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Digital BW, The Print

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Matching monitor and print

Matching monitor and print

2008-11-24 by Stephen Kobrin

I find that my prints are consistently darker than my screen.  I use a
Macbook Pro and an external 24" Dell monitor.  I have profiled the
monitor with a Xrite eyeone -2 and print on a 2400 using ABW.  The
prints are consistently darker than the screen even when I use basic
Epson papers (e.g., EEM).  I have CS3 set correctly to no color
management and selected the paper correctly. The monitor is connected
via a DVI cable.  The monitor does not have a contrast adjustment, but
I can adjust the brightness.  However, I assumed that the eyeone takes
care of that during the profiling process.  

The tonal rendition (shadows, highlights and midtones) looks ok to my
very amateur eye.  The only problem seems to be that the prints are
consistently darker than the monitor.  While I can increase brightness
using a curve before I print, that seems to defeat the whole idea of
profiling.

Any help appreciated.

Steve

Re: [Digital BW] Matching monitor and print

2008-11-24 by Michael King

Steve,
But as far as I can tell you haven't profiled your ABW printing path, so you
have only profiled half the workflow.
If you don't have a reflective spectro to profile prints, you can try and
fudge it.

Epson set up ABW so that the "dark" setting approximately matches gamma 2.2
image.
Note on a Mac your default gamma is probably 1.8.

I would Google Epson ABW and read up about how to use this with and without
printer profiling.

Mike



2008/11/24 Stephen Kobrin <kobrins@...>

>   I find that my prints are consistently darker than my screen. I use a
> Macbook Pro and an external 24" Dell monitor. I have profiled the
> monitor with a Xrite eyeone -2 and print on a 2400 using ABW. The
> prints are consistently darker than the screen even when I use basic
> Epson papers (e.g., EEM). I have CS3 set correctly to no color
> management and selected the paper correctly. The monitor is connected
> via a DVI cable. The monitor does not have a contrast adjustment, but
> I can adjust the brightness. However, I assumed that the eyeone takes
> care of that during the profiling process.
>
> The tonal rendition (shadows, highlights and midtones) looks ok to my
> very amateur eye. The only problem seems to be that the prints are
> consistently darker than the monitor. While I can increase brightness
> using a curve before I print, that seems to defeat the whole idea of
> profiling.
>
> Any help appreciated.
>
> Steve
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Matching monitor and print

2008-11-24 by cdtobie

On Nov 24, 2008, at 9:01:00 AM, "Michael King" <drmrking@...> 
wrote:

Epson set up ABW so that the "dark" setting approximately matches 
gamma 2.2
image.
Note on a Mac your default gamma is probably 1.8.
___
What default gamma? The display might be using a gamma 1.8 profile, 
but that can be changed simply by running the calibration assistant 
and choosing gamma 2.2 (or better yet, by hardware calibrating to 
gamma 2.2). Images are in the workingspace of the application, not at 
any OS default, and the likely Photoshop workingspaces are sRGB or 
AdobeRGB, both of which are gamma 2.2. If you are printing from an 
uncolor managed application (certainly not recommended), then on 
Windows this should trigger an sRGB assumption (which is gamma 2.2), 
and on the Mac a main display profile assumption. See notes above to 
assure that your display is running at 2.2, not 1.8 on the Mac...
--
C. David Tobie
WW Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
Datacolor
CDTobie@...
www.datacolor.com/spyder3


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Matching monitor and print

2008-11-24 by cdtobie

On Nov 24, 2008, at 8:50:37 AM, "Stephen Kobrin" 
<kobrins@...> wrote:

I find that my prints are consistently darker than my screen. I use a
Macbook Pro and an external 24" Dell monitor. I have profiled the
monitor with a Xrite eyeone -2 and print on a 2400 using ABW.
___
What white luminance is your display offering once profiled? LCDs that 
are not specifically lowered to a luminance appropriate the the 
ambient lighting will almost always produce this "prints are darker 
than screen" result. I could describe how to fix this with Spyder 
products, but you'll have to find another sources of info on how to do 
this with X-Rite products... <G>
--
C. David Tobie
WW Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
Datacolor
CDTobie@...
www.datacolor.com/spyder3


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Matching monitor and print

2008-11-24 by Stephen Kobrin

Thanks Mike,

I have PS set to gamma 2.2 for B&W.  While it is off topic for this
list, I notice the same problem with color prints using the Epson
profiles for specific papers and inks. (I am very sure that the
settings in the print dialog are correct.)  Do I need to reset the
Mac's gamma to 2.2?  Or will this require an adjustment curve?

Thanks again.  I have read most of what I can find about ABW on the
net.  However, I am obviously missing something.

Steve




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Michael King"
<drmrking@...> wrote:
>
> Steve,
> But as far as I can tell you haven't profiled your ABW printing
path, so you
> have only profiled half the workflow.
> If you don't have a reflective spectro to profile prints, you can
try and
> fudge it.
> 
> Epson set up ABW so that the "dark" setting approximately matches
gamma 2.2
> image.
> Note on a Mac your default gamma is probably 1.8.
> 
> I would Google Epson ABW and read up about how to use this with and
without
> printer profiling.
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> 2008/11/24 Stephen Kobrin <kobrins@...>
> 
> >   I find that my prints are consistently darker than my screen. I
use a
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > Macbook Pro and an external 24" Dell monitor. I have profiled the
> > monitor with a Xrite eyeone -2 and print on a 2400 using ABW. The
> > prints are consistently darker than the screen even when I use basic
> > Epson papers (e.g., EEM). I have CS3 set correctly to no color
> > management and selected the paper correctly. The monitor is connected
> > via a DVI cable. The monitor does not have a contrast adjustment, but
> > I can adjust the brightness. However, I assumed that the eyeone takes
> > care of that during the profiling process.
> >
> > The tonal rendition (shadows, highlights and midtones) looks ok to my
> > very amateur eye. The only problem seems to be that the prints are
> > consistently darker than the monitor. While I can increase brightness
> > using a curve before I print, that seems to defeat the whole idea of
> > profiling.
> >
> > Any help appreciated.
> >
> > Steve
> >
> >  
> >
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Re: Matching monitor and print

2008-11-24 by Louis Dina

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Kobrin"
<kobrins@...> wrote:

> I have PS set to gamma 2.2 for B&W.  While it is off topic for this
> list, I notice the same problem with color prints using the Epson
> profiles for specific papers and inks. (I am very sure that the
> settings in the print dialog are correct.)  Do I need to reset the
> Mac's gamma to 2.2?  Or will this require an adjustment curve?
> 

Steve,

Try calibrating your monitor white luminance to a value between 90 and
100 and see if that solves your dark print problem.  If you are
getting dark prints with good, custom color profiles, then it is most
likely that your monitor brightness is too high.  

Lou

Matching monitor and print

2008-11-24 by Richard Kenward

>The tonal rendition (shadows, highlights and midtones) looks ok to my
>very amateur eye. The only problem seems to be that the prints are
>consistently darker than the monitor. While I can increase brightness
>using a curve before I print, that seems to defeat the whole idea of

Dear Steve

I cannot help thinking that one vital element is being ignored in all 
the advise being put forward, and this is there is a strong likelihood 
that your light for evaluating the prints does not meet industry 
standards, so the prints will indeed look too dark.

Cheers

Richard
-- 
Richard Kenward  (Pro-Imaging.org   member)

Re: Matching monitor and print

2008-11-25 by skefford_1

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Kobrin"
<kobrins@...> wrote:
.....
> The tonal rendition (shadows, highlights and midtones) looks ok to my
> very amateur eye.  The only problem seems to be that the prints are
> consistently darker than the monitor.  While I can increase brightness
> using a curve before I print, that seems to defeat the whole idea of
> profiling.
...

This is a popular misconception with colour management. It is not to
give you WYSYWIG. It is to manage your colour. With a monitor and a
printer WYSYWIG is an impossibility. This is not to say that you can
not get a better interpretation on your monitor, but don't expect it
to be spot on, otherwise you will just be disapointed.

Steve

Re: Matching monitor and print

2008-11-25 by Stephen Kobrin

Thanks to all who offered help with this problem,

Steve

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "skefford_1"
<keff.antispam@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Kobrin"
> <kobrins@> wrote:
> .....
> > The tonal rendition (shadows, highlights and midtones) looks ok to my
> > very amateur eye.  The only problem seems to be that the prints are
> > consistently darker than the monitor.  While I can increase brightness
> > using a curve before I print, that seems to defeat the whole idea of
> > profiling.
> ...
> 
> This is a popular misconception with colour management. It is not to
> give you WYSYWIG. It is to manage your colour. With a monitor and a
> printer WYSYWIG is an impossibility. This is not to say that you can
> not get a better interpretation on your monitor, but don't expect it
> to be spot on, otherwise you will just be disapointed.
> 
> Steve
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Matching monitor and print

2008-11-25 by cdtobie

On Nov 25, 2008, at 6:56:20 AM, skefford_1 <keff.antispam@...> wrote:

This is a popular misconception with colour management. It is not to
give you WYSYWIG. It is to manage your colour. With a monitor and a
printer WYSYWIG is an impossibility. This is not to say that you can
not get a better interpretation on your monitor, but don't expect it
to be spot on, otherwise you will just be disapointed.

___
Thats what I always hear people who aren't getting a tight screen to print match say; but with care selection of displays, appropriate ambient lighting, good proofing lighting, well  mannered inks and media, and some careful tweaking of printer profile preview functions, dead-on is certainly possible, at least at certain phases of the moon...
--
C. David Tobie
WW Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
Datacolor
CDTobie@...
www.datacolor.com/spyder3


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Matching monitor and print

2008-11-25 by Eric Neilsen

Some people are better managers than others, and some just don't see well
enough under various lighting conditions to be ABLE to manage it well. We
can calibrate monitors, printers, and chose the right light but we can't
calibrate with ease the way we see or don't see. 

 

Eric  

 

 

Eric Neilsen

4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

214-827-8301

 

www.ericneilsenphotography.com

SKYPE ejprinter
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of cdtobie
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 1:30 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Matching monitor and print

 


On Nov 25, 2008, at 6:56:20 AM, skefford_1 <keff.antispam@...
<mailto:keff.antispam%40f2s.com> > wrote:

This is a popular misconception with colour management. It is not to
give you WYSYWIG. It is to manage your colour. With a monitor and a
printer WYSYWIG is an impossibility. This is not to say that you can
not get a better interpretation on your monitor, but don't expect it
to be spot on, otherwise you will just be disapointed.

___
Thats what I always hear people who aren't getting a tight screen to print
match say; but with care selection of displays, appropriate ambient
lighting, good proofing lighting, well  mannered inks and media, and some
careful tweaking of printer profile preview functions, dead-on is certainly
possible, at least at certain phases of the moon...
--
C. David Tobie
WW Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
Datacolor
CDTobie@... <mailto:CDTobie%40datacolor.com> 
www.datacolor.com/spyder3

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Digital BW] Re: Matching monitor and print

2008-11-26 by steveabrink

Once you follow Lou's advice and that should get you close in 
brightness, a simple way to get it spot on is to add a brightness 
curve for each paper type where you can adjust shadows, mids, and 
highlights. 

SteveB    

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Neilsen" 
<e.neilsen2@...> wrote:
>
> Some people are better managers than others, and some just don't 
see well
> enough under various lighting conditions to be ABLE to manage it 
well. We
> can calibrate monitors, printers, and chose the right light but we 
can't
> calibrate with ease the way we see or don't see. 
> 
>  
> 
> Eric  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> Eric Neilsen
> 
> 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9
> 
> Dallas, TX 75226
> 
> 214-827-8301
> 
>  
> 
> www.ericneilsenphotography.com
> 
> SKYPE ejprinter
> 
>  
> 
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
cdtobie
> Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 1:30 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Matching monitor and print
> 
>  
> 
> 
> On Nov 25, 2008, at 6:56:20 AM, skefford_1 <keff.antispam@...
> <mailto:keff.antispam%40f2s.com> > wrote:
> 
> This is a popular misconception with colour management. It is not 
to
> give you WYSYWIG. It is to manage your colour. With a monitor and a
> printer WYSYWIG is an impossibility. This is not to say that you 
can
> not get a better interpretation on your monitor, but don't expect 
it
> to be spot on, otherwise you will just be disapointed.
> 
> ___
> Thats what I always hear people who aren't getting a tight screen 
to print
> match say; but with care selection of displays, appropriate ambient
> lighting, good proofing lighting, well  mannered inks and media, 
and some
> careful tweaking of printer profile preview functions, dead-on is 
certainly
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> possible, at least at certain phases of the moon...
> --
> C. David Tobie
> WW Product Technology Manager
> Digital Imaging & Home Theater
> Datacolor
> CDTobie@... <mailto:CDTobie%40datacolor.com> 
> www.datacolor.com/spyder3
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Re: Matching monitor and print

2008-11-26 by skefford_1

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, cdtobie
<CDTobie@...> wrote:
>
> 
> On Nov 25, 2008, at 6:56:20 AM, skefford_1 <keff.antispam@...> wrote:
> 
> This is a popular misconception with colour management. It is not to
> give you WYSYWIG. It is to manage your colour. With a monitor and a
... 
> ___
> Thats what I always hear people who aren't getting a tight screen to
print match say;
....

And this is what people who sell colour management solutions might
say. I note you use the word tight, and not precise (or similiar) - a
very significant difference. I think that this makes my point for me.

Steve

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Matching monitor and print

2008-11-27 by Cdtobie

I don't just develop color management systems; I also use them for  
photo peocessing and printing... like everyone else. And I find, with  
care, knowledge, and a bit of luck, that (let me use a different  
description this time) an amazingly accurate match is possible.

C. D. Tobie
WW Product Technology Mngr.
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
DataColor.com
CDTobie@DataColor.com
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Nov 26, 2008, at 6:51 PM, "skefford_1" <keff.antispam@...> wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, cdtobie
> <CDTobie@...> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Nov 25, 2008, at 6:56:20 AM, skefford_1 <keff.antispam@...> wrote:
>>
>> This is a popular misconception with colour management. It is not to
>> give you WYSYWIG. It is to manage your colour. With a monitor and a
> ...
>> ___
>> Thats what I always hear people who aren't getting a tight screen to
> print match say;
> ....
>
> And this is what people who sell colour management solutions might
> say. I note you use the word tight, and not precise (or similiar) - a
> very significant difference. I think that this makes my point for me.
>
> Steve
>
>
> ------------------------------------
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Re: Matching monitor and print

2008-11-27 by Joost Horsten

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Louis Dina" 
<lou@...> wrote:
> Try calibrating your monitor white luminance to a value between 90 and
> 100 and see if that solves your dark print problem.  If you are
> getting dark prints with good, custom color profiles, then it is most
> likely that your monitor brightness is too high.  
> 
> Lou


I agree on the most likely diagnosis. I've struggled with this for 
quite some time myself. However, I solved it differently. 

I now use a Photoshop softproof icc profile created with QTR-Create-
ICC. In this way I can very precisely tune the monitor white brightness 
to the (apparent) paper white brightness. And I don't have to sacrifce 
up my monitor brightness highly appreciated in other applications!

Joost

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