Digital BW, The Print

Hi all

As I would have expected this to be a repeating question I searched the 
group archive but only found this 2-years old thread:

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/message/
72177

I'm looking for a fine art quality b&w bookprinting service. There are 
so many color print services around, but the ones I've tried, seen and 
heard of, all seem to deliver poor B&W quality: lack of resolution and 
color cast. Hasn't there been any progress in the last two years?

Thanks,

Joost

i haven't used this service but i've read somewhere that this might be 
a good one to try out.  it's a bit pricier than some of the others.  i 
don't know what their quality for b&w is like.  please report back on 
your experience should you decide to try it out.  thanks.

http://www.siphotographer.com/

Thanks for the pointer,

I checked their website. Their claim to deliver "Finest 4-color prints" 
does not give me much confidence but I mailed them and asked some 
fairly straight questions about their B&W performance. I'll await their 
response and will keep you posted.

Joost


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "c1asia" 
<c1asia@...> wrote:
>
> i haven't used this service but i've read somewhere that this might 
be 
> a good one to try out.  it's a bit pricier than some of the others.  
i 

> don't know what their quality for b&w is like.  please report back on 
> your experience should you decide to try it out.  thanks.
> 
> http://www.siphotographer.com/
>

I know nothing about this vendor or about commercial printing of 
photographic books, but I know a little about general commercial printing. 
In that area, "4-color" means "full color" as opposed to only one or two 
tints other than black and gray. A 4-color press is definitely _not_ what we 
inkjet users think of as 4 color inkjet printers.
So their claim to make "finest 4-color prints" may simply mean that their 
machines produce full spectrum images. You would have to see samples to 
evaluate the quality.
Bert

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Joost Horsten" <j.h.j.h@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 12:21 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Black & White Fine art book printing service?


Thanks for the pointer,

I checked their website. Their claim to deliver "Finest 4-color prints"
does not give me much confidence but I mailed them and asked some
fairly straight questions about their B&W performance. I'll await their
response and will keep you posted.

Joost


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "c1asia"
<c1asia@...> wrote:
>
> i haven't used this service but i've read somewhere that this might
be
> a good one to try out.  it's a bit pricier than some of the others.
i
> don't know what their quality for b&w is like.  please report back on
> your experience should you decide to try it out.  thanks.
>
> http://www.siphotographer.com/
>



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I'm told most of those online print on demand book printers use Indigo
presses. Apparently they are very hard to keep calibrated over even
short periods of time. This may not be much of a problem for economy
color printing, but a wandering CMYK printing process is going to have
a lot of trouble making neutral or just off neutral, or keeping it in
control when they do.
Complaints of green or magenta B&W from book to book have been common.
Doesn't mean it's impossible, just means you generally get what you
pay for...

Tyler

I have tried the BLURB process on a number of occaisions....For color they
are great, econical and pretty good.  For b/w it is hit or miss relative to
the Magenta Cast that Tyler is referring to.   And I do believe that they
use and Indigo Press.
 
Paul

-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tyler
Boley
Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 2:11 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Black & White Fine art book printing service?



I'm told most of those online print on demand book printers use Indigo
presses. Apparently they are very hard to keep calibrated over even
short periods of time. This may not be much of a problem for economy
color printing, but a wandering CMYK printing process is going to have
a lot of trouble making neutral or just off neutral, or keeping it in
control when they do.
Complaints of green or magenta B&W from book to book have been common.
Doesn't mean it's impossible, just means you generally get what you
pay for...

Tyler



 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I looked into Shared ink awhile ago and called their "customer service" 
which turned out to be simply the owner. He outsources all the books to 
an Indigo just like all the others, but claims to have better control 
over the binding process which he felt set his service apart from the 
rest. But the printing process is ni different than the rest.

http://www.ScottJonesPhoto.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "c1asia" 
<c1asia@...> wrote:
>
> i haven't used this service but i've read somewhere that this might 
be 
> a good one to try out.  it's a bit pricier than some of the others.  
i 

> don't know what their quality for b&w is like.  please report back on 
> your experience should you decide to try it out.  thanks.
> 
> http://www.siphotographer.com/
>

it is my understanding that really "fine art" black and white photo 
books are printed using duo, tri or quad-tone printing.  a very 
demanding process involving limited inksets.  here is a link to a 
description from graphics.com:

http://tinyurl.com/4gg63r

but as with anything else, you need to find someone who knows how to do 
it correctly, ie. quality control, or it is prone to the same 
headaches.  in this age of digital printers and gang printed cymk, it 
will probably be more expensive and harder to find.

let us know how it turns out.
good luck,
phil

If you want to produce a great black and white book you need to hook
up with Brooks Jensen the "Lenswork" publisher.
Lenswork for me is the b&w book benchmark.

Mike

2008/5/16 schneidlyho <coldframedigital@...>:

> it is my understanding that really "fine art" black and white photo
> books are printed using duo, tri or quad-tone printing. a very
> demanding process involving limited inksets. here is a link to a
> description from graphics.com:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/4gg63r
>
> but as with anything else, you need to find someone who knows how to do
> it correctly, ie. quality control, or it is prone to the same
> headaches. in this age of digital printers and gang printed cymk, it
> will probably be more expensive and harder to find.
>
> let us know how it turns out.
> good luck,
> phil
>
>

Has anyone looked into the process that Brooks Jensen uses for Lenswork. 
Maybe that press might be willing to do print on demand or short runs.

Sean

You might be able to find many printers who can do a great job but it  
will cost more (big surprise). To keep the cost down, see if a book  
can be "ganged" up with another project the printer has going. You  
might have to wait until opportunity is available but...


Mark
http://www.stillrivereditions.com

On May 16, 2008, at 4:19 PM, sean@... wrote:

> Has anyone looked into the process that Brooks Jensen uses for  
> Lenswork.
> Maybe that press might be willing to do print on demand or short runs.
>
> Sean
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'm a bit of a lurker, but this thread has recently interested me. So I 
decided to join and participate. Hello everyone!

Sean, Lenswork magazine is printed at Hemlock in Vancouver, Canada. 
They're an offset printer that is very, very expensive. They're good, 
but not cost effecient. As a photographer who is also seeking out to do 
a book of my own photography, I've been seeking my own book for the 
past couple of months. I've received quotes from Hemlock, Double 
Graphics, Meridian... even Stinehour. I finally decided I was going to 
go with Stinehour, but then they closed last month... 

I was on my way home from a bookstore two weeks ago and I picked up a 
copy of Focus Magazine (www.focusmag.info) and WOW was I impressed. 
Great quality, excellent articles, fantastic reproduction. As I was 
looking through this magazine, I found that they were offering 
photographers a service to help them streamline the process of getting 
their photography book published. I called them up and it seems that 
this is a brand new publishing company that's really hungry for their 
first book. They quoted me $20/book for a softcover 9 x 12, 96 page 
book in quadtone and I just received a sample of their work that their 
printer does... AMAZING.

In addition to printing my book, they're offering me a full year of 
advertising inside of their magazine, plus they'll market my book to 
distributors and to bookstores.

Not only are they the least expensive option, but the best quality and 
they offer marketing and advertising as part of the package that's 
$20/book!

Anyway.. you guys should check it out. www.focuspublishing.net

Hi, txs for the info. How big was the print run going to be to get $20 per book?

2008/5/16 kalebtreuman <kalebtreuman@...>:

> I'm a bit of a lurker, but this thread has recently interested me. So I
> decided to join and participate. Hello everyone!
>
> Sean, Lenswork magazine is printed at Hemlock in Vancouver, Canada.
> They're an offset printer that is very, very expensive. They're good,
> but not cost effecient. As a photographer who is also seeking out to do
> a book of my own photography, I've been seeking my own book for the
> past couple of months. I've received quotes from Hemlock, Double
> Graphics, Meridian... even Stinehour. I finally decided I was going to
> go with Stinehour, but then they closed last month...
>
> I was on my way home from a bookstore two weeks ago and I picked up a
> copy of Focus Magazine (www.focusmag.info) and WOW was I impressed.
> Great quality, excellent articles, fantastic reproduction. As I was
> looking through this magazine, I found that they were offering
> photographers a service to help them streamline the process of getting
> their photography book published. I called them up and it seems that
> this is a brand new publishing company that's really hungry for their
> first book. They quoted me $20/book for a softcover 9 x 12, 96 page
> book in quadtone and I just received a sample of their work that their
> printer does... AMAZING.
>
> In addition to printing my book, they're offering me a full year of
> advertising inside of their magazine, plus they'll market my book to
> distributors and to bookstores.
>
> Not only are they the least expensive option, but the best quality and
> they offer marketing and advertising as part of the package that's
> $20/book!
>
> Anyway.. you guys should check it out. www.focuspublishing.net
>
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Michael King" 
<drmrking@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, txs for the info. How big was the print run going to be to get 
$20 per book?
>

1000 copies.

Tread carefully when dealing with Focus, many have been burned and  
promised the world. Check out the ASMP or PDN forums.

Mark
http://www.stillrivereditions.com

On May 16, 2008, at 4:42 PM, kalebtreuman wrote:
>
>
> In addition to printing my book, they're offering me a full year of
> advertising inside of their magazine, plus they'll market my book to
> distributors and to bookstores.

Really? I read all over the PDN forum and couldn't find anything on 
focus magazine. I appreciate your comments, but I know what I've been 
promised and I have it in writing. I also contacted a couple of 
advertisers from there, who each said they enjoyed dealing with Focus 
Magazine so far. I think those people would know best and not the 
people on the internet who love to spread heresay.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Mark Savoia 
<mark@...> wrote:

>
> Tread carefully when dealing with Focus, many have been burned and  
> promised the world. Check out the ASMP or PDN forums.
> 
> Mark
> http://www.stillrivereditions.com
> 
> On May 16, 2008, at 4:42 PM, kalebtreuman wrote:
> >
> >
> > In addition to printing my book, they're offering me a full year of
> > advertising inside of their magazine, plus they'll market my book to
> > distributors and to bookstores.
>

Offline someone also pointed me to focuspublishing and I was about 
the contact them. Great to hear you're so satisfied with their 
quality. And that price is good too. What quantity are you talking 
about?

Joost


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "kalebtreuman" 
<kalebtreuman@...> wrote:
>
> I'm a bit of a lurker, but this thread has recently interested me. 
So I 
> decided to join and participate. Hello everyone!
> 
> Sean, Lenswork magazine is printed at Hemlock in Vancouver, Canada. 
> They're an offset printer that is very, very expensive. They're 
good, 
> but not cost effecient. As a photographer who is also seeking out 
to do 
> a book of my own photography, I've been seeking my own book for the 
> past couple of months. I've received quotes from Hemlock, Double 
> Graphics, Meridian... even Stinehour. I finally decided I was going 
to 
> go with Stinehour, but then they closed last month... 
> 
> I was on my way home from a bookstore two weeks ago and I picked up 
a 
> copy of Focus Magazine (www.focusmag.info) and WOW was I impressed. 
> Great quality, excellent articles, fantastic reproduction. As I was 
> looking through this magazine, I found that they were offering 
> photographers a service to help them streamline the process of 
getting 
> their photography book published. I called them up and it seems 
that 
> this is a brand new publishing company that's really hungry for 
their 
> first book. They quoted me $20/book for a softcover 9 x 12, 96 page 
> book in quadtone and I just received a sample of their work that 
their 
> printer does... AMAZING.
> 
> In addition to printing my book, they're offering me a full year of 
> advertising inside of their magazine, plus they'll market my book 
to 
> distributors and to bookstores.
> 
> Not only are they the least expensive option, but the best quality 
and 

> they offer marketing and advertising as part of the package that's 
> $20/book!
> 
> Anyway.. you guys should check it out. www.focuspublishing.net
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Joost Horsten" 
<j.h.j.h@...> wrote:
>
> Offline someone also pointed me to focuspublishing and I was about 
> the contact them. Great to hear you're so satisfied with their 
> quality. And that price is good too. What quantity are you talking 
> about?
> 
> Joost

Sorry, you answered that question later in the thread. Hmmmm, 1000 
copies a $20 is a $20.000 investment. That's rather ambitious for me. I 
was hoping to find a micro-publishing service, but that does not seem 
to exist (yet?).

Joost

> Sorry, you answered that question later in the thread. Hmmmm, 1000 
> copies a $20 is a $20.000 investment. That's rather ambitious for me. 
I 
> was hoping to find a micro-publishing service, but that does not seem 
> to exist (yet?).
> 
> Joost
>

Micro publishers exist online, blurb, lulu, sharedink, etc. Their 
quality is terrible. Unfortunately, low prices and high quality do not 
exist together. 

I have no idea what your project would cost... but i do know that the 
cost between 500 and 1000 is marginal. The printer's charge comes from 
the setup, not the number of copies. But then again, I'm using quadtone 
printing and high end paper. You might save some money by going 
duotone, though i have no idea how much.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "kalebtreuman" 
<kalebtreuman@...> wrote:

> 
> I have no idea what your project would cost... but i do know that the 
> cost between 500 and 1000 is marginal. The printer's charge comes 
from 
> the setup, not the number of copies. But then again, I'm using 
quadtone 
> printing and high end paper. You might save some money by going 
> duotone, though i have no idea how much.
>

Thanks. Apparently, there's still no good b&w micro-publishing service 
(could be great niche though, convert one of those Indigos into a quad 
B&W press.........)

I contacted Focus to learn more on their offering.

Joost

Joost

I have refrained from posting in this thread so far, however I suggest you
contact Eddie Ephraums at Self Publish Solutions
(info@selfpublishsolutions.com).  As you probably know Eddie has written and
published several books on B&W darkroom processes as well as more recently
Darkroom to Digital.  He is also a commissioning editor for one of the
publishers (Argentum?).  His latest venture is self publishing.  He is very
helpful and would, I'm sure be able to advise on a good printing service for
you.  I know several people who have used his service to publish their own
books, albeit in colour, not B&W, and all have been very happy - I'm not
sure of the costs however.

David

  -----Original Message-----
  From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Joost
Horsten
  Sent: 17 May 2008 06:55
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Black & White Fine art book printing service?


  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "kalebtreuman"
  <kalebtreuman@...> wrote:

  >
  > I have no idea what your project would cost... but i do know that the
  > cost between 500 and 1000 is marginal. The printer's charge comes
  from
  > the setup, not the number of copies. But then again, I'm using
  quadtone
  > printing and high end paper. You might save some money by going
  > duotone, though i have no idea how much.
  >

  Thanks. Apparently, there's still no good b&w micro-publishing service
  (could be great niche though, convert one of those Indigos into a quad
  B&W press.........)

  I contacted Focus to learn more on their offering.

  Joost



  


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The following link is to the Musings on Photography blog where the blogger just went through an extensive process of investigating photo books and having one printed. It goes on for many weeks so you'll have to go back in time to follow along with all of it. That may not be necessary, however, since he has come up with some preliminary conclusions that might suffice.
   
  http://photomusings.wordpress.com/
   
  "Overall, I’m pleased. The reward of getting that “Wow. It’s a book!” moment far outweighs the defects in the physical book (largely a matter of expectation management) and is plenty rich enough to make it worth going thru the headbanging to get a book printed. I really can’t overstate the head rush I got from opening up that package and taking out the book that read “A Good Walk/Paul Butzi” on the front cover. "


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I've been following this thread with interest because I have produced  
a half dozen or so different books over the last year for some of my  
clients, and am continually getting requests for limited editions  
books. In most instances they require from one to five copies with  
page counts of 24-48 pages.

I have tried several binding systems, the Hahnemuhle, the Moab Chinle  
12 x 12, and the Unibind systems. I print using Epson 78/9800s with  
the K3 inks. All the books so far have been color. The papers used  
are Kayenta, Museo II, Hahnemuhle PR Duo, and I  just recently added   
Inkjet Art's ceramic micro-porous double sided.

I'm currently working on two 44 pg volumes, with four copies per  
volume, printed on the micro-porous luster. The images are stunning  
on this paper. It's like looking at a bound collection of  
photographs. I've seen the Indigo books, in fact at my day job I work  
prepress for a commercial printer that has one. There is no  
comparison in quality. That being said, these books will bill out at  
approximately $225 each, so the quality cos$t$. Lots of handwork.

 From this thread I cannot get a feel for what folks feel is  
reasonable for limited edition books. What run lengths are we talking  
about? I would speculate if you are looking for 500-1000 books in 40+  
pages then offset lithography is feasible. I would suggest finding a  
printer that can print 10-20 micron stochastic screening(Hemlock  
comes to mind), and for black and white reproductions print tritones  
or quadtones. It's amazing what can be done by pushing a little  
metallic ink, bronze, gold, or silver down on one of the plates. I'm  
not aware of a technique that will give you the metallic on an  
inkjet. Also, with offset lithography, there's also the ability to  
creatively use varnishes and tint varnishes.

Clark
Cracked Melon Editions, LLC


On May 17, 2008, at 2:05 AM, David Whistance wrote:

> Joost
>
> I have refrained from posting in this thread so far, however I  
> suggest you
> contact Eddie Ephraums at Self Publish Solutions
> (info@selfpublishsolutions.com). As you probably know Eddie has  
> written and
> published several books on B&W darkroom processes as well as more  
> recently
> Darkroom to Digital. He is also a commissioning editor for one of the
> publishers (Argentum?). His latest venture is self publishing. He  
> is very
> helpful and would, I'm sure be able to advise on a good printing  
> service for
> you. I know several people who have used his service to publish  
> their own
> books, albeit in colour, not B&W, and all have been very happy -  
> I'm not
> sure of the costs however.
>
> David
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of  
> Joost
> Horsten
> Sent: 17 May 2008 06:55
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Black & White Fine art book printing  
> service?
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "kalebtreuman"
> <kalebtreuman@...> wrote:
>
> >
> > I have no idea what your project would cost... but i do know that  
> the
> > cost between 500 and 1000 is marginal. The printer's charge comes
> from
> > the setup, not the number of copies. But then again, I'm using
> quadtone
> > printing and high end paper. You might save some money by going
> > duotone, though i have no idea how much.
> >
>
> Thanks. Apparently, there's still no good b&w micro-publishing service
> (could be great niche though, convert one of those Indigos into a quad
> B&W press.........)
>
> I contacted Focus to learn more on their offering.
>
> Joost
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I second the warning about dealing with Focus Magazine. Emails are 
NEVER answered. Telephone calls go to an answering machine and are 
NEVER returned. Individual issues for subscribers are often not 
delivered and appear to be unobtainable. Many in my locale are 
considering a postal service fraud complaint. Also a gallery owner in 
Santa Fe told me that their dealings with the owner were toally 
untrustworthy. Very low integrity operation.

Very disappointing since the magazine seems to be of high quality.

I can't comment either way.  

But the "owner" posts quite a bit at the Large Format Photograhy forum. 
Here is a thread where he first posted about the book publishing offer:

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?
t=34141&highlight=focus+magazine

Sounds like he is just getting started. Posting is from March 11.

Good luck!

Best,
Michael

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Jones" 
<peanutdogs@...> wrote:
>
> I second the warning about dealing with Focus Magazine. Emails are 
> NEVER answered. Telephone calls go to an answering machine and are 
> NEVER returned. Individual issues for subscribers are often not 
> delivered and appear to be unobtainable. Many in my locale are 
> considering a postal service fraud complaint. Also a gallery owner in 
> Santa Fe told me that their dealings with the owner were toally 
> untrustworthy. Very low integrity operation.
> 
> Very disappointing since the magazine seems to be of high quality.
>

Where are you from? Does the owner know about your problem? How many 
is "many?"

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Joost Horsten" 
> (could be great niche though, convert one of those Indigos into a quad 
> B&W press.........)
> 


Yes it would be a good niche, but you would need to convice HP to
produce the lighter inks and have to buy the better RIP.

Light gray laser toner might also be a good alternative for really
short run books, maybe like the EZ inkset for the 4 color epson printers.

Blurb now has a beta program for professional photographers that more
closely resembles a lab ... Colour correction etc. You might look into that.
-- 
Lida
http://www.candlelightdreams.com
http://www.pbase.com/coffenut

What do you despise? By this are you truly known. ~ Frank Herbert, Dune,
Manual of MuadDib by Princess Irulan

From: Paul Grant <gphoto2@...>
Reply-To: List - B&W Print <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 15:42:23 -0700
To: List - B&W Print <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: Black & White Fine art book printing service?

 
 

I have tried the BLURB process on a number of occaisions....For color they
are great, econical and pretty good.  For b/w it is hit or miss relative to
the Magenta Cast that Tyler is referring to.   And I do believe that they
use and Indigo Press.
 
Paul

-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Tyler
Boley
Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 2:11 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Black & White Fine art book printing service?

I'm told most of those online print on demand book printers use Indigo
presses. Apparently they are very hard to keep calibrated over even
short periods of time. This may not be much of a problem for economy
color printing, but a wandering CMYK printing process is going to have
a lot of trouble making neutral or just off neutral, or keeping it in
control when they do.
Complaints of green or magenta B&W from book to book have been common.
Doesn't mean it's impossible, just means you generally get what you
pay for...

Tyler

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

 
    



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Where did you find that info on their web site please?

Mark
http://www.stillrivereditions.com

On May 18, 2008, at 8:53 AM, Lida Verner wrote:

> Blurb now has a beta program for professional photographers that more
> closely resembles a lab ... Colour correction etc. You might look  
> into that.
> -- 
> Lida

Look for the B3 references in the FAQs ....

http://tinyurl.com/5etqka

-- 
Lida 
http://www.candlelightdreams.com
http://www.pbase.com/coffenut

I was nauseous and tingly all over. I was either in love or I had smallpox.
~ Woody Allen

From: Mark Savoia <mark@...>
Reply-To: List - B&W Print <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 13:08:20 -0400
To: List - B&W Print <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Black & White Fine art book printing service?

 
 

Where did you find that info on their web site please?

Mark
http://www.stillrivereditions.com

On May 18, 2008, at 8:53 AM, Lida Verner wrote:

> Blurb now has a beta program for professional photographers that more
> closely resembles a lab ... Colour correction etc. You might look
> into that.
> -- 
> Lida

 
    



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Clark 
<bildad@...> wrote:
>  From this thread I cannot get a feel for what folks feel is  
> reasonable for limited edition books. What run lengths are we 
talking  
> about? 


Hi Steve,

Of course I can't talk for the others, but (after digesting the 
comments made) these are my thoughts/hopes. I would really want a 
printing options that would allow "bookstore selling prices", so let's 
say 50$ in very small quantities (10), while accepting that no margin 
is made whatsoever at these prices.

That would mean a price in the range of Blurb, but with a B&W quality 
that is cleary higher. On the other hand the quality may be clearly 
less than fine art inkjet. Some cost premium over Blurb is of course 
acceptabel, as this will be more of a niche market.

It looks like:
1) Blurb-like solutions can do one-offs, hit the price but don't offer 
the quality
2) Quad-tone offset, hits the quality and price, but only for 500-1000+ 
series
3) Fine art inkjet can do one-offs, gives great quality but is (way) 
too expensive  

So my conclusion (at least for now) is: there's nothing (yet?) in the 
sweet spot. No enterpreneur out there to convert an Indigo to quad-tone 
printing? I'm your first customer!

Joost

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Joost Horsten" 


> 3) Fine art inkjet can do one-offs, gives great quality but is (way) 
> too expensive  
> 
> So my conclusion (at least for now) is: there's nothing (yet?) in the 
> sweet spot. No enterpreneur out there to convert an Indigo to quad-tone 
> printing? I'm your first customer!
> 
> Joost
>

The problem with inkjet is the lack of paper that is similar enough to
traditional book papers. None of the inkjet papers that I ever found
were thin enough to make a good book, let alone only single sided. I
had a couple that were close but not really what is needed. Had I
found that mystical missing paper I might have tried doing something
about the lack of short run B/W book printing.

And to get the indigo to print quads would require HP to make the ink
and modify the RIP.  Not sure they will invest the R&D to do this as
the return would be small. Now you might still be able to find one of
the digital Heidelberg presses around that would allow them use
traditional press inks to achieve the look (hopefully). I'm not sure
what the minimum dot size is for those Heidelberg presses, so it might
be worth looking into.

I did a little more looking into laser printers, and found that the
resolution seems to be limited by the process. I'm not sure if the
limitation lies with the toner or the transfer roller. The proof of
this was in a medical grade laser printer that uses film for the
output. Konica has several printers that can do down to 25 micro dots
and 16xxx+ shades of gray (14 bit I think?). They are probably
woefully expensive but it would be great for people printing digital
negatives.

In that digging I did not find a single mention of monochrome toners
lighter than black except for a few dye-sub heat transfer toners that
could do white toner after transfer. I didn't find any truly high
resolution B/W laser printers that could get by with really small dots
and stochastic screening. And I'm not totally convinced that dry toner
is a good answer, I guess that depends on how well the paper holds
onto the toner after the heat fusing.

What might be ideal is a UV cured liquid ink that can be charge so
that it can work in the electrophotographic process. That way you can
avoid the heat fusing that almost requires special papers and low
solvents to meet many new standards. It would be permanent, and you
can get pigments from black to white and just about everything in
between from Dupont. So far all the UV cure printers are terribly
expensive and not really set up for sheet fed styles of printing
(yet). Too bad there are no inkjet UV cure printers in the Epson price
ranges, and too bad the ink would destroy the standard printheads (so
I'm told).

>I would suggest finding a printer that can print 10-20 micron 
stochastic screening(Hemlock comes to mind), and for black and white 
reproductions print tritones or quadtones. It's amazing what can be 
done by pushing a little metallic ink, bronze, gold, or silver down 
on one of the plates.<

I forwarded this to Focus Publishing. Here is his response:

"Straight Stochastic screening can yield interesting results in 
certain cases (bright, bold scenes) but not in others (subtle tones, 
flesh, etc).  It is also still an unstable screening due to the vast 
number of variables that can make a stochastic job great...or not so 
great. Brilliant Graphics' screening is a hybrid screen that utilizes 
a 300 line conventional screening over the broadest range of the 
scale.  However, where conventional screening can fall off the scale 
(upper hilights and lower shadows) BG's screening turns into 
stochastic – thus the name "Hybrid Screening."  This screening is an 
exclusive Heidelberg technology developed by Dr. Hell – the 
grandfather of scanning/digital screening. Focus Publishing not only 
offers you a higher quality printing than Hemlock and Dual Graphics, 
some of the few printers in the US that offer this printing service, 
but we do it for nearly half the price."

I have the chance to buy an Epson 9600.  It's within driving range, and 
I have a van.  I do have a copy of the manual, and I'd print off a 
status page, one that tells how much ink has been run through, what 
might need maintenance soon...  Besides that, is there anything I should 
look for?  Are the after market funnel fill cartridges reliable? I'd 
probably eventually use one of Paul's bw inksets.  Any advice welcome.  
Btw., the seller is asking $1900.  Is that a good price?

-Peter

I remember these as being right at $3k when they first came out.  I  
could be wrong.  Later I think they were available for a few hundred  
less than that.  So if you use the general rule of thumb that  
something used should be priced at about 60%, top dollar would be  
$1800.  So I'd say that $1900 is high, especially given that you have  
to go pick it up, and given that it's likely not in mint, virtually  
unused shape.

Where are you located?  I've got a 9500 I'm selling for $1,000.  :   )

James



On May 20, 2008, at 9:05 AM, Peter De Smidt wrote:

> I have the chance to buy an Epson 9600. It's within driving range, and
> I have a van. I do have a copy of the manual, and I'd print off a
> status page, one that tells how much ink has been run through, what
> might need maintenance soon... Besides that, is there anything I  
> should
> look for? Are the after market funnel fill cartridges reliable? I'd
> probably eventually use one of Paul's bw inksets. Any advice welcome.
> Btw., the seller is asking $1900. Is that a good price?
>
> -Peter
>
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "kalebtreuman" 


> I forwarded this to Focus Publishing. Here is his response:
> 
> "Straight Stochastic screening can yield interesting results in 
> certain cases (bright, bold scenes) but not in others (subtle 
tones, 
> flesh, etc).  It is also still an unstable screening due to the 
vast 
> number of variables that can make a stochastic job great...or not 
so 
> great. Brilliant Graphics' screening is a hybrid screen that 
utilizes 
> a 300 line conventional screening over the broadest range of the 
> scale.  However, where conventional screening can fall off the 
scale 
> (upper hilights and lower shadows) BG's screening turns into 
> stochastic – thus the name "Hybrid Screening."  This screening is 
an 
> exclusive Heidelberg technology developed by Dr. Hell – the 
> grandfather of scanning/digital screening. Focus Publishing not 
only 
> offers you a higher quality printing than Hemlock and Dual 
Graphics, 
> some of the few printers in the US that offer this printing 
service, 
> but we do it for nearly half the price."
>

If they run it properly and have the complete Heidelberg workflow, it 
should be a very nice print. Though looking through 
focuspublishing.net and lodimapress.com I find nothing about owning 
or using a Heidelberg press. Might be worth contacting Heidelberg to 
find out who is using one of their digital presses. Might find one 
close to home that you can use.

Uh, Brilliant Graphics owns the Heidelberg.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Greg" 
<dfaprinting@...> wrote:
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "kalebtreuman" 
> 
> 
> > I forwarded this to Focus Publishing. Here is his response:
> > 
> > "Straight Stochastic screening can yield interesting results in 
> > certain cases (bright, bold scenes) but not in others (subtle 
> tones, 
> > flesh, etc).  It is also still an unstable screening due to the 
> vast 
> > number of variables that can make a stochastic job great...or not 
> so 
> > great. Brilliant Graphics' screening is a hybrid screen that 
> utilizes 
> > a 300 line conventional screening over the broadest range of the 
> > scale.  However, where conventional screening can fall off the 
> scale 
> > (upper hilights and lower shadows) BG's screening turns into 
> > stochastic – thus the name "Hybrid Screening."  This screening is 
> an 
> > exclusive Heidelberg technology developed by Dr. Hell – the 
> > grandfather of scanning/digital screening. Focus Publishing not 
> only 
> > offers you a higher quality printing than Hemlock and Dual 
> Graphics, 
> > some of the few printers in the US that offer this printing 
> service, 
> > but we do it for nearly half the price."
> >
> 
> If they run it properly and have the complete Heidelberg workflow, 
it 
> should be a very nice print. Though looking through 
> focuspublishing.net and lodimapress.com I find nothing about owning 
> or using a Heidelberg press. Might be worth contacting Heidelberg 
to 

> find out who is using one of their digital presses. Might find one 
> close to home that you can use.
>

don't forget how much ink is in it as well.
a full set of inks for this beast (and it is huge) is pretty pricey.
So I would see how much ink is in it, then negotiate the price down from there.

----- Original Message ----
From: James Irelan <james@...>
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 7:22:48 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] OT Epson 9600

I remember these as being right at $3k when they first came out.  I  
could be wrong.  Later I think they were available for a few hundred  
less than that.  So if you use the general rule of thumb that  
something used should be priced at about 60%, top dollar would be  
$1800.  So I'd say that $1900 is high, especially given that you have  
to go pick it up, and given that it's likely not in mint, virtually  
unused shape.

Where are you located?  I've got a 9500 I'm selling for $1,000.  :  )

James



On May 20, 2008, at 9:05 AM, Peter De Smidt wrote:

> I have the chance to buy an Epson 9600. It's within driving range, and
> I have a van. I do have a copy of the manual, and I'd print off a
> status page, one that tells how much ink has been run through, what
> might need maintenance soon... Besides that, is there anything I  
> should
> look for? Are the after market funnel fill cartridges reliable? I'd
> probably eventually use one of Paul's bw inksets. Any advice welcome.
> Btw., the seller is asking $1900. Is that a good price?
>
> -Peter
>
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


------------------------------------

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Check the dates on them too.

Mark
http://www.stillrivereditions.com

On May 20, 2008, at 10:41 AM, Brentley Beerline wrote:

> don't forget how much ink is in it as well.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The 9600 was $5,000 new.
   
  Tom Baker
  

James Irelan <james@redweather.com> wrote:
  I remember these as being right at $3k when they first came out. I 
could be wrong. Later I think they were available for a few hundred 
less than that. So if you use the general rule of thumb that 
something used should be priced at about 60%, top dollar would be 
$1800. So I'd say that $1900 is high, especially given that you have 
to go pick it up, and given that it's likely not in mint, virtually 
unused shape.

Where are you located? I've got a 9500 I'm selling for $1,000. : )

James



On May 20, 2008, at 9:05 AM, Peter De Smidt wrote:

> I have the chance to buy an Epson 9600. It's within driving range, and
> I have a van. I do have a copy of the manual, and I'd print off a
> status page, one that tells how much ink has been run through, what
> might need maintenance soon... Besides that, is there anything I 
> should
> look for? Are the after market funnel fill cartridges reliable? I'd
> probably eventually use one of Paul's bw inksets. Any advice welcome.
> Btw., the seller is asking $1900. Is that a good price?
>
> -Peter
>
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


------------------------------------

Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.

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If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
Yahoo! Groups Links






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

My apologies.  I was thinking of the 7600, not the 9600.  1900 might  
be a good deal for a 9600.

James


On May 20, 2008, at 9:05 AM, Peter De Smidt wrote:

> I have the chance to buy an Epson 9600. It's within driving range, and
> I have a van. I do have a copy of the manual, and I'd print off a
> status page, one that tells how much ink has been run through, what
> might need maintenance soon... Besides that, is there anything I  
> should
> look for? Are the after market funnel fill cartridges reliable? I'd
> probably eventually use one of Paul's bw inksets. Any advice welcome.
> Btw., the seller is asking $1900. Is that a good price?
>
> -Peter
>
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

A refurbed (basically new with warranty) 9800 is about $3800 now.  
Might want to use that for comparison.

Mark
http://www.stillrivereditions.com

On May 20, 2008, at 11:00 AM, James Irelan wrote:

> My apologies.  I was thinking of the 7600, not the 9600.  1900 might
> be a good deal for a 9600.
>
> James
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

At 10:22 AM 5/20/2008, James Irelan wrote:
>I remember these as being right at $3k when they first came out.  I
>could be wrong.  Later I think they were available for a few hundred
>less than that.  So if you use the general rule of thumb that
>something used should be priced at about 60%, top dollar would be
>$1800.  So I'd say that $1900 is high, especially given that you have
>to go pick it up, and given that it's likely not in mint, virtually
>unused shape.
>
>Where are you located?  I've got a 9500 I'm selling for $1,000.  :   )
>
>James

For what it's worth, I just got a 7600, shipped to my door, for 
$500.  It appears to be in excellent condition.



	A r t h u r  .  F i n k  .  P h o t o g r a p h y
	-------------------------------------------------
	Ten New Island Avenue         . land 207.766.5722
	Peaks Island, Maine 04108     . cell 207.615.5722
	www.arthurfinkphoto.com  . af@...

	More dance images  www.f64gallery.com/arthur.html
                    www.arthurfinkphoto.com/BatesShow2007

	Problems with my e-mail address?  My provider has
	been returning some mail as if it were spam!  You
	can address me at    arthurfinkphoto@...

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "kalebtreuman" 
<kalebtreuman@...> wrote:
>
> Uh, Brilliant Graphics owns the Heidelberg.
> 

Ok. I mentioned the other place because they are the print shop that 
Focus lists on their web pages as a printing partner.

> Peter De Smidt <pdesmidt@...> wrote:
>
>  Are the after market funnel fill cartridges reliable? 
>

I bought two sets. One from MIS, one from Lyson. 

The Lyson ones have worked flawlessly from day 1. I can recommend 
those. The others took me about 3-4 tries to get a working set of 
carts (returning bad carts and trying again.)

The price seems a little high. I have seen the 9600 go from $750 to 
$1,500 most of the time on Ebay. That include about 6% in Ebay fees, 
so you should pay a bit less off of Ebay. Depends on ink 
usagee, "star" staus of components, ink included, etc.

You can buy a refurb 9800 for $3,600, a much newer machine in many 
ways (more solid ink set for Photo Black.) The net on a brand new 
9880 is under $3,600 if you count in the $500 rebate, plus 3 roolls 
of 44" Epson Waterproof Canvas at about $250 a roll.

I am running Paul's Carbon 6 ink set in a 7600. 

It is a good ink set, but I really want to transition away from matte 
paper to using all "Photo Black" paper - instead of running Photo 
Black for color and matte for B&W. Haven't decided how to do that yet.

Good luck!

Best, Michael

I don't think anyone makes 9880 empty carts. Correct?

Mark
http://www.stillrivereditions.com

On May 20, 2008, at 1:56 PM, Michael T. Murphy wrote:

>  The net on a brand new
> 9880 is under $3,600



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Mark Savoia <mark@...> wrote:
>
> I don't think anyone makes 9880 empty carts. Correct?
> 

Not that I have seen yet Mark.  I know Jon Cone said recently they are 
looking at the carts for the 7880/9880 and don't expect too much to be 
different.

In the meantime, you would need to refill the Epson OEM carts for the 
9880. I have been refilling the 220ml carts for the 7600 for some inks. 
It is not as tedious as refilling small carts, like the 2400. ;>)

I use a 60cc syringe and an adapter from MIS. It takes about 4 syringe 
fulls, maybe 5 minutes, to refill a 220ml cart. I have been sucking the 
K3 ink out of 4800 220ml carts and refilling both the wide format 
refillable carts and the regular 7600 OEM carts.

The open wide format refillable carts are a bit easier.  Easier to 
monitor too. You either have to weigh the other carts, or just "top 
them off" often to prevent running out.

FWIW, there is a used 9800 with free shipping on Ebay. No bids, 
starting at $2,000, with 15 hours left.

Best,
Michael

On 20.5.2008, at 1:15, Greg wrote:

> None of the inkjet papers that I ever found
> were thin enough to make a good book, let alone only single sided.

Hahnemühle Fine Art Proof 110 g/m2, but they discontinued it. :(

m.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Sluka Martin
<martin.sluka@...> wrote:
>
> 
> On 20.5.2008, at 1:15, Greg wrote:
> 
> > None of the inkjet papers that I ever found
> > were thin enough to make a good book, let alone only single sided.
> 
> Hahnemühle Fine Art Proof 110 g/m2, but they discontinued it. :(
> 
> m.
>


Yes, that would have been a decent single sided paper for books. It
was tough, looked great, and thin (and "cheap"). Too bad no one used
it for work prints like it was designed.

I have used Red River Paper's 32lb Preimium Matte CS2 for years.  
Unfortunately it is only available in sheets.

Hal Gage
halgage.com

Gage Hal wrote:
> I have used Red River Paper's 32lb Preimium Matte CS2 for years.  
> Unfortunately it is only available in sheets.
> 
> Hal Gage
> halgage.com

There are some two sided papers on rolls and for proofing in 
the graphic arts industry there are several weights 
available. Offset like papers so not comparable with HM's 
archival quality but the image quality can be very good. 
OBA's in them however. There's a 190 grams quality that 
Intelicoat/Magiclee sells and I have a 100 grams quality on 
42 inch wide roll without a brand name from a 
distributor/roll converter here in The Netherlands. Seen 120 
and 150 grams on the Drupa two weeks ago  Tecco.de should 
have them.

-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst


|  Dinkla Grafische Techniek  |
|     www.pigment-print.com    |
|             ( unvollendet )            |

http://www.my100books.com/

Michael Reichmann from luminous landscape wrote about this vendor. 
perhaps worth checking out to see if they do want you're looking for.



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Joost Horsten" 
<j.h.j.h@...> wrote:
>
> Hi all
> 
> As I would have expected this to be a repeating question I searched 
the 
> group archive but only found this 2-years old thread:
> 
> 
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/messag
e/
> 72177
> 
> I'm looking for a fine art quality b&w bookprinting service. There 
are 
> so many color print services around, but the ones I've tried, seen 
and 
> heard of, all seem to deliver poor B&W quality: lack of resolution 
and 

> color cast. Hasn't there been any progress in the last two years?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Joost
>