Digital BW, The Print

Said I would report back about the tests I did with the Hahnemuhle
Photorag Baryta paper on the Z3100 with gloss enhancer channel utilized.

I'm going to make this short if I can.

Tested many of these.

This is my workflow as it stands now.
Send file as grayscale, HPZ printer manages color.
No Icc Profile.
Calibrate (linearize) using the new HP Media Setting - HP Baryta Satin
available on their website.

This new media setting apparently adds more glop because the Ilford
Gold Satin Fiber is now working beautifully with this media setting
and it showed lots of gloss differential before on everything. The
Hahnemuhle Photorag Baryta is also looking very very good, though more
expensive.

There is a tad of bronzing on all of these papers with some images if
you are super super picky about it but ironically now the Ilford is
almost completely free of it and the Photorag Baryta is right behind
it because the texture works so well. Both have excellent textures in
my opinion that seperates them from Silver Rag, so they work great for
small as well as large prints. The print color is excellent with no
color inks used, or fine if toned, which I'm not inclined to do unless
I really need warmer results. Tonal distribution and dmax are first
class for these kinds of papers.

This new media setting is helping here.
There is a lot for the manufacturers to learn about this glop to paper
interaction. This is a big deal.

Sill looking to test the Hp Baryta Satin. Not available yet. It could
be perfect. We'll see. Shades Of Paper will have it soon.

John

John, thanks so much for the report. Can you describe the surface,
compared to IGFS? The the base hue, is it acceptable or that blue I
love to hate?
Tyler
http://www.custom-digital.com/

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean"
<deanwork2003@...> wrote:

>
> Said I would report back about the tests I did with the Hahnemuhle
> Photorag Baryta paper on the Z3100 with gloss enhancer channel utilized.
> 
> I'm going to make this short if I can.
> 
> Tested many of these.
> 
> This is my workflow as it stands now.
> Send file as grayscale, HPZ printer manages color.
> No Icc Profile.
> Calibrate (linearize) using the new HP Media Setting - HP Baryta Satin
> available on their website.
> 
> This new media setting apparently adds more glop because the Ilford
> Gold Satin Fiber is now working beautifully with this media setting
> and it showed lots of gloss differential before on everything. The
> Hahnemuhle Photorag Baryta is also looking very very good, though more
> expensive.
> 
> There is a tad of bronzing on all of these papers with some images if
> you are super super picky about it but ironically now the Ilford is
> almost completely free of it and the Photorag Baryta is right behind
> it because the texture works so well. Both have excellent textures in
> my opinion that seperates them from Silver Rag, so they work great for
> small as well as large prints. The print color is excellent with no
> color inks used, or fine if toned, which I'm not inclined to do unless
> I really need warmer results. Tonal distribution and dmax are first
> class for these kinds of papers.
> 
> This new media setting is helping here.
> There is a lot for the manufacturers to learn about this glop to paper
> interaction. This is a big deal.
> 
> Sill looking to test the Hp Baryta Satin. Not available yet. It could
> be perfect. We'll see. Shades Of Paper will have it soon.
> 
> John
>

Tyler,

I'm going to send you several tomorrow. I'll send the grayscale
version and the srgb version that is toned to "Ilfobrom" hue.

When I look at these on a table they look very neutrally normal to me
and not cold. When I put them next to the same print on Cone Neutral
K7 on Photorag they make the Cone inks look warmer, but the HP prints
still don't look cool to me, probably will to you.... This is hard to
describe you'll have to see.

The more you print on any of the Baryta papers the more Photorag and
William Turner look warm. My old teacher Todd Walker said there is no
such thing as a monochrome print color unless you put something else
beside it and then that changes your perception and defines what it
is. So, if you have a whole show of this work or a portfolio it just
looks natural to me, but cooler than K7, if you are using the HP
blacks only ( which you don't have to do). I woudn't want to mix the
two kinds of print color together in one show however.

In a side note, I'm not sure I agree that there is a one true neutral,
only relative neutrals. Recently I scanned and printed a series of
pencil drawings with the Cone Neutral K7 on Photorag and they matched
the color and tonal values of the drawings so exactly that it was
scary. You really couldn't tell which was the original. So, NK7
matches graphite pencil exactly. Is that slighty warm? Don't know the
answer to that. The selenim tone K7 you are using are closer to the HP
 Vivera blacks than NK7.

John






--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley"
<tyler@...> wrote:

>
> John, thanks so much for the report. Can you describe the surface,
> compared to IGFS? The the base hue, is it acceptable or that blue I
> love to hate?
> Tyler
> http://www.custom-digital.com/

John, I really appreciate this info.  I also use the 3100 and probably  
am missing something.  Why no profile (your printer/paper/temp/ 
humidity etc)  from application --  I thought this was almost always  
superior?  I don't understand the calibration being downloaded, this  
is what the software always asks me to do when it is outdated for my  
printer/paper combo.    Does the downloaded calibration simply  
override mine?  J Vee
On Nov 12, 2008, at 11:10 PM, john dean wrote:

> Said I would report back about the tests I did with the Hahnemuhle
> Photorag Baryta paper on the Z3100 with gloss enhancer channel  
> utilized.
>
> I'm going to make this short if I can.
>
> Tested many of these.
>
> This is my workflow as it stands now.
> Send file as grayscale, HPZ printer manages color.
> No Icc Profile.
> Calibrate (linearize) using the new HP Media Setting - HP Baryta Satin
> available on their website.
>
> This new media setting apparently adds more glop because the Ilford
> Gold Satin Fiber is now working beautifully with this media setting
> and it showed lots of gloss differential before on everything. The
> Hahnemuhle Photorag Baryta is also looking very very good, though more
> expensive.
>
> There is a tad of bronzing on all of these papers with some images if
> you are super super picky about it but ironically now the Ilford is
> almost completely free of it and the Photorag Baryta is right behind
> it because the texture works so well. Both have excellent textures in
> my opinion that seperates them from Silver Rag, so they work great for
> small as well as large prints. The print color is excellent with no
> color inks used, or fine if toned, which I'm not inclined to do unless
> I really need warmer results. Tonal distribution and dmax are first
> class for these kinds of papers.
>
> This new media setting is helping here.
> There is a lot for the manufacturers to learn about this glop to paper
> interaction. This is a big deal.
>
> Sill looking to test the Hp Baryta Satin. Not available yet. It could
> be perfect. We'll see. Shades Of Paper will have it soon.
>
> John
>
>
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yes, when you download new printer driver updates it overrides the the previous version 
when the computer is restarted.

What I was referring to as a "media preset" is the custom setting that HP creates to control 
ink limits and the amount of gloss enhancer used. Those are being continually updated on 
their website. When you download the preset there is a pdf describing how you install it 
into the driver so it will be available.

There are two primary ways to print black and white on the Z. First, and what HP 
recommends, is to select LET PRINTER MANAGE COLOR in the Photoshop driver. This 
effectively disables color management through Photoshop and won't allow you to use an 
ICC Profile. ICC Profiles are needed for RGB color space only in this situation. By sending a 
grayscale file without an icc profile to the printer all color management is turned off in 
Photoshop and only the 3 gray inks are used for gloss papers and a max of 4 for matte 
papers. What you do need to do beforehand though is to linearize the grayscale in the HP 
driver by using the "calibrate" printer routine. The printer will always ask you to do this 
anyway. So in HP terminology Calibrate the printer means linearize the graysale, and 
Create ICC profile means make a color calibration.

The other way I use to print black and white on the Z is to  use an srgb color space, convert 
to profile in Photoshop, to srgb, and  let PHOTOSHOP MANAGE COLOR in the Photoshop 
dialogue box. At that point you can send the file with no color in it and apply the icc 
profile. You really end up pretty much with the same result as the grayscale mode if you 
are not using toning options, but using a larger file size than is needed. The advantage of 
printing in an srgb color space is that you can tone the print to a warmer or cooler print 
color than the color of the black inks alone with more control in my opinion. SRGB over 
Adobe1998 or Colormatch suppresses the color gamut which is what you want to do for 
black and white uniformity.  Often what I do in this case is make a hue saturation 
adjustment layer, click colorize, and set the hue to 26 and the saturate slider to anywhere 
between 3 and 6 to warm up the print. If you are going to do this don't use a really cool 
based paper because the obas can create metamerism if you are not careful. Much more 
saturation can give you a sepia print etc. Changing the Hue slider changes the print color. 
The warmer the print color you use the warmer the paper base that should be used for 
uniformity. 

You can also tone in the HP black and white mode of their software, which is similar to 
Epson's Advanced Black and White, using that color wheel and making a preset for the 
future, but I find it is much more difficult to achieve a consistent color throughout the 
color spectrum. Others may have different opinions about using that method.

j



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, James W Veenstra <j_vee@...> 
wrote:

>
> John, I really appreciate this info.  I also use the 3100 and probably  
> am missing something.  Why no profile (your printer/paper/temp/ 
> humidity etc)  from application --  I thought this was almost always  
> superior?  I don't understand the calibration being downloaded, this  
> is what the software always asks me to do when it is outdated for my  
> printer/paper combo.    Does the downloaded calibration simply  
> override mine?  J Vee
> On Nov 12, 2008, at 11:10 PM, john dean wrote:
>

I have a quaesion for the group:� I just printed some beautiful pictures on MOAB LASAL Matte paper on my Epson 2400 and I am quite delighted with the results.� My question is, do I have to use some sort of spray coating to protect the prints?� I plan to mat and mount the prints.
�
Joe Chandler�

--- On Thu, 11/13/08, Tyler Boley <tyler@...> wrote:

From: Tyler Boley <tyler@...>
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Baryta Fiber Gloss Media & Monochrome
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, November 13, 2008, 2:44 PM






John, thanks so much for the report. Can you describe the surface,
compared to IGFS? The the base hue, is it acceptable or that blue I
love to hate?
Tyler
http://www.custom- digital.com/

--- In DigitalBlackandWhit eThePrint@ yahoogroups. com, "john dean"
<deanwork2003@ ...> wrote:
>
> Said I would report back about the tests I did with the Hahnemuhle
> Photorag Baryta paper on the Z3100 with gloss enhancer channel utilized.
> 
> I'm going to make this short if I can.
> 
> Tested many of these.
> 
> This is my workflow as it stands now.
> Send file as grayscale, HPZ printer manages color.
> No Icc Profile.
> Calibrate (linearize) using the new HP Media Setting - HP Baryta Satin
> available on their website.
> 
> This new media setting apparently adds more glop because the Ilford
> Gold Satin Fiber is now working beautifully with this media setting
> and it showed lots of gloss differential before on everything. The
> Hahnemuhle Photorag Baryta is also looking very very good, though more
> expensive.
> 
> There is a tad of bronzing on all of these papers with some images if
> you are super super picky about it but ironically now the Ilford is
> almost completely free of it and the Photorag Baryta is right behind
> it because the texture works so well. Both have excellent textures in
> my opinion that seperates them from Silver Rag, so they work great for
> small as well as large prints. The print color is excellent with no
> color inks used, or fine if toned, which I'm not inclined to do unless
> I really need warmer results. Tonal distribution and dmax are first
> class for these kinds of papers.
> 
> This new media setting is helping here.
> There is a lot for the manufacturers to learn about this glop to paper
> interaction. This is a big deal.
> 
> Sill looking to test the Hp Baryta Satin. Not available yet. It could
> be perfect. We'll see. Shades Of Paper will have it soon.
> 
> John
>

 














      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I don't spray, others do. I take great care with the handling and
storage of the prints, far more than was necessary for darkroom
materials, and rarely have problems. For certain projects, if I had a
facility where spraying would be environmentally safer, and healthier,
I might do it. 
I never ever mount any of these prints. I don't trust any of the
adhesives and have seen a lot of ruined prints from the hungry
coatings drawing in adhesive outgasses and yellowing. I've use photo
corners or filmoplast tape hinges or corners.
Alsway imediately put your prints, matted or not, into clear bags, or
use a slick interleaving, so that nothing with any possiblew scuffing
ability can touch it, Never touch the image surface of any of these
prints.
Always pre-brush the matte papers before printing, NEVER touch the
print surface of the photo surface papers before printing.
If you spray, try the Lascaux, John Dean is the after-treatment expert
so maybe he'll chime in.
Tyler
http://www.custom-digital.com/

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Joseph Chandler
<over40_98@...> wrote:
>
> I have a quaesion for the group:  I just printed some beautiful
pictures on MOAB LASAL Matte paper on my Epson 2400 and I am quite
delighted with the results.  My question is, do I have to use some
sort of spray coating to protect the prints?  I plan to mat and mount
the prints.
>  
> Joe Chandler 
> 
> --- On Thu, 11/13/08, Tyler Boley <tyler@...> wrote:
> 
> From: Tyler Boley <tyler@...>
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Baryta Fiber Gloss Media & Monochrome
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Thursday, November 13, 2008, 2:44 PM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> John, thanks so much for the report. Can you describe the surface,
> compared to IGFS? The the base hue, is it acceptable or that blue I
> love to hate?
> Tyler
> http://www.custom- digital.com/
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhit eThePrint@ yahoogroups. com, "john dean"
> <deanwork2003@ ...> wrote:
> >
> > Said I would report back about the tests I did with the Hahnemuhle
> > Photorag Baryta paper on the Z3100 with gloss enhancer channel
utilized.

> > 
> > I'm going to make this short if I can.
> > 
> > Tested many of these.
> > 
> > This is my workflow as it stands now.
> > Send file as grayscale, HPZ printer manages color.
> > No Icc Profile.
> > Calibrate (linearize) using the new HP Media Setting - HP Baryta Satin
> > available on their website.
> > 
> > This new media setting apparently adds more glop because the Ilford
> > Gold Satin Fiber is now working beautifully with this media setting
> > and it showed lots of gloss differential before on everything. The
> > Hahnemuhle Photorag Baryta is also looking very very good, though more
> > expensive.
> > 
> > There is a tad of bronzing on all of these papers with some images if
> > you are super super picky about it but ironically now the Ilford is
> > almost completely free of it and the Photorag Baryta is right behind
> > it because the texture works so well. Both have excellent textures in
> > my opinion that seperates them from Silver Rag, so they work great for
> > small as well as large prints. The print color is excellent with no
> > color inks used, or fine if toned, which I'm not inclined to do unless
> > I really need warmer results. Tonal distribution and dmax are first
> > class for these kinds of papers.
> > 
> > This new media setting is helping here.
> > There is a lot for the manufacturers to learn about this glop to paper
> > interaction. This is a big deal.
> > 
> > Sill looking to test the Hp Baryta Satin. Not available yet. It could
> > be perfect. We'll see. Shades Of Paper will have it soon.
> > 
> > John
> >
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>       
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Moab Entrada used to be extremely sensitive to scuffing and flaking. I
believe they have improved their coating for what they sell now and a
lot of people like it. I don't use it so I can't say these days.

Now that I don't use Ultrachrome for color work I'm trying to get
totally out of the spraying arena. They are not only expensive, they
are also an environment and health concern.

There is only one situation that I use the solvent stuff anymore, that
is with designer portolios that are to be handled a lot. And in that
case I make the client do the spraying at their home if that is what
they want to do.

Canvas acrylic/laytex uv varnishes are another story and I do use them
for canvas. Not appropriate for print media in my opinion because they
kill the surface of fine art media.

What Tyler said about putting your prints in safe clear sleeves is a
good idea and that is what I do. Any prints on any media with large
areas of black are vulnerable, the more texture the more vulnerability.

john

I like it a lot, liked Kayenta. Zero grief. It's as bright as the
brightest white and seems to stay that way (for the several years I've
used it anyway). It'd be the very cheapest absolutely
excellent-looking paper even if it wasn't two sided. The only sad
thing about  LaSal vs the old Kayenta is that it's thinner now. The
main visual negative to this paper is the somewhat weak blacks, vs
Entrada (for example).







I think someone else much better and more intelligent then she is will
emerge for the GOP in 2012! 

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Joseph Chandler
<over40_98@...> wrote:
>
> I have a quaesion for the group:  I just printed some beautiful
pictures on MOAB LASAL Matte paper on my Epson 2400 and I am quite
delighted with the results.  My question is, do I have to use some
sort of spray coating to protect the prints?  I plan to mat and mount
the prints.
>  
> Joe Chandler 
> 
> --- On Thu, 11/13/08, Tyler Boley <tyler@...> wrote:
> 
> From: Tyler Boley <tyler@...>
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Baryta Fiber Gloss Media & Monochrome
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Thursday, November 13, 2008, 2:44 PM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> John, thanks so much for the report. Can you describe the surface,
> compared to IGFS? The the base hue, is it acceptable or that blue I
> love to hate?
> Tyler
> http://www.custom- digital.com/
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhit eThePrint@ yahoogroups. com, "john dean"
> <deanwork2003@ ...> wrote:
> >
> > Said I would report back about the tests I did with the Hahnemuhle
> > Photorag Baryta paper on the Z3100 with gloss enhancer channel
utilized.

> > 
> > I'm going to make this short if I can.
> > 
> > Tested many of these.
> > 
> > This is my workflow as it stands now.
> > Send file as grayscale, HPZ printer manages color.
> > No Icc Profile.
> > Calibrate (linearize) using the new HP Media Setting - HP Baryta Satin
> > available on their website.
> > 
> > This new media setting apparently adds more glop because the Ilford
> > Gold Satin Fiber is now working beautifully with this media setting
> > and it showed lots of gloss differential before on everything. The
> > Hahnemuhle Photorag Baryta is also looking very very good, though more
> > expensive.
> > 
> > There is a tad of bronzing on all of these papers with some images if
> > you are super super picky about it but ironically now the Ilford is
> > almost completely free of it and the Photorag Baryta is right behind
> > it because the texture works so well. Both have excellent textures in
> > my opinion that seperates them from Silver Rag, so they work great for
> > small as well as large prints. The print color is excellent with no
> > color inks used, or fine if toned, which I'm not inclined to do unless
> > I really need warmer results. Tonal distribution and dmax are first
> > class for these kinds of papers.
> > 
> > This new media setting is helping here.
> > There is a lot for the manufacturers to learn about this glop to paper
> > interaction. This is a big deal.
> > 
> > Sill looking to test the Hp Baryta Satin. Not available yet. It could
> > be perfect. We'll see. Shades Of Paper will have it soon.
> > 
> > John
> >
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>       
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

If you liked Kayenta, you would like PremierArt Matt BW. Very similar appearance, but better dmax.

Richard

At 02:30 p.m. Saturday 15/11/2008, you wrote:
>I like it a lot, liked Kayenta. Zero grief. It's as bright as the
>brightest white and seems to stay that way (for the several years I've
>used it anyway). It'd be the very cheapest absolutely
>excellent-looking paper even if it wasn't two sided. The only sad
>thing about LaSal vs the old Kayenta is that it's thinner now. The
>main visual negative to this paper is the somewhat weak blacks, vs
>Entrada (for example).
>
>I think someone else much better and more intelligent then she is will
>emerge for the GOP in 2012! 

--
www.richardsmallfield.com 

   "Art should never try to be popular. The public should try to make
   itself artistic."
   --Oscar Wilde


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Richard,  right... except for the gigantic price difference.

Premier Art costs literally 2.5-5X as much as LaSal. 

$20 buys 20 letter-sized sheets of Premier Art.

$20 buys 50 sheets of DOUBLE SIDED LaSal 

Moab first promoted Kayenta (LaSal) for proofing Entrada Bright, but
since it was a better paper than EEM I began to use it
extensively...but I've come to realize that the Dmax is an issue with
small prints. It's plenty good at 11X17+ where Dmax becomes less of a
concern and where the prints will only be seen behind glass or in a
good sleeve.

Delivering unframed, I always/only use a sidelock polyester sleeve
protecting the print and producing the look I want anyway (does
anybody visualize delivered prints hidden away in boxes?). 

Quickly reviewing a big collection of B&W by other photographers, my
Epson favorites are Double Sided Matte and Velvet Fine Art, but it's
wonderful to see how many great alternatives we have. 

 HPR, my matte favorite, is currently hard to find, reportedly due to
rebranding.

For me, the most promising paper is Moab Colorado Satine (still
getting to know it with my $50 Ebay R800 test bed...looking for a deal
on an 1800)... Satine does have an exceptionally soft surface for an
hour or so after printing so it calls for careful handling...

JK

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Richard
Smallfield <r.smallfield@...> wrote:
>
> If you liked Kayenta, you would like PremierArt Matt BW. Very
similar appearance, but better dmax.

> 
> Richard
> 
> At 02:30 p.m. Saturday 15/11/2008, you wrote:
> >I like it a lot, liked Kayenta. Zero grief. It's as bright as the
> >brightest white and seems to stay that way (for the several years I've
> >used it anyway). It'd be the very cheapest absolutely
> >excellent-looking paper even if it wasn't two sided. The only sad
> >thing about LaSal vs the old Kayenta is that it's thinner now. The
> >main visual negative to this paper is the somewhat weak blacks, vs
> >Entrada (for example).
> >
> >I think someone else much better and more intelligent then she is will
> >emerge for the GOP in 2012! 
> 
> --
> www.richardsmallfield.com 
> 
>    "Art should never try to be popular. The public should try to make
>    itself artistic."
>    --Oscar Wilde
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Hi JK,
PremierArt Matt BW is also double-sided, in case you didn't realise that.

Another cheap paper I use a lot of is Hawkmountain Sparrowhawk. It's very cheap and it's good for greeting cards and economy prints. It doesn't yellow a great deal more than PremierArt either, but for dmax, I have found the PremierArt to be the best among these papers. 

I have just printed my next exhibition on Moab Colorado Satine. Fabulous! But I had to spray it to remove bronzing etc. Yes, very delicate. But they are very, very close to FB Silver Gel - once sprayed.

I've been using Entrada as my main exhibition paper, but am going to try the new PremierArt Alise when I run out of Entrada and will keep you  posted.

Richard

At 04:47 a.m. Sunday 16/11/2008, you wrote:
>Richard, right... except for the gigantic price difference.
>Premier Art costs literally 2.5-5X as much as LaSal. 
>$20 buys 20 letter-sized sheets of Premier Art.
>$20 buys 50 sheets of DOUBLE SIDED LaSal 

--
www.richardsmallfield.com 

   "The man for whom law exists - the man of forms, 
   the Conservative, is a tame man."
   --Henry David Thoreau


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]