoto@...> wrote:
>
>
> Steve-
>
> You've question leads to a core issue in printing on the OEM path. You
> have an excellent printer, inks, and you're working with excellent papers.
> And, while ABW is pretty nifty, it is part of the "black box" that is the
> print driver software. This means you are printing through a embedded
> profile locked in the box; this, combined with the fact that Epson print
> drivers habitually lay down too much ink, can easily result in loss of tonal
> definition. In your case, the inability to replicate image code values into
> print tonality accurately.
>
> If you want to stay on the OEM path, there are two options you can
> explore. First, make adjustments in the Printer Color Management panel; try
> using Normal or Light in the Tone menu. You can also experiment with the
> other controls in this panel, but I'd suggest making small moves, printing,
> trying again, until you get something usable. If you do find something
> usable, be sure to save the settings through the Presets menu. You'll have
> to do this for each paper in turn. Sorry.
>
> Also, you can experiment with the Color Density slider found in the Paper
> Configuration panel. Again, make small changes, print, try again.
>
> What you'll be doing, essentially, is twiddling with the knobs and
> switches attached to the black box. While this will allow you to stay on the
> OEM path, it will never produce the accurate print that a properly ink
> limited, linearized, and profiled system is capable of. Understand, I'm not
> advocating that you stray off the path. You may be able to tweak your
> workflow enough to solve the problem. You'll certainly learn a lot about the
> behavior of the print driver this way.
>
> Bill Kennedy
> K2 Press
> Austin, Texas
> Author of "The Photographer's Guide to the Digital Darkroom", Allworth
> Press.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: SteveZ <blizzie12@... <blizzie12%40yahoo.com>>
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com<DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 10:23 am
> Subject: [Digital BW] Dark skies and Dmax
>
> I need some advise on printing images with dark skies and/or skies that
>
> have a distinct transition gradient from dark to lighter tones
>
> Unlike most of you, I'm relatively new to digital b&W printing
>
> and, as such, technically challenged when it comes to measuring dmax,
>
> creating profiles, etc.
>
> I'm using a 3800 with k3 inks with matte papers that include VFA, HPR
>
> and MPR. For b&w I normally use the the ABW driver but even when using
>
> the RGB driver/media profiles the results invariably are the same.
>
> I've also made test prints with all of the above papers with similar
>
> outcomes: solid black skies with no detail.
>
> Without getting too technical,
>
> can anybody shed some light?
>
> __________________________________________________________
> AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
> from AOL at AOL.com.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> 
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bill,

I also find my 4800 ABW settings with Hahnemühle's German Etching 310  
roll stock, using their custom profile and VFA paper settings (as per  
Hahnemühle instructions) give me terrific results. Printed "Dark" the  
images just pop off the paper. IMHO :)

Alan

On Aug 6, 2007, at 8:57 AM, Michael King wrote:

> Bill,
>
> I do find that my 4800 ABW settings (linearity, inking etc.) for Epson
> papers are great, Epson have clearly worked hard on this.
> If you combine ABW+Epson Papers + QTR Create ICC you do have a very  
> usable,
> repeatable workflow that produces fantastic results on VFA and USFA.
>
> I would agree that you have to work harder with non Epson papers  
> that don't
> hold as much ink, to make ABW work effectively, but its doable. I  
> often find
> that Textured Fine Art is the setting that works best for a lot of  
> non-Epson
> papers. It has a lighter ink load than other paper settings.
>
> Mike
>
> On 06/08/07, BKPhoto@... <BKPhoto@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Steve-
> >
> > You've question leads to a core issue in printing on the OEM  
> path. You
> > have an excellent printer, inks, and you're working with  
> excellent papers.
> > And, while ABW is pretty nifty, it is part of the "black box"  
> that is the
> > print driver software. This means you are printing through a  
> embedded
> > profile locked in the box; this, combined with the fact that  
> Epson print
> > drivers habitually lay down too much ink, can easily result in  
> loss of tonal
> > definition. In your case, the inability to replicate image code  
> values into
> > print tonality accurately.
> >
> > If you want to stay on the OEM path, there are two options you can
> > explore. First, make adjustments in the Printer Color Management  
> panel; try
> > using Normal or Light in the Tone menu. You can also experiment  
> with the
> > other controls in this panel, but I'd suggest making small moves,  
> printing,
> > trying again, until you get something usable. If you do find  
> something
> > usable, be sure to save the settings through the Presets menu.  
> You'll have
> > to do this for each paper in turn. Sorry.
> >
> > Also, you can experiment with the Color Density slider found in  
> the Paper
> > Configuration panel. Again, make small changes, print, try again.
> >
> > What you'll be doing, essentially, is twiddling with the knobs and
> > switches attached to the black box. While this will allow you to  
> stay on the
> > OEM path, it will never produce the accurate print that a  
> properly ink
> > limited, linearized, and profiled system is capable of.  
> Understand, I'm not
> > advocating that you stray off the path. You may be able to tweak  
> your
> > workflow enough to solve the problem. You'll certainly learn a  
> lot about the
> > behavior of the print driver this way.
> >
> > Bill Kennedy
> > K2 Press
> > Austin, Texas
> > Author of "The Photographer's Guide to the Digital Darkroom",  
> Allworth
> > Press.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: SteveZ <blizzie12@... <blizzie12%40yahoo.com>>
> >  
> To:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com<DigitalBlackandWhiteTh 
> ePrint%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 10:23 am
> > Subject: [Digital BW] Dark skies and Dmax
> >
> > I need some advise on printing images with dark skies and/or  
> skies that
> >
> > have a distinct transition gradient from dark to lighter tones
> >
> > Unlike most of you, I'm relatively new to digital b&W printing
> >
> > and, as such, technically challenged when it comes to measuring  
> dmax,
> >
> > creating profiles, etc.
> >
> > I'm using a 3800 with k3 inks with matte papers that include VFA,  
> HPR
> >
> > and MPR. For b&w I normally use the the ABW driver but even when  
> using
> >
> > the RGB driver/media profiles the results invariably are the same.
> >
> > I've also made test prints with all of the above papers with similar
> >
> > outcomes: solid black skies with no detail.
> >
> > Without getting too technical,
> >
> > can anybody shed some light?
> >
> > __________________________________________________________
> > AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's  
> free
> > from AOL at AOL.com.
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

Quoting SteveZ <blizzie12@...>:

> To my eye, the rest of the image looks fine. Now when you say cutting
> back on % of ink in 10% increments, how does one do that?

When you're in the Epson print dialogue box, go to the box beneath "Presets" and
select "Ink
Configuration". In that box there is a slider that allows you to adjust "Color
Density".  You can
decrease the amount as a percentage.

SP

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, BKPhoto@... 
wrote:
>
> 
>  Steve-
> 
> You've question leads to a core issue in printing on the OEM path. 
You have an excellent printer, inks, and you're working with 
excellent papers. And, while ABW is pretty nifty, it is part of 
the "black box" that is the print driver software. This means you are 
printing through a embedded profile locked in the box; this, combined 
with the fact that Epson print drivers habitually lay down too much 
ink, can easily result in loss of tonal definition. In your case, the 
inability to replicate image code values into print tonality 
accurately.
> 
> If you want to stay on the OEM path, there are two options you can 
explore. First, make adjustments in the Printer Color Management 
panel; try using Normal or Light in the Tone menu. You can also 
experiment with the other controls in this panel, but I'd suggest 
making small moves, printing, trying again, until you get something 
usable. If you do find something usable, be sure to save the settings 
through the Presets menu. You'll have to do this for each paper in 
turn. Sorry.
> 
> Also, you can experiment with the Color Density slider found in the 
Paper Configuration panel. Again, make small changes, print, try 
again.
> 
> What you'll be doing, essentially, is twiddling with the knobs and 
switches attached to the black box. While this will allow you to stay 
on the OEM path, it will never produce the accurate print that a 
properly ink limited, linearized, and profiled system is capable of. 
Understand, I'm not advocating that you stray off the path. You may 
be able to tweak your workflow enough to solve the problem. You'll 
certainly learn a lot about the behavior of the print driver this way.
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> Bill Kennedy
> K2 Press
> Austin, Texas
> Author of "The Photographer's Guide to the Digital Darkroom", 
Allworth Press.
> 
> Thanks, Bill, this helps!
>  
> 
> 
>  
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: SteveZ <blizzie12@...>
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 10:23 am
> Subject: [Digital BW] Dark skies and Dmax
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
>     
> 
>             
> I need some advise on printing images with dark skies and/or skies 
that 
> 
> have a distinct transition gradient from dark to lighter tones
> 
> 
> 
> Unlike most of you, I'm relatively new to digital b&W printing
> 
> and, as such, technically challenged when it comes to measuring 
dmax, 
> 
> creating profiles, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm using a 3800 with k3 inks with matte papers that include VFA, 
HPR 
> 
> and MPR. For b&w I normally use the the ABW driver but even when 
using 
> 
> the RGB driver/media profiles the results invariably are the same.
> 
> 
> 
> I've also made test prints with all of the above papers with 
similar 
> 
> outcomes: solid black skies with no detail.
> 
> 
> 
> Without getting too technical,
> 
> can anybody shed some light?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>     
>   
> 
>     
>     
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
______________________________________________________________________
__
> AOL now offers free email to everyone.  Find out more about what's 
free from AOL at AOL.com.

> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>