Digital BW, The Print

I'm interested in converting a used Epson 4800 printer to a dedicated 
B&W printer (using no K3 inks).  My goal is to produce prints that 
match (as close as possible) to the WARM NEUTRAL tones you see in 
Lenswork magazine.  Lenswork uses a Black color and a Warm Gray color 
for their duotones.

I was told this is the forum to go to for the answers.  My research 
have produced a short list of things to consider for the switchover.  
Can anyone give me THEIR take on which...

1.  inks to use?  (MIS UT-3D vs. Piezography K7 Split Tone)

2.  RIPs to use?  (Bowhaus IJC/OPM vs. Quadtone RIP vs. Ergosoft 
StudioPrint vs. Colorbyte Imageprint)

3.  spectrophotometer to use?  (EyeOne - not sure which model vs. 
Printfix Pro v2.0)

4.  matte/glossy papers to use?  (Hahnemuhle Fine Art Baryta, 
Hahnemuhle Fine Art Pearl, Moab Colorado Fiber Satine, Intelicoat 
Magiclee Siena, Epson Exhibition Fiber, Harman FB AL Gloss, Pictorico 
White Film, Epson Ultrasmooth Fine Art, Inova FibaPrint, Museo Crane 
Silver Rag) - which papers/finishes works best under which situations?

Please elaborate on your recommendations by discussing some of the 
issues, pros & cons, good/bad experiences, tradeoffs, and why get one 
over another?

I would like to figure out the best ink/RIP combination to use based 
on people's recommendations.  I also want to settle on no more than a 
couple of matte and a couple of glossy papers to use.  Too time 
consuming and too expensive to flip-flop between all the different 
papers out there.

Thanks.

Hello and welcome!

You've come to the right place to find answers to your questions, for sure. However, I will 
say that you have basically asked for a quick summation of a lot of material that's been 
very thoroughly tested and discussed here at quite some length and for quite some time.

So, my first suggestion, and it's just a suggestion, is for you to start searching through the 
archives for each specific part of your overall query. There is a ton of really useful stuff 
here, and you might find yourself better served by reading through the many opinions and 
test results at your leisure. There are just way too many variables here to consider a short 
answer from just a few people sufficient. Preferences are verrrrry individual. Just within ink 
and paper choices alone you will find an array of combinations that could make your head 
spin. "which papers/finishes works best under which situations?" there aren't enough days 
in the year to even come close to completely answering that question in one post, or even 
ten.

That is why I suggest the archives...after some research, you might be able to narrow your 
questions down to something the super-knowledgable testers and practitioners here can 
give you a specific answer to....without repeating months of posts.

Best of luck!
Sarah



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "c1asia" <c1asia@...> wrote:

>
> I'm interested in converting a used Epson 4800 printer to a dedicated 
> B&W printer (using no K3 inks).  My goal is to produce prints that 
> match (as close as possible) to the WARM NEUTRAL tones you see in 
> Lenswork magazine.  Lenswork uses a Black color and a Warm Gray color 
> for their duotones.
> 
> I was told this is the forum to go to for the answers.  My research 
> have produced a short list of things to consider for the switchover.  
> Can anyone give me THEIR take on which...
> 
> 1.  inks to use?  (MIS UT-3D vs. Piezography K7 Split Tone)
> 
> 2.  RIPs to use?  (Bowhaus IJC/OPM vs. Quadtone RIP vs. Ergosoft 
> StudioPrint vs. Colorbyte Imageprint)
> 
> 3.  spectrophotometer to use?  (EyeOne - not sure which model vs. 
> Printfix Pro v2.0)
> 
> 4.  matte/glossy papers to use?  (Hahnemuhle Fine Art Baryta, 
> Hahnemuhle Fine Art Pearl, Moab Colorado Fiber Satine, Intelicoat 
> Magiclee Siena, Epson Exhibition Fiber, Harman FB AL Gloss, Pictorico 
> White Film, Epson Ultrasmooth Fine Art, Inova FibaPrint, Museo Crane 
> Silver Rag) - which papers/finishes works best under which situations?
> 
> Please elaborate on your recommendations by discussing some of the 
> issues, pros & cons, good/bad experiences, tradeoffs, and why get one 
> over another?
> 
> I would like to figure out the best ink/RIP combination to use based 
> on people's recommendations.  I also want to settle on no more than a 
> couple of matte and a couple of glossy papers to use.  Too time 
> consuming and too expensive to flip-flop between all the different 
> papers out there.
> 
> Thanks.
>

if you set your printer settings properly in your
Epson print settings, which are the last set you go
through, there is a setting for using only the black
inks.
--- c1asia <c1asia@...> wrote:

> I'm interested in converting a used Epson 4800
> printer to a dedicated 
> B&W printer (using no K3 inks).  My goal is to
> produce prints that 
> match (as close as possible) to the WARM NEUTRAL
> tones you see in 
> Lenswork magazine.  Lenswork uses a Black color and
> a Warm Gray color 
> for their duotones.
> 
> I was told this is the forum to go to for the
> answers.  My research 
> have produced a short list of things to consider for
> the switchover.  
> Can anyone give me THEIR take on which...
> 
> 1.  inks to use?  (MIS UT-3D vs. Piezography K7
> Split Tone)
> 
> 2.  RIPs to use?  (Bowhaus IJC/OPM vs. Quadtone RIP
> vs. Ergosoft 
> StudioPrint vs. Colorbyte Imageprint)
> 
> 3.  spectrophotometer to use?  (EyeOne - not sure
> which model vs. 
> Printfix Pro v2.0)
> 
> 4.  matte/glossy papers to use?  (Hahnemuhle Fine
> Art Baryta, 
> Hahnemuhle Fine Art Pearl, Moab Colorado Fiber
> Satine, Intelicoat 
> Magiclee Siena, Epson Exhibition Fiber, Harman FB AL
> Gloss, Pictorico 
> White Film, Epson Ultrasmooth Fine Art, Inova
> FibaPrint, Museo Crane 
> Silver Rag) - which papers/finishes works best under
> which situations?
> 
> Please elaborate on your recommendations by
> discussing some of the 
> issues, pros & cons, good/bad experiences,
> tradeoffs, and why get one 
> over another?
> 
> I would like to figure out the best ink/RIP
> combination to use based 
> on people's recommendations.  I also want to settle
> on no more than a 
> couple of matte and a couple of glossy papers to
> use.  Too time 
> consuming and too expensive to flip-flop between all
> the different 
> papers out there.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> 
> 



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Thanks Sarah.  The reason I posted this message was because when I 
searched the archives, my head started to spin.  There is so much 
information that I can't possibly weed through it all; let alone trying 
to make sense of all the finer points.  I was hoping that people can 
provide their thoughts.  I agree it's an individual thing but I just 
want a starting point and then form my own opinion over time.  Besides, 
things change constantly so it's nice to stimulate new conversations as 
new ideas may emerge.

So let me ask you... which inkset would you prefer and why?

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "c1asia" <c1asia@...> wrote:
>
> I'm interested in converting a used Epson 4800 printer to a dedicated 
> B&W printer (using no K3 inks).  My goal is to produce prints that 
> match (as close as possible) to the WARM NEUTRAL tones you see in 
> Lenswork magazine. ...
...
> 1.  inks to use?  (MIS UT-3D vs. Piezography K7 Split Tone)

I use Piezography inks. A dual set of Piezotones warm/sepia/selenium mix in a 9600, and 
a selenium MPS k7 setup in a 7800. There is no K7 setup that will resemble the Lenswork 
print hue right now. Perhaps if/when Jon comes out with a warm K7 mps set that will 
change.
There may be an MIS solution and perhaps someone with experience there will chime in.

> 2.  RIPs to use?  (Bowhaus IJC/OPM vs. Quadtone RIP vs. Ergosoft 
> StudioPrint vs. Colorbyte Imageprint)

THis decision comes after the ink choice decision, as each will have a particular work flow 
dependent on one of those drivers, or in fact the native driver.

> 3.  spectrophotometer to use?  (EyeOne - not sure which model vs. 
> Printfix Pro v2.0)

depends on what is selected above. In fact, you may not even need one.

> 4.  matte/glossy papers to use?  (Hahnemuhle Fine Art Baryta, 
> Hahnemuhle Fine Art Pearl, Moab Colorado Fiber Satine, Intelicoat 
> Magiclee Siena, Epson Exhibition Fiber, Harman FB AL Gloss, Pictorico 
> White Film, Epson Ultrasmooth Fine Art, Inova FibaPrint, Museo Crane 
> Silver Rag) - which papers/finishes works best under which situations?

purely a subjective personal choice, and also dependent on the ink choice as many of them 
will only print on some of those papers and not others. Few ink sets will allow you to print 
on both. Get a bunch of sample packs.
In fact your only options for that look and choice of surface may be an OEM choice.
It may be worth looking at the HP printers as well.

I don't think the market has a perfect solution for your stated needs right now.
Tyler

Trust me, I know about the head spinning thing. It can be daunting and time consuming to 
search the archives but I've found it's very worthwhile. That said, I'm sure you will get 
enough immediate replies to get you started in your quest for Lenswork-type prints. There 
are some individuals on this forum that have work published in Lenswork, so hopefully 
they will see your post.

I'm not a good person to ask, as far as those type of prints go. I am currently exploring 
Paul Roark's MK3 (black only, 3 channel) and Eboni-6 methods (available for older Epson's 
in about a month), using only carbon inks. Prior, I have been printing BO (black only, 
single channel) on a 2200 with Eboni with matte papers (see Clayton Jones's excellent 
website on this topic), specifically Premier Art Hot Press or Hahnemuhle. My high contrst 
work is well suited for it. I do highly recommend QTR as a RIP, especially if you want to 
create your own ICC profiles. However, I know a lot of people equally love the others you 
mentioned just as well. It is indeed a matter of personal preference.

Have you read any of Paul Roark's stuff? You mention UT-3D so perhaps you have. But I 
would take a look at his PDFs...a wealth of options there.

http://www.paulroark.com/

I would also check out Tyler Boley's website. I believe he is giving a master printing 
workshop in May, if you are anywhere near Berkely, Ca. He's an incredible printer and 
photographer, with extensive piezography experience.

I wish you all the best here. I feel so fortunate to have found this forum...it has helped me 
tremendously. The knowledge is varied and people are very forthcoming and generous 
sharing it.

best,
Sarah


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "c1asia" <c1asia@...> wrote:

>
> Thanks Sarah.  The reason I posted this message was because when I 
> searched the archives, my head started to spin.  There is so much 
> information that I can't possibly weed through it all; let alone trying 
> to make sense of all the finer points.  I was hoping that people can 
> provide their thoughts.  I agree it's an individual thing but I just 
> want a starting point and then form my own opinion over time.  Besides, 
> things change constantly so it's nice to stimulate new conversations as 
> new ideas may emerge.
> 
> So let me ask you... which inkset would you prefer and why?
>

I just read Sarah's post. Although I have never been published in
LensWork, nor have I had the opportunity to hold one copy in my hands,
I remember Paul Roark's mentioning in this PDF:

http://paulroark.com/BW%2DInfo/R1800-OBA-Papers.pdf 

"Split tones with warm shadows characterize many papers, and many are
somewhat reminiscent of the tones used by LensWork magazine. (Compare
also the Premier Art Matte BW, above, which has about the same degree
of split tone in Lab B, but is cooler.)"

I suggest you read this as it might be the look you are searching for.
I use Premier Art Matte BW and there is a definite split tone there. 

And the 3MK with Eboni ink is very inexpensive in terms of ink cost. I
just do all my prints this way now. Then comes the great paper
chase... that you'll find on Clayton's website. :-)

Good luck in your quest,

Denis Bouchard


 That said, I'm sure you will get 
> enough immediate replies to get you started in your quest for
Lenswork-type prints. There 
> are some individuals on this forum that have work published in
Lenswork, so hopefully 
> they will see your post.
> 

> Paul Roark's MK3 (black only, 3 channel) and Eboni-6 methods
(available for older Epson's 
> in about a month), using only carbon inks. Prior, I have been
printing BO (black only, 
> single channel) on a 2200 with Eboni with matte papers (see Clayton
Jones's excellent 
> website on this topic), specifically Premier Art Hot Press or
Hahnemuhle. My high contrst 
> work is well suited for it. I do highly recommend QTR as a RIP,
especially if you want to 
> create your own ICC profiles. However, I know a lot of people
equally love the others you 

> mentioned just as well. It is indeed a matter of personal preference.
> 

>

"c1asia" <c1asia@...> wrote:
>
> I'm interested in converting a used Epson 4800 printer 
> to a dedicated B&W printer (using no K3 inks).  

> My goal is to produce prints that 
> match (as close as possible) to the WARM NEUTRAL tones 
> you see in Lenswork magazine.  Lenswork uses a Black 
> color and a Warm Gray color for their duotones.

I'm a LensWork fan myself.  So, I measured the tones of those 
images.  To be objective about color, I suggest you compare Lab 
readings.  See page 3 of http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/R1800-OBA-
Papers.pdf for a graph of the Lab A & B tones for the LensWork 
images.  

These graphs are made by reading a 21-step test strip from the 0% 
paper white on the left to the dmax -- 100% black -- on the right.  
For more information on how to interprete the graphs, see 
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/R1800-Paper.pdf  

As you can see from the LensWork graph at page 3 of 
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/R1800-OBA-Papers.pdf LensWork uses a 
cold paper with warm shadows.  As you can see from the other graphs 
in that PDF, if you were using the R1800 3-MK workflow you could get 
close easily on at least a few matte papers.

With the 4800, that inkset will not work -- dots are too big.

But, now you have an objective target for what you like.

At page 6 of http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eboni-6.pdf I have a 
number of graphs for different papers using the latest inkset I'm 
using in the non-1.5 picoliter printers.  The graphs there will tell 
you what paper will have a paper white similar to the LensWork 
paper.  Premier Art Smooth BW is very close -- at the paper white.  
It is not close in terms of its split tone or shadow Lab B when the 
Eboni-6 inkset is used.  But at least those graphs get you some idea 
of what will hit the paper white end.  

Note at page 7 of http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eboni-6.pdf the 
Photo Rag graph.  That has a split tone, but the warmth is much more 
in the light midtones, and then the shadows good cooler.  So, it does 
not really have the same look.

 
> 1.  inks to use?  (MIS UT-3D vs. Piezography K7 Split Tone)

I would not use the 3D in a large format unless you use the printer 
almost daily and you dislike the idea of color inks being separate 
from the carbon inks.  I stopped using my MIS blended inksets in 
large format and went to a system of carbon inks and separate LC and 
LM.  See http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/4K+.pdf and particularly 
page 4 that shows the tonal instability I ran into.

I have not used the K7 inkset.  

You could achieve the tones you want with the separate carbon + LC & 
LM approach.  MIS UT carbon is about the warmth you want in the 
shadows.

> 
> 2.  RIPs to use?  (Bowhaus IJC/OPM vs. Quadtone RIP vs. Ergosoft 
> StudioPrint vs. Colorbyte Imageprint)

QTR is probably the most widely used rip on this forum.  It's what I 
use and recommend. It gives me more control than IJC.  I have not 
used the more expensive rips.

I think the QTR ability to use sliders to go between warm and cool or 
neutral profiles may help you hit your tone target.  

The MIS UT carbon inks are about what you want for the shadows, and 
they are glossy or matte paper compatible.  

For the more neutral light midtones I have no recommendation for a 
blended matte and glossy compatible inkset.  The MIS UT-R2-Neutrals 
or UT-RC neutrals or cools might do, but you'll probably have the ink 
separation problem if you don't use the printer often.  If you do use 
the printer regularly, then these are possible choices.  

If you use only matte papers, then Piezo selenium comes to mind.


> 3.  spectrophotometer to use?  (EyeOne - not sure which model vs. 
> Printfix Pro v2.0)

I use the PFP.  It's very affordalbe and fine for 21-step B&W, but 
the lack of a strip reader on the model I have makes it inadequate 
for color (which is OK with me). 

 
> 4.  matte/glossy papers to use? 

This is a huge question.  Look at the graphs in the URLs noted 
above.  If you want to match LensWork, you'll need to know the paper 
white.  You need to decide matte v. gloss.  Once you've made those 
cuts, you've really narrowed the field.  A "profilable" inkset with 
multiple Ks, LC and LM can then match your target, but it'll take 
some skill in using a rip.

You've asked a very large question.  Hitting that target dead on is 
going to take some skill and work.  Frankly, I think you could to it 
with a 4800, the OEM ink placement, and QTR.  But, those of us who 
prefer dedicated B&W would certainly rather pull the excess color and 
put on more carbon.  

I'd use multiple MIS UT carbons, LC and LM (all un-blended, stable 
inks), and QTR.  I'd have both Eboni MK and MIS 4K-PK in the printer 
so that I could use both matte and glossy papers without switching 
inks.  I'd also have a channel of MIS Glop (gloss optimizer) in the 
printer.

Good luck with the project.

Paul   
www.PaulRoark.com

hmm...  much to ponder about without getting analysis-paralysis.  
thanks to all the responses so far to get me thinking.  certainly a 
complex problem with many things to consider. i probably should 
clarify to say that my expectations are not to match lenswork 
exactly.  i don't need to hit the target dead on.  just want to get 
close and then tweak it to my taste from there.

paul, can you elaborate a bit on your ink selection comments?  when i 
checked with MIS, they said the only ink available for the 4800 
printer was the ultratone-3D, so some of the inks you mentioned 
(e.g., Eboni MK, MIS 4K-PK) is not available for my printer.

also, can you explain why knowing paper white is important?  and how 
do i measure paper white?  and what do i do with the measurement once 
i get it?  are there paper white data published anywhere without my 
having to go through and measure each and every one i'm interested in?

what i've gathered from your comments so far is to use...
1.  MIS inkset (but not sure which ones for the 4800) with one 
channel for the gloss optimizer
2.  QTR
3.  PrintFix Pro
4.  papers (dependent on paper white) - maybe premier art smooth BW 
as a starting point.

correct?

"c1asia" wrote:

> ... my expectations are not to match lenswork exactly...
> just want to get close and then tweak it to my taste from there.
 
> paul, can you elaborate a bit on your ink selection comments? 

> when i checked with MIS, they said the only ink available 
> for the 4800 printer was the ultratone-3D, ...

If they have the carts, you can put any of their UltraTone B&W 
pigments in those carts.  

> (e.g., Eboni MK, MIS 4K-PK) is not available for my printer.

Yes, they are all there in bulk.  All the MK MIS sells for the B&W 
pigment inksets is Eboni.  The PK comes in two forms -- the K4 for 
modern fast printers, and the MP and 7600 for the older ones.  I 
think the 4800 needs the K4 PK.  It's available on many of there 
pages in bulk.

> also, can you explain why knowing paper white is important?

Many of the papers are getting very bright.  The average person 
prefers some brighteners, but you can see from the thread earlier 
today that many do not like it.  It's a matter of taste.  

>  and how do i measure paper white?

A spectrophotometer is the best method to measure it.

>  and what do i do with the measurement once i get it?

It's just one of many paper characteristics.

> are there paper white data published anywhere without my 
> having to go through and measure each and every one 
> i'm interested in?

I'm not sure if there is a complete list.  I have some information in 
my latest write-ups where I publish the graphs of paper tones.


> what i've gathered from your comments so far is to use...
> 1.  MIS inkset (but not sure which ones for the 4800) with one 
> channel for the gloss optimizer
> 2.  QTR
> 3.  PrintFix Pro
> 4.  papers (dependent on paper white) - maybe premier art smooth BW 
> as a starting point.

I don't want to push the PA Smooth BW too much.  It just happens to 
print well with the Eboni-6 I'm now using, and it has a paper white 
that is very close to the LensWork paper.

There is a lot to learn here.  If you're just starting out, a turnkey 
approach is obviously simpler -- but also less flexible.  So, if 
you're feeling overwhelmed, you might want to consider an approach 
that is well supported.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com