Digital BW, The Print

Hello--I am new posting here, but have read posts for a long time, and I know how 
experienced this group is.  My Epson 2200 printer died, and I would like to get a new printer 
that has excellent B&W output.   I think I have narrowed the choice down to the Epson 3800, 
and the Epson 1400 equipped with Piezography K6 inks.  Does anyone here have experience 
with the Epson 1400 or these inks or both?  Can a 3 black system make prints that approach 
a 6 black one?  How does this system compare to OEM and the Epson 3800?  Any insights 
would be really appreciated.

As someone who is somewhat familiar with both the 3800 and the 1400 
I would suggest one way to gain more information before making your 
decision would be to contact Jon Cone/Inkjetmall.com and request 
print samples made on the two machines using different piezography 
ink sets. I suggest you inspect the prints with a 10x loupe as 
well.  Judge for yourself which combination you prefer. All else 
being the same, if you need 17x22", then you would need to go with 
the 3800, if 13X19" suits you then the less expensive 1400 will be 
fine. 

Rudy Ternbach
South Hadley, MAsstts


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Yeung-Seu 
Yoon" <yeungseuyoon@...> wrote:
>
> Hello--I am new posting here, but have read posts for a long time, 
and I know how 
> experienced this group is.  My Epson 2200 printer died, and I 
would like to get a new printer 
> that has excellent B&W output.   I think I have narrowed the 
choice down to the Epson 3800, 
> and the Epson 1400 equipped with Piezography K6 inks.  Does anyone 
here have experience 
> with the Epson 1400 or these inks or both?  Can a 3 black system 
make prints that approach 
> a 6 black one?  How does this system compare to OEM and the Epson 
3800?  Any insights 
> would be really appreciated.
>

I own and use a 3800 and recently attended a workshop with a 1400 with 
the K6 set up.
I second the suggestion that you get samples from Inkjet Mall for the 
K6 system.
There are real differences between the 2.  The K6 system for the 1400 
is a special system that Jon Cone designed, so you have to decide if 
you like the image tone (hue).  It varies widely based on paper 
choice.  That is also true with Epson OEMs, but you can change the 
toning.  
Are you interested in using glossy papers, or only matte?.  The K6 
system as it currently exists is for matte only. 

I have spent a lot of time looking at the same file printed on the same 
paper (velvet fine art) using these 2 printers.  Using a loupe, I can 
see real differences in the details between the 2.  I think that the K6 
is tighter and shows detail better.  It matches up with the resloution 
comparrison on Inkjet Mall website.  Looking at the prints, the 
diffferences are subtle. There are areas where the OEM print had fine 
detail that looks like ink blobs were the k6 system looks like a photo. 
Again, this is only with the loupe. The print is small, (5x7) and I'm 
not sure I see real differences in the quality without the loupe, but I 
would think it would become more apparent as the prints get larger.

I asked on the Piezo group if the difference was the printer or the ink 
set and Jon responded that it is the ink set that make the difference.

My experience is that you should be able to make good prints on either 
system, but it appears that for the last bit of quality, a dedicated 
ink set still has an advantage.

Hope this helps,

Peter

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "zonepeter" <zonepeter@...> 
wrote:

Thanks so much for this detailed reply.  It has really helped.  I've decided to buy the Epson 
R2400, and I will try the OEM inks.  If they are not adequate, I will convert it for use with a 
Piezography K7 set and a CIS and stick with matte papers.   I decided against the Epson 
1400 and K6 inks primarily because the printer is not engineered to accept the thicker 
papers, and I can visualize a future where I have to feed and feed and feed the paper 
before the printer accepts it.

> I own and use a 3800 and recently attended a workshop with a 1400 with 
> the K6 set up.
> I second the suggestion that you get samples from Inkjet Mall for the 
> K6 system.
> There are real differences between the 2.  The K6 system for the 1400 
> is a special system that Jon Cone designed, so you have to decide if 
> you like the image tone (hue).  It varies widely based on paper 
> choice.  That is also true with Epson OEMs, but you can change the 
> toning.  
> Are you interested in using glossy papers, or only matte?.  The K6 
> system as it currently exists is for matte only. 
> 
> I have spent a lot of time looking at the same file printed on the same 
> paper (velvet fine art) using these 2 printers.  Using a loupe, I can 
> see real differences in the details between the 2.  I think that the K6 
> is tighter and shows detail better.  It matches up with the resloution 
> comparrison on Inkjet Mall website.  Looking at the prints, the 
> diffferences are subtle. There are areas where the OEM print had fine 
> detail that looks like ink blobs were the k6 system looks like a photo. 
> Again, this is only with the loupe. The print is small, (5x7) and I'm 
> not sure I see real differences in the quality without the loupe, but I 
> would think it would become more apparent as the prints get larger.
> 
> I asked on the Piezo group if the difference was the printer or the ink 
> set and Jon responded that it is the ink set that make the difference.
> 
> My experience is that you should be able to make good prints on either 
> system, but it appears that for the last bit of quality, a dedicated 
> ink set still has an advantage.
> 
> Hope this helps,
> 
> Peter
>

>...
> 1400 ... printer is not engineered to accept the thicker papers, ... 

On that point there was a thread a while ago.  To update my experience 
with the 1400, I've found Photo Rag 308 feeds without problem, but 
Premier Art HP 325 needs an assist and is not that happy in the printer.

Also, relating to inksets, for a variable-tone, matte and glossy 
compatible one see http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/UT14.pdf  

I currently have Eboni-6 -- http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eboni-
6.pdf -- running in the 1400.  The print tones it achieves are very 
similar to the C88 with Eboni-6 or Carbon-6.  
See http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/C88-C13-5.pdf 

I'm impressed with the printer.  It even prints Eboni black only so 
smoothly that I've retired my 1800.  (Anyone want to buy an 1800?)

Paul  
www.PaulRoark.com

Hello Paul,

Assuming the 1400 is a 1.5 picoliters like the R1800, could one use
Eboni-6 in the R1800 with QTR curves?

I know you do not recommend Carbon-6 due to the generic open source
base. But have you tested Eboni-6 in an R1800?

I know the 1400 is not expensive, but one has to also take into
account buying carts or more probably an empty CIS etc.

Would be nice to be able to use the R1800 until it dies... ;-)

Many thanks again for your invaluable contribution to the BW community!

Denis

> 
> I currently have Eboni-6 -- http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eboni-
> 6.pdf -- running in the 1400.  The print tones it achieves are very 
> similar to the C88 with Eboni-6 or Carbon-6.  
> See http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/C88-C13-5.pdf 
> 
> I'm impressed with the printer.  It even prints Eboni black only so 
> smoothly that I've retired my 1800.  (Anyone want to buy an 1800?)
> 

>

I think you should take a second look at the Epson 3800.
If you factor in the 2400 ink costs the 3800 is not more expensive
and it actually costs approximately $100.00 less.
<http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/printers/epson-3800.shtml>
The reasons I would go for the 3800 are:
1. Larger ink cartridges, no need for a CIS.
2. Automatic switching between Photo & Matte Black.
3. Prints up to 17" wide.
Right now Epson.com has refurbished models on sale for $945.00 making
the printer another $350.00 less than a new Epson 3800 and only $250
more than a new 2400 after the $100 rebate.

Don

-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
Yeung-Seu Yoon
Sent: Monday, July 28, 2008 10:55 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Piezography K6 and Epson 1400


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "zonepeter"
<zonepeter@...>
wrote:

Thanks so much for this detailed reply.  It has really helped.  I've decided
to buy the Epson
R2400, and I will try the OEM inks.  If they are not adequate, I will
convert it for use with a
Piezography K7 set and a CIS and stick with matte papers.   I decided
against the Epson
1400 and K6 inks primarily because the printer is not engineered to accept
the thicker
papers, and I can visualize a future where I have to feed and feed and feed
the paper
before the printer accepts it.

Hi Denis,

> Assuming the 1400 is a 1.5 picoliters like the R1800, could one use
> Eboni-6 in the R1800 with QTR curves?

Yes, Eboni-6 should be able to be run in the 1800.

> I know you do not recommend Carbon-6 due to the generic open source
> base. But have you tested Eboni-6 in an R1800?

In fact, I've tested both on the 1800.  Avoid Carbon-6 on the 1800.  
The 1.5 pl dot may require a stronger surfactant than Photo-Flo.  
Eboni-6 was relatively smooth on the one-jet test with the 1800, but 
Carbon-6 showed micro-banding.

> I know the 1400 is not expensive, but one has to also take into
> account buying carts or more probably an empty CIS etc.

Yes, the 1800 uses the most available carts.  A certain percentage 
leak at the outlet on refilling, and they should be discarded, but 
the 1800 type carts do seem to be the most abundant standard cart.

> Would be nice to be able to use the R1800 until it dies... ;-)

Yes.  That was my plan.  But the 1.5 pl Eboni-6 is a bit warmer on 
1.5 pl printers than on the 3 pl models.  Expect the most neutral Lab 
B to hit about 2.  That's just barely warmer, but noticeable to me, 
and I tend to favor the cooler tones.

See the C88 graphs for approximate tones on the 1800. 
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/C88-C13-5.pdf 

I'm not sure how many Eboni-6 channels would be needed for extreme 
smoothness.  

Paul  
www.PaulRoark.com

I've just mixed a week ago some generic C-6 base without Photo-Flo in
it. I use it in the empty channels of my R1800 3MK.

I also tested mixing this non Photo-Flo base with 50% Eboni ink. I've
read in your C-6 PDF that for up to 50% Photo-Flo might not be required.

I now use 2MK channels and one 50%Eboni-50%C6 base channel. I used the
curve that starts earliest for the diluted ink channel.

Assuming this 50-50 diluted mix is working and stable, is it the best
way to use it to gain smoother prints? I do not really notice any
differences as it is setup now.

Maybe 3MK and a 4th channel using the dark grey mix? As a "toning
curve" in the midtones?

Thanks,

Denis

> In fact, I've tested both on the 1800.  Avoid Carbon-6 on the 1800.  
> The 1.5 pl dot may require a stronger surfactant than Photo-Flo.  
> Eboni-6 was relatively smooth on the one-jet test with the 1800, but 
> Carbon-6 showed micro-banding.
 
> 
> I'm not sure how many Eboni-6 channels would be needed for extreme 
> smoothness.  
> 
> Paul  
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

>
> ... generic C-6 base without Photo-Flo ...with 50% Eboni ink. ...
> 
> I now use 2MK channels and one 50%Eboni-50%C6 base channel. 
> I used the curve that starts earliest for the diluted ink channel.
> 
> Assuming this 50-50 diluted mix is working and stable, is 
> it the best way to use it to gain smoother prints? 
> I do not really notice any differences as it is setup now.


The 50% Eboni ink is going to be almost as dark as the 100%.  The 
dilution to density curve is very non-linear.

I'm more interested in using the lightest ink -- Eboni-6 Y -- as the 
main ink in addition to Eboni.  With the 1400 (another 1.5 pl 
dropplet printer) Eb6 Y used heavily and exclusively at first allows 
me to reduce the 50% Lab B on Premier Art Smooth BW from about 2 with 
the full Eb6 inkset and the Epson driver set to Color Controls, to 
less than 1.  For a given density or Lab L on the paper, the inks 
print cooler as they get more dilute after the M or LK dilutions.  
So, by using the lightest ink, I can produce not only a very smooth 
print but also one that is less warm than where the full inkset is 
used.

Paul  
www.PaulRoark.com

Thanks Paul. I have successfully blended some sort of C6Y. Using the
splitone functionality of QTR I use a simple curve for the C6Y ink
channel and use it at 100% for the highlights. The rest is the usual
3MK (midtones and shadows). It does remove some of the warmth when
using Premier Art BW. Makes the print more neutral. Very neutral in
fact. Will be good for some images.

But it does remove the natural splitone effect of the Eboni on OBA papers.

Would there be a way to enhance the splitone effect using the 3MK
approach and adding a dilute ink or color channel in the curves mix?

I find splitone BW prints to have more depth... and very good for some
images. 

Thanks again,

Denis 

> I'm more interested in using the lightest ink -- Eboni-6 Y -- as the 
> main ink in addition to Eboni.  With the 1400 (another 1.5 pl 
> dropplet printer) Eb6 Y used heavily and exclusively at first allows 
> me to reduce the 50% Lab B on Premier Art Smooth BW from about 2 with 
> the full Eb6 inkset and the Epson driver set to Color Controls, to 
> less than 1.  For a given density or Lab L on the paper, the inks 
> print cooler as they get more dilute after the M or LK dilutions.  
> So, by using the lightest ink, I can produce not only a very smooth 
> print but also one that is less warm than where the full inkset is 
> used.
> 
> Paul  
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "the_des_bois" 
<thedesbois@...> wrote:
>
...
> Would there be a way to enhance the splitone effect using the 3MK
> approach and adding a dilute ink or color channel in the curves mix?
> 
> I find splitone BW prints to have more depth... 
> and very good for some images. 
> 

If you wanted a warmer ink, then a dilute carbon would make a lot of 
sense.  The warmth seems to peak at about the light black density.  You 
could dilute Eboni, or just use the standard MIS LK, which is warmer 
yet.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

I have learned a lot from this group, thanks to all that contribute.
Paul Roark said in a previous post that 'The warmth (of dilute carbon)
seems to peak at about the light black density. You 
could dilute Eboni, or just use the standard MIS LK, which is warmer 
yet.'

I am currently printing for a show on an Epson 9800 using the Advanced
Black & White (ABW) printing mode. The printer is on loan so I wanted
to keep it as standard as possible by not replacing the colour
(English spelling) inks.

I am printing on HPR 44" rolls and wanted to increase the maximum
black so I switched the Epson MK for MIS Eboni. I also switched the LK
& LLK for the MIS equivalents to keep ink costs down and to give an
overall warmer tone. The ABW settings were left at neutral in the hope
that it would minimise the use of the coloured inks in the ABW driver. 

Unfortunately the MIS LLK cartridge stopped supplying ink even though
the cartridge was half full. As I had no spare I ordered a replacement
and in the interim I reverted to the Epson LLK and resumed printing.

When I examined the output I was very happy. The Epson LLK produced
relatively neutral light grey tones whereas the darker greys are warm
due to the MIS LK, and the Eboni blacks are deep black. The overall
split tone effect is, to my eyes, very pleasing and so easily
(accidentally) achieved! 

John T