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Digital BW, The Print

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Help making BW profiles

Help making BW profiles

2008-05-11 by slcphoto73

I also posted this to the WideFormat group, but think there may be
some folks here who don't read that. Sorry if this is a problem for
anyone.

I have a 3800 and a spectrophotometer and I make my own color ICC
profiles using I1 Match3. I would LOVE to make my own BW profiles, but
I cannot find anywhere a "Making your own BW profiles for dummies"
explanation. Yes, I have gone to Eric Chan's wonderful site, and I
have read Giorgio Trucco's explanation. And I have QTR and the Measure
Tool. But I am confused still, possibly because I am missing something
about "measuring ink densities" and "linearization" and QTR curves and
….  

If anyone knows of a simple, step-by-step description of the procedure
with explanations for each step intended for people new to making BW
profiles and therefore not assuming prior knowledge, please pretty
please with sugar on top let me (and others) know about it.

Or, if someone is willing to be my tutor-by-email, let me know. Once I
understand it I will write up the procedure for other newbies.

Meanwhile, I am using the Epson driver with ABW for BW printing as I
am getting better results than with QTR out-of-the-box. 

Oh, and I wish there were a way around the Epson Vista 3800 driver's
limitation of media types to only the Epson papers. Will making my own
BW profiles (once I figure out how) for various 3rd party papers make
this limitation moot?

Thanks for any and all help,

   - susan, slchapin@...

Re: Help making BW profiles

2008-05-12 by steve_wadlington

I feel your pain. I'm in the middle of massive confusion myself on 
all that is to be done.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "slcphoto73" 
<slchapin@...> wrote:
>
> I also posted this to the WideFormat group, but think there may be
> some folks here who don't read that. Sorry if this is a problem for
> anyone.
> 
> I have a 3800 and a spectrophotometer and I make my own color ICC
> profiles using I1 Match3. I would LOVE to make my own BW profiles, 
but
> I cannot find anywhere a "Making your own BW profiles for dummies"
> explanation. Yes, I have gone to Eric Chan's wonderful site, and I
> have read Giorgio Trucco's explanation. And I have QTR and the 
Measure
> Tool. But I am confused still, possibly because I am missing 
something
> about "measuring ink densities" and "linearization" and QTR curves 
and
> 
.  
> 
> If anyone knows of a simple, step-by-step description of the 
procedure
> with explanations for each step intended for people new to making BW
> profiles and therefore not assuming prior knowledge, please pretty
> please with sugar on top let me (and others) know about it.
> 
> Or, if someone is willing to be my tutor-by-email, let me know. 
Once I
> understand it I will write up the procedure for other newbies.
> 
> Meanwhile, I am using the Epson driver with ABW for BW printing as I
> am getting better results than with QTR out-of-the-box. 
> 
> Oh, and I wish there were a way around the Epson Vista 3800 driver's
> limitation of media types to only the Epson papers. Will making my 
own
> BW profiles (once I figure out how) for various 3rd party papers 
make
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> this limitation moot?
> 
> Thanks for any and all help,
> 
>    - susan, slchapin@...
>

Re: Help making BW profiles

2008-05-12 by slcphoto73

OK, with a lot of help (see discussion in the EpsonWideFormat group, I
came up with the following For Dummies summary:

     Creating and Using Your Own Grayscale Profiles (Windows)

Based on information gleaned from Eric Chan, Giorgio Trucco, Stephen
Best, and Walker Blackwell.

1.  Acquire the necessary tools

- A spectrophotometer (I think it has to be the I1.)

- QuadTone RIP (QTR includes a Step 51 Gray chart which you print and
measure and the software that creates the profile. On Windows, go to
http://software.sbillard.org/QTRgui.htm )

- MeasureTool from GretagMacbeth (Download the GretagMacbeth
ProfileMaker demo version and install the MeasureTool.  MeasureTool
will run without a dongle, so you don't need to actually buy the
expensive ProfileMaker to use it.)

2.  Make the test print

-  Open QTR\eye-one\Step-51-gray.tif into Photoshop, telling Photoshop
"don't color manage"

-  Print it onto the paper for which you are making the profile

      - In the Photoshop print dialog box, select "no color management"

      - In the print driver dialog box, specify Advanced Black and
White with whatever other settings you want to use for this paper.
Giorgio Trucco recommends "…using the Dark  setting for better linearity."

      - Let the print dry

3.  Use MeasureTool and your spectrophotometer to read the target

-  Open MeasureTool

-  Select "Configuring"

      -  Specify "reflection" (for measuring paper) and leave Spectral
toggles unchecked (this exports as LAB values) 

      -  Specify your measurement device. I found I had to select it
even if it already appeared in the dropdown window.

-  Select "Measuring"

      - Select the chart you printed (QTR 51 Gray) (I think I remember
that I had to copy QTR-Gray-51.txt from the QTR program files folder
into C:\Program Files\GretagMacbeth\ProfileMaker Professional
5.0.8\Reference Files\Printer)

      - Follow the instructions to measure the chart

- Select File/SaveAs to save the result as .txt

4.  Turn the .txt file into a profile

-  Copy the .txt file to QTR\eye-one (WARNING: on Windows Vista I
found I had to copy QTR_Create_ICC.exe to a regular directory, one
that is not UAC controlled, and put the .txt file in the same directory)

- Drag/drop the .txt file into QTR_Create_ICC.exe (If no .icc file
appears check the –out.txt file (also created by QTR_Create_ICC.exe).
There may be an explanatory warning message at the bottom.)

-  Put the new profile into where your color profiles are kept. On
Windows/Vista, that is C:\Windows\System32\spool\drivers\color

5.  To use the gray profile to soft proof

-  Works just like a color profile

-  Rendering intent must be Perceptual

-  Do use black point compensation

6.  To use the gray profile to print

-  Make sure your image is in mode RGB – convert it if necessary

-  In Photoshop print dialog

      -  Let Photoshop determine colors

      -  Select the QTR profile

      -  Select "perceptual" rendering intent because QTR only
supports perceptual

      -  Do check black point compensation

-  In the printer driver dialog set the driver to the same settings as
used to print the QTR 51 Gray chart.

Hope this is correct and helpful. Any improvements/suggestions are
welcome; eventually this file should be posted to the Web somewhere
for others to find (I don't have a Web site).

  - susan

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Help making BW profiles

2008-05-13 by Gary Weaver

Or, you can just eyeball the print  :  )

gar

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 5/12/08 at 7:52 PM slcphoto73 wrote:

>OK, with a lot of help (see discussion in the EpsonWideFormat group, I
>came up with the following For Dummies summary:
>
>     Creating and Using Your Own Grayscale Profiles (Windows)
>
>Based on information gleaned from Eric Chan, Giorgio Trucco, Stephen
>Best, and Walker Blackwell.
>
>1.  Acquire the necessary tools
>
>- A spectrophotometer (I think it has to be the I1.)
>
>- QuadTone RIP (QTR includes a Step 51 Gray chart which you print and
>measure and the software that creates the profile. On Windows, go to
>http://software.sbillard.org/QTRgui.htm )
>
>- MeasureTool from GretagMacbeth (Download the GretagMacbeth
>ProfileMaker demo version and install the MeasureTool.  MeasureTool
>will run without a dongle, so you don't need to actually buy the
>expensive ProfileMaker to use it.)
>
>2.  Make the test print
>
>-  Open QTR\eye-one\Step-51-gray.tif into Photoshop, telling Photoshop
>"don't color manage"
>
>-  Print it onto the paper for which you are making the profile
>
>      - In the Photoshop print dialog box, select "no color management"
>
>      - In the print driver dialog box, specify Advanced Black and
>White with whatever other settings you want to use for this paper.
>Giorgio Trucco recommends "
using the Dark  setting for better linearity."
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
>      - Let the print dry
>
>3.  Use MeasureTool and your spectrophotometer to read the target
>
>-  Open MeasureTool
>
>-  Select "Configuring"
>
>      -  Specify "reflection" (for measuring paper) and leave Spectral
>toggles unchecked (this exports as LAB values) 
>
>      -  Specify your measurement device. I found I had to select it
>even if it already appeared in the dropdown window.
>
>-  Select "Measuring"
>
>      - Select the chart you printed (QTR 51 Gray) (I think I remember
>that I had to copy QTR-Gray-51.txt from the QTR program files folder
>into C:\Program Files\GretagMacbeth\ProfileMaker Professional
>5.0.8\Reference Files\Printer)
>
>      - Follow the instructions to measure the chart
>
>- Select File/SaveAs to save the result as .txt
>
>4.  Turn the .txt file into a profile
>
>-  Copy the .txt file to QTR\eye-one (WARNING: on Windows Vista I
>found I had to copy QTR_Create_ICC.exe to a regular directory, one
>that is not UAC controlled, and put the .txt file in the same directory)
>
>- Drag/drop the .txt file into QTR_Create_ICC.exe (If no .icc file
>appears check the –out.txt file (also created by QTR_Create_ICC.exe).
>There may be an explanatory warning message at the bottom.)
>
>-  Put the new profile into where your color profiles are kept. On
>Windows/Vista, that is C:\Windows\System32\spool\drivers\color
>
>5.  To use the gray profile to soft proof
>
>-  Works just like a color profile
>
>-  Rendering intent must be Perceptual
>
>-  Do use black point compensation
>
>6.  To use the gray profile to print
>
>-  Make sure your image is in mode RGB – convert it if necessary
>
>-  In Photoshop print dialog
>
>      -  Let Photoshop determine colors
>
>      -  Select the QTR profile
>
>      -  Select "perceptual" rendering intent because QTR only
>supports perceptual
>
>      -  Do check black point compensation
>
>-  In the printer driver dialog set the driver to the same settings as
>used to print the QTR 51 Gray chart.
>
>Hope this is correct and helpful. Any improvements/suggestions are
>welcome; eventually this file should be posted to the Web somewhere
>for others to find (I don't have a Web site).
>
>  - susan
> 
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
>they are often being updated.
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
>unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
>page.
>
>Please follow these basic guidelines:
>- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
>them short.
>- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
>Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
>membership without notice.
>- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
>printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
>the membership.
>- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
>guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner
>and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the Files
>section:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
>BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
>YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” AND
>“MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO
>YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
>EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
>PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE 
>“OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN
>ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE
>OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
>UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii)
>STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
>YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
>PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Re: Help making BW profiles

2008-05-13 by steveabrink

Great info - thanks!  Does it have to be the I1 spectro or can I use 
Print Fix Pro?

SteveB 

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Weaver" 
<garww@...> wrote:
>
> Or, you can just eyeball the print  :  )
> 
> gar
> 
> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
> 
> On 5/12/08 at 7:52 PM slcphoto73 wrote:
> 
> >OK, with a lot of help (see discussion in the EpsonWideFormat 
group, I
> >came up with the following For Dummies summary:
> >
> >     Creating and Using Your Own Grayscale Profiles (Windows)
> >
> >Based on information gleaned from Eric Chan, Giorgio Trucco, 
Stephen
> >Best, and Walker Blackwell.
> >
> >1.  Acquire the necessary tools
> >
> >- A spectrophotometer (I think it has to be the I1.)
> >
> >- QuadTone RIP (QTR includes a Step 51 Gray chart which you print 
and
> >measure and the software that creates the profile. On Windows, go 
to
> >http://software.sbillard.org/QTRgui.htm )
> >
> >- MeasureTool from GretagMacbeth (Download the GretagMacbeth
> >ProfileMaker demo version and install the MeasureTool.  MeasureTool
> >will run without a dongle, so you don't need to actually buy the
> >expensive ProfileMaker to use it.)
> >
> >2.  Make the test print
> >
> >-  Open QTR\eye-one\Step-51-gray.tif into Photoshop, telling 
Photoshop
> >"don't color manage"
> >
> >-  Print it onto the paper for which you are making the profile
> >
> >      - In the Photoshop print dialog box, select "no color 
management"
> >
> >      - In the print driver dialog box, specify Advanced Black and
> >White with whatever other settings you want to use for this paper.
> >Giorgio Trucco recommends "
using the Dark  setting for better 
linearity."
> >
> >      - Let the print dry
> >
> >3.  Use MeasureTool and your spectrophotometer to read the target
> >
> >-  Open MeasureTool
> >
> >-  Select "Configuring"
> >
> >      -  Specify "reflection" (for measuring paper) and leave 
Spectral
> >toggles unchecked (this exports as LAB values) 
> >
> >      -  Specify your measurement device. I found I had to select 
it
> >even if it already appeared in the dropdown window.
> >
> >-  Select "Measuring"
> >
> >      - Select the chart you printed (QTR 51 Gray) (I think I 
remember
> >that I had to copy QTR-Gray-51.txt from the QTR program files 
folder
> >into C:\Program Files\GretagMacbeth\ProfileMaker Professional
> >5.0.8\Reference Files\Printer)
> >
> >      - Follow the instructions to measure the chart
> >
> >- Select File/SaveAs to save the result as .txt
> >
> >4.  Turn the .txt file into a profile
> >
> >-  Copy the .txt file to QTR\eye-one (WARNING: on Windows Vista I
> >found I had to copy QTR_Create_ICC.exe to a regular directory, one
> >that is not UAC controlled, and put the .txt file in the same 
directory)
> >
> >- Drag/drop the .txt file into QTR_Create_ICC.exe (If no .icc file
> >appears check the –out.txt file (also created by 
QTR_Create_ICC.exe).
> >There may be an explanatory warning message at the bottom.)
> >
> >-  Put the new profile into where your color profiles are kept. On
> >Windows/Vista, that is C:\Windows\System32\spool\drivers\color
> >
> >5.  To use the gray profile to soft proof
> >
> >-  Works just like a color profile
> >
> >-  Rendering intent must be Perceptual
> >
> >-  Do use black point compensation
> >
> >6.  To use the gray profile to print
> >
> >-  Make sure your image is in mode RGB – convert it if necessary
> >
> >-  In Photoshop print dialog
> >
> >      -  Let Photoshop determine colors
> >
> >      -  Select the QTR profile
> >
> >      -  Select "perceptual" rendering intent because QTR only
> >supports perceptual
> >
> >      -  Do check black point compensation
> >
> >-  In the printer driver dialog set the driver to the same 
settings as
> >used to print the QTR 51 Gray chart.
> >
> >Hope this is correct and helpful. Any improvements/suggestions are
> >welcome; eventually this file should be posted to the Web somewhere
> >for others to find (I don't have a Web site).
> >
> >  - susan
> > 
> >
> >
> >------------------------------------
> >
> >Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
resources as
> >they are often being updated.
> >
> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> >If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
wish to
> >unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
this same
> >page.
> >
> >Please follow these basic guidelines:
> >- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages 
to keep
> >them short.
> >- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
flames.
> >Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> >membership without notice.
> >- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of 
digital B&W
> >printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
removed from
> >the membership.
> >- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules 
and
> >guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group 
Owner
> >and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the 
Files
> >section:
> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> >
> >BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
PRINT
> >YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" 
AND
> >"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
LIABLE TO
> >YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
> >EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS 
OF
> >PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF 
THE 
> >"OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE 
BEEN
> >ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) 
THE USE
> >OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
> >UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR 
DATA; (iii)
> >STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
PRINT
> >YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, 
THE
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> >PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Help making BW profiles

2008-05-13 by CDTobie@aol.com

In a message dated 5/12/08 10:41:20 PM, steveabrink@... writes:


> Great info - thanks!  Does it have to be the I1 spectro or can I use
> Print Fix Pro?
> 

You can export measurements from PrintFIX PRO or Spyder3Print for building B&
W profiles as well.

C. David Tobie
WW Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
Datacolor
CDTobie@...
www.datacolor.com/Spyder3


**************
Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? 
Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.
      
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Help making BW profiles

2008-05-13 by CDTobie@aol.com

In a message dated 5/12/08 3:53:16 PM, slchapin@... writes:


> - A spectrophotometer (I think it has to be the I1.)
> 
You can amend this step to include the PrintFIX PRO/Spyder3 Print spectro as 
well... In which case:

3.  Use MeasureTool and your spectrophotometer to read the target

would be amended to read "Use MeasureTool with your EyeOne, or the 'Tool' 
menu 'Measure' function for your DC 1005 to log measurements from your target."

C. David Tobie
WW Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
Datacolor
CDTobie@...
www.datacolor.com/Spyder3



**************
Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family 
favorites at AOL Food.
      
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Help making BW profiles

2008-05-13 by Keith R.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "steveabrink" 
<steveabrink@...> wrote:
>
> Great info - thanks!  Does it have to be the I1 spectro or can I use 
> Print Fix Pro?
> 
> SteveB 
Here's a good link about using PrintFix Pro and QTR:
http://northlight-images.co.uk/article_pages/printfix_pro_for_bw.html

And here is the full page that has alot of info on B&W digital printing 
including info w/PrintFix Pro v2:
http://northlight-images.co.uk/digital_black_white.html

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Help making BW profiles

2008-05-13 by CDTobie@aol.com

In a message dated 5/13/08 10:08:55 AM, kjrslr@... writes:


> Here's a good link about using PrintFix Pro and QTR:
> http://northlight-images.co.uk/article_pages/printfix_pro_for_bw.html
> 
> And here is the full page that has alot of info on B&W digital printing
> including info w/PrintFix Pro v2:
> http://northlight-images.co.uk/digital_black_white.html
> 

North Light Images also has the first detailed review of Spyder3Print v3.5:

http://northlight-images.co.uk/reviews/profiling/spyder3print.html

This review covers the new features from the point of view of an existing 
user.

C. David Tobie
WW Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
Datacolor
CDTobie@...
www.datacolor.com/Spyder3



**************
Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family 
favorites at AOL Food.
      
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Help making BW profiles

2009-06-28 by Keith R.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "slcphoto73" <slchapin@...> wrote:
>
> OK, with a lot of help (see discussion in the EpsonWideFormat group, I
> came up with the following For Dummies summary:

> ....2.  Make the test print
> 
> -  Open QTR\eye-one\Step-51-gray.tif into Photoshop, telling Photoshop
> "don't color manage"
> 
> -  Print it onto the paper for which you are making the profile
> 
>       - In the Photoshop print dialog box, select "no color management"
> 
>       - In the print driver dialog box, specify Advanced Black and
> White with whatever other settings you want to use for this paper.
> Giorgio Trucco recommends "…using the Dark  setting for better linearity."
> 
>       - Let the print dry

I know the original post is over a year old, but I had to drop my search for this for a while. Anyway, in looking back on the topic of creating B&W profiles w/QTR for use with Epsons ABW, I came back to this post and was rereading step #2(above). Maybe it's just me, but I'm having a little trouble following this. It looks like I need to make a print(of the step wedge), then select NCM, then specify ABW?
Is this the correct order or I'm I not reading it right?

Re: Help making BW profiles

2009-06-29 by slcphoto73

Sorry, I wrote the original message. "2. Make the test print" is the topic; the lines below, indented with hyphens, are the steps required to make the test print.

I guess I should have called it "the print to be measured" or something like that.

  - susan

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Keith R." <kjrslr@...> wrote:
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "slcphoto73" <slchapin@> wrote:
> >
> > OK, with a lot of help (see discussion in the EpsonWideFormat group, I
> > came up with the following For Dummies summary:
> 
> > ....2.  Make the test print
> > 
> > -  Open QTR\eye-one\Step-51-gray.tif into Photoshop, telling Photoshop
> > "don't color manage"
> > 
> > -  Print it onto the paper for which you are making the profile
> > 
> >       - In the Photoshop print dialog box, select "no color management"
> > 
> >       - In the print driver dialog box, specify Advanced Black and
> > White with whatever other settings you want to use for this paper.
> > Giorgio Trucco recommends "
using the Dark  setting for better linearity."
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > 
> >       - Let the print dry
> 
> I know the original post is over a year old, but I had to drop my search for this for a while. Anyway, in looking back on the topic of creating B&W profiles w/QTR for use with Epsons ABW, I came back to this post and was rereading step #2(above). Maybe it's just me, but I'm having a little trouble following this. It looks like I need to make a print(of the step wedge), then select NCM, then specify ABW?
> Is this the correct order or I'm I not reading it right?
>

Re: Help making BW profiles

2009-06-29 by scanzzz

> - Open QTR\eye-one\Step-51-gray.tif into Photoshop, telling Photoshop
> "don't color manage"
>
> - Print it onto the paper for which you are making the profile
>
> - In the Photoshop print dialog box, select "no color management"

Just a quick question for confirmation since I too was experimenting with this last night.  "Select "no color management" is not possible for me because the no color management option is grayed out for me in CS4 until I convert the 51 patch file to RGB.  Is this a step that has been left out or am I forgetting something?

Thanks,
Doug

Re: Help making BW profiles

2009-06-29 by Jacob

Susan,
I've posted in my blog detailed step-by-step description how to measure target and how to make adjustments to ABW driver.

http://www.photo3dart.com/wordpress

Hope it helps,

Jacob

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "slcphoto73" <slchapin@...> wrote:
>
> I also posted this to the WideFormat group, but think there may be
> some folks here who don't read that. Sorry if this is a problem for
> anyone.
> 
> I have a 3800 and a spectrophotometer and I make my own color ICC
> profiles using I1 Match3. I would LOVE to make my own BW profiles, but
> I cannot find anywhere a "Making your own BW profiles for dummies"
> explanation. Yes, I have gone to Eric Chan's wonderful site, and I
> have read Giorgio Trucco's explanation. And I have QTR and the Measure
> Tool. But I am confused still, possibly because I am missing something
> about "measuring ink densities" and "linearization" and QTR curves and
> 
.  
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> If anyone knows of a simple, step-by-step description of the procedure
> with explanations for each step intended for people new to making BW
> profiles and therefore not assuming prior knowledge, please pretty
> please with sugar on top let me (and others) know about it.
> 
> Or, if someone is willing to be my tutor-by-email, let me know. Once I
> understand it I will write up the procedure for other newbies.
> 
> Meanwhile, I am using the Epson driver with ABW for BW printing as I
> am getting better results than with QTR out-of-the-box. 
> 
> Oh, and I wish there were a way around the Epson Vista 3800 driver's
> limitation of media types to only the Epson papers. Will making my own
> BW profiles (once I figure out how) for various 3rd party papers make
> this limitation moot?
> 
> Thanks for any and all help,
> 
>    - susan, slchapin@...
>

Re: Help making BW profiles

2009-06-30 by Keith R.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "scanzzz" <dougfisher@...> wrote:
>
> > - Open QTR\eye-one\Step-51-gray.tif into Photoshop, telling Photoshop
> > "don't color manage"
> >
> > - Print it onto the paper for which you are making the profile
> >
> > - In the Photoshop print dialog box, select "no color management"
> 
> Just a quick question for confirmation since I too was experimenting with this last night.  "Select "no color management" is not possible for me because the no color management option is grayed out for me in CS4 until I convert the 51 patch file to RGB.  Is this a step that has been left out or am I forgetting something?
> 
> Thanks,
> Doug
From all that I have read to date on this, the ICC profile is a color managment thing, so when you put a profile in, the driver is expecting an RGB file, so changing it to RGB will highlight "NCM" so you can select it.

Re: Help making BW profiles

2009-06-30 by Tyler Boley

never convert or alter a profile creation chart, it will make the resulting profile invalid. CS4 has created some color management dilemmas, one would hope that Adobe, of all people, would keep the color management processes viable over time.
Anyway, I think your option is to select printer manages color, which will avoid any conversions when printing with qtr. Other drivers, not so sure.
Actually, once you have your profile in use that setting will probably never get used again anyway, you'll let Photoshop mange color and find your profile...
If you are printing on a PC, I believe you will be converting to it in Photoshop and saving before opening the file in qtr to print.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Keith R." <kjrslr@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "scanzzz" <dougfisher@> wrote:
> >
> > > - Open QTR\eye-one\Step-51-gray.tif into Photoshop, telling Photoshop
> > > "don't color manage"
> > >
> > > - Print it onto the paper for which you are making the profile
> > >
> > > - In the Photoshop print dialog box, select "no color management"
> > 
> > Just a quick question for confirmation since I too was experimenting with this last night.  "Select "no color management" is not possible for me because the no color management option is grayed out for me in CS4 until I convert the 51 patch file to RGB.  Is this a step that has been left out or am I forgetting something?
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > Doug
> From all that I have read to date on this, the ICC profile is a color managment thing, so when you put a profile in, the driver is expecting an RGB file, so changing it to RGB will highlight "NCM" so you can select it.
>

Re: Help making BW profiles

2009-07-01 by Keith R.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley" <tyler@...> wrote:
>
> never convert or alter a profile creation chart, it will make the resulting profile invalid. CS4 has created some color management dilemmas, one would hope that Adobe, of all people, would keep the color management processes viable over time.
Thanks for the reply Tyler. Don't know if you've seen this converter from Ernst Dinkla's site:
http://www.pigment-print.com/Quad%20QTR/Index.html

In particular, the Tiffconvert app:
A straight (and odd) converter for Greyscale to RGB and CMYK. Each color channel gets the same values the greyscale had. So no black generation changes in the CMYK file.  Originally used to  print B&W Quad  and Hexatone inksets on a pure CMYK based RIP system. Written by Gert-Jan de Vos.

Seems like just the thing to overcome the CS4 problem.

Re: Help making BW profiles

2009-07-01 by Tyler Boley

yes I remember. Still, you shouldn't have to do that, it's really best to print the chart exactly as the eventual files you are printing with the resulting profile will be printed. 
It may work fine though. The way  we always did it was simply convert to multi channel, duplicate twice so 3 channels, then back to RGB. Used to have to do stuff like that all the time to RGB and CMYK, and just made an action.
None of this should be necessary though, has Roy commented?
Frankly I've just stayed with CS3 until I start hearing more "all clear"s from CS4 users. I'm paranoid...

All you can do is try it.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Keith R." <kjrslr@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley" <tyler@> wrote:
> >
> > never convert or alter a profile creation chart, it will make the resulting profile invalid. CS4 has created some color management dilemmas, one would hope that Adobe, of all people, would keep the color management processes viable over time.
> Thanks for the reply Tyler. Don't know if you've seen this converter from Ernst Dinkla's site:
> http://www.pigment-print.com/Quad%20QTR/Index.html
> 
> In particular, the Tiffconvert app:
> A straight (and odd) converter for Greyscale to RGB and CMYK. Each color channel gets the same values the greyscale had. So no black generation changes in the CMYK file.  Originally used to  print B&W Quad  and Hexatone inksets on a pure CMYK based RIP system. Written by Gert-Jan de Vos.
> 
> Seems like just the thing to overcome the CS4 problem.
>

Re: Help making BW profiles

2009-07-01 by Keith R.

I was just wondering it the "converter" would be a solution since the file is a grayscale and in CS4(in the Print dialog box) the "No Color Management" is grayed out which makes sense since there is no color to manage. In chasing down answers(as to how to work with QTR) they all say to make sure no color management is selected. Since the only way to be able to make that selection, the file needs to be RGB. Since the Epson(I'm using the 4800)driver can select "No color management" meaning PS would handle ColMang and if it's a grayscale file, I guess I should leave it in grayscale and just print the test. And I don't think you're following me around(from the QTR forum) or paranoid.     

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley" <tyler@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> yes I remember. Still, you shouldn't have to do that, it's really best to print the chart exactly as the eventual files you are printing with the resulting profile will be printed. 
> It may work fine though. The way  we always did it was simply convert to multi channel, duplicate twice so 3 channels, then back to RGB. Used to have to do stuff like that all the time to RGB and CMYK, and just made an action.
> None of this should be necessary though, has Roy commented?
> Frankly I've just stayed with CS3 until I start hearing more "all clear"s from CS4 users. I'm paranoid...
> 
> All you can do is try it.
> Tyler
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Keith R." <kjrslr@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley" <tyler@> wrote:
> > >
> > > never convert or alter a profile creation chart, it will make the resulting profile invalid. CS4 has created some color management dilemmas, one would hope that Adobe, of all people, would keep the color management processes viable over time.
> > Thanks for the reply Tyler. Don't know if you've seen this converter from Ernst Dinkla's site:
> > http://www.pigment-print.com/Quad%20QTR/Index.html
> > 
> > In particular, the Tiffconvert app:
> > A straight (and odd) converter for Greyscale to RGB and CMYK. Each color channel gets the same values the greyscale had. So no black generation changes in the CMYK file.  Originally used to  print B&W Quad  and Hexatone inksets on a pure CMYK based RIP system. Written by Gert-Jan de Vos.
> > 
> > Seems like just the thing to overcome the CS4 problem.
> >
>

Re: Help making BW profiles

2009-07-05 by Roy Harrington

The grayscale printing problems from CS4 on OS X 10.5 are on going as far as
I can tell.  My opinion is that is it's a design bug of how the application and
the operating system should interact to handle color management - essentially 
grayscale was not in the plan.   It's hard to tell for sure because there are some
hidden, mostly undocumented things going on.  I submitted a bug report back
in January to Apple and had a good dialogue with them till I think I convinced them
they had a problem.  (btw, CS4, LR, and even Aperture all show this).  Now the
bug is just Open and they say they are looking into it -- "we'll let you know".

So - where does this all leave us?  My first choice is keeping CS3 around
just for printing.  Use CS4 for all the editing and then just think of CS3 as the
separate printing program.  If you only have CS4 there is a workaround that
I've found for now but who knows about future systems.

Here's the way to do it for grayscale:
Assign "Generic Gray Profile" to the stepwedge or target image.
Print with "Photoshop Manages Color" and Print profile of Generic Gray.

Roy

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley" <tyler@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> yes I remember. Still, you shouldn't have to do that, it's really best to print the chart exactly as the eventual files you are printing with the resulting profile will be printed. 
> It may work fine though. The way  we always did it was simply convert to multi channel, duplicate twice so 3 channels, then back to RGB. Used to have to do stuff like that all the time to RGB and CMYK, and just made an action.
> None of this should be necessary though, has Roy commented?
> Frankly I've just stayed with CS3 until I start hearing more "all clear"s from CS4 users. I'm paranoid...
> 
> All you can do is try it.
> Tyler
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Keith R." <kjrslr@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley" <tyler@> wrote:
> > >
> > > never convert or alter a profile creation chart, it will make the resulting profile invalid. CS4 has created some color management dilemmas, one would hope that Adobe, of all people, would keep the color management processes viable over time.
> > Thanks for the reply Tyler. Don't know if you've seen this converter from Ernst Dinkla's site:
> > http://www.pigment-print.com/Quad%20QTR/Index.html
> > 
> > In particular, the Tiffconvert app:
> > A straight (and odd) converter for Greyscale to RGB and CMYK. Each color channel gets the same values the greyscale had. So no black generation changes in the CMYK file.  Originally used to  print B&W Quad  and Hexatone inksets on a pure CMYK based RIP system. Written by Gert-Jan de Vos.
> > 
> > Seems like just the thing to overcome the CS4 problem.
> >
>

Re: Help making BW profiles

2009-07-06 by scanzzz

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Roy Harrington" <roy@...> wrote:
>
> The grayscale printing problems from CS4 on OS X 10.5 are on going as far as
> I can tell.

Is this also an issue for Windows and CS4 or just the Mac?

Thanks,
Doug

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Help making BW profiles

2009-07-06 by C D Tobie

On Jul 6, 2009, at 12:12 PM, scanzzz wrote:

> Is this also an issue for Windows and CS4 or just the Mac?

This is a situation where attempts to improve the workflow for  
ColorSync color management on the Mac have caused widespread color  
management problems with Adobe applications and other color managed  
applications, with many printer drivers. The grayscale issue is just  
one aspect of it. It also shows its head when you attempt to choose a  
custom profile with a range of printer drivers from Photoshop CS4,  
Lightroom2, or other apps. An unrequested conversion is triggered by  
OS 10.5, that trashes your color. Everybody blames someone else; but  
the irony is that earlier combinations worked, and now they don't. We  
can't get every printer company to rewrite every driver, so claiming  
that the drivers should be updated to  "fix" it is not practical. On  
the other hand, Adobe claims they have done what Apple told them to do  
to update their apps. But the result is that printing to some printer  
drivers from CS4 requires converting the image to the output profile  
in Photoshop, then assigning GenericRGB (in the case of RGB images,  
that is), so that the problem conversion is null. Thats a lot to ask  
of users, and is not even possible from other apps, only from full  
Photoshop.

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
CDTobie@...


  ----------


Datacolor
www.datacolor.com/Spyder3



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Help making BW profiles

2009-07-07 by Bob Frost

This can't possibly be true, because 'Macs just work'.     ;)

Sorry, I couldn't resist that temptation.

Bob Frost.

--------------------------------------------------
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "C D Tobie" <CDTobie@...>

> This is a situation where attempts to improve the workflow for  
> ColorSync color management on the Mac have caused widespread color  
> management problems with Adobe applications and other color managed  
> applications, with many printer drivers. The grayscale issue is just  
> one aspect of it. It also shows its head when you attempt to choose a  
> custom profile with a range of printer drivers from Photoshop CS4,  
> Lightroom2, or other apps. An unrequested conversion is triggered by  
> OS 10.5, that trashes your color. Everybody blames someone else; but  
> the irony is that earlier combinations worked, and now they don't. We  
> can't get every printer company to rewrite every driver, so claiming  
> that the drivers should be updated to  "fix" it is not practical. On  
> the other hand, Adobe claims they have done what Apple told them to do  
> to update their apps. But the result is that printing to some printer  
> drivers from CS4 requires converting the image to the output profile  
> in Photoshop, then assigning GenericRGB (in the case of RGB images,  
> that is), so that the problem conversion is null. Thats a lot to ask  
> of users, and is not even possible from other apps, only from full  
> Photoshop.

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Help making BW profiles

2009-07-07 by C D Tobie

On Jul 7, 2009, at 2:46 PM, Bob Frost wrote:

> This can't possibly be true, because 'Macs just work'.     ;)

Thats why we're all so indignant about it; Microsoft couldn't have  
done a better job of messing things up!

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
CDTobie@...


  ----------


Datacolor
www.datacolor.com/Spyder3



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Digital BW] Re: Help making BW profiles

2009-07-08 by Greg

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, C D Tobie <CDTobie@...> wrote:
>
> 
> On Jul 7, 2009, at 2:46 PM, Bob Frost wrote:
> 
> > This can't possibly be true, because 'Macs just work'.     ;)
> 
> Thats why we're all so indignant about it; Microsoft couldn't have  
> done a better job of messing things up!
> 

Unfortunately both of them seem to be really good at "improving" things so far that nothing works anymore. Apple just seems to make it a yearly offense with the minor updates and new prettier clothing. Win7 has messed up a bunch of stuff that almost worked in Vista.

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