Digital BW, The Print

I thought this would be a good place to ask about dedicated film scanners.

First of all let me say that I am very much a stickler about quality, especially sharpness as 
well as highlight and shadow detail, but at the same time I don't want to spend more than 
needed on features I may not need since I am mostly concerned about using with my 
conventional B&W 35mm negs; slides are really an after thought since I really don't have 
that many. (Man longest run on sentence i've ever constructed)   I am such a stickler for 
quality that in the past I had even considered getting a used drum scanner when I was 
considering getting into 120 format several years ago.  I've used an Epson 3200 with wet 
mounts, which works well with my 4x5's and seems to be ok with 120, but is inadequate 
for 35mm.

I am looking for a dedicated film scanner for scanning primarily 35mm B&W negs, and 
probably a few slides.  I've been doing some research and I've found that there is a lot of 
conflicting information out on the web.  I was hoping to get a scanner for around $500 or 
so, and I definitely want one that can be used with wet mounting, which probably rules out 
several good film scanners.  I've found some Minolta 5400 II's that are reconditioned, but I 
don't think they can be used with a wet mount.  What about the Nikon CS V, are those 
even still available maybe used or a refurb?  I've heard some good things about Minoltas 
and Nikons.

Someone has offered to sell me their Canon FS4000 in good working order and all 
accessories for around $500, which like the Nikons can be used with a wet mount system. 
The reviews I have read about the Canon sound very good, but it is an older scanner that is 
out of production as are most of the other reasonably priced dedicated film scanners; so it 
seems Nikon pretty much has a corner on the market, at least in the semi-reasonably 
priced range.

I had almost resigned myself to getting a Nikon 5000, although it is about twice of what I 
really wanted to spend, but I will if that will give me an edge in quality with my B&W negs; 
The largest I will be enlarging my 35 mm B&W negs will probably be about 13x19 or so.

So, with all of that in mind what scanner would you recommend?  Again, no need for many 
of the features that are designed for and only work with color slides and color film, and I 
don't mind going for used equipment as long as they have a good track record.  Also, I am 
not too concerned about speed since I usually only work with one image at a time.  I'm 
after quality not speed.

Thanks in advance for everyones input!
Randy

I have a Nikon Coolscan V  and a Screen Cezanne scanner.  The Coolscan 
works very well with fine-grained negatives.  When scanning film strips, 
I've found the FH-3 carrier to give much better edge-to-edge sharpness 
than the motorized gate/carrier.   I'm not sure, though, how you'd 
wet-scan with the nikon.  (Lot's of people wet scan with a Coolscan 8000 
or 9000, but that's a medium format scanner.)  I do wet scan, using 
either Kami or Prazio mounting fluids, with the Cezanne, which is a 
large pro flatbed.  Fluid mounting will minimize the grain increase that 
most scanners have, especially with grainy film, but it is a fairly 
small improvement.  The big plus is being able to keep the negative 
perfectly flat, which can be hard to do without a glass carrier, and 
these can have problems with Newton's rings.

Good luck,
Peter

There are wet mount kits for all of the the recent Nikons including the Coolscan V.  Go to www.scanscience.com for a list of wet mount kits made for various dedicated film 
scanners, wet mounts can be used with any flatbed scanners designed to work with film.  
Yes many of the improvements are small, but all of them together can make a big 
difference in editing in PhotoShop.  Also, sometimes it is the small improvements that 
make the difference between an ok or good image and a great one.

Thanks for your comments,
Randy


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Peter De Smidt <pdesmidt@...> 
wrote:

>
> I have a Nikon Coolscan V  and a Screen Cezanne scanner.  The Coolscan 
> works very well with fine-grained negatives.  When scanning film strips, 
> I've found the FH-3 carrier to give much better edge-to-edge sharpness 
> than the motorized gate/carrier.   I'm not sure, though, how you'd 
> wet-scan with the nikon.  (Lot's of people wet scan with a Coolscan 8000 
> or 9000, but that's a medium format scanner.)  I do wet scan, using 
> either Kami or Prazio mounting fluids, with the Cezanne, which is a 
> large pro flatbed.  Fluid mounting will minimize the grain increase that 
> most scanners have, especially with grainy film, but it is a fairly 
> small improvement.  The big plus is being able to keep the negative 
> perfectly flat, which can be hard to do without a glass carrier, and 
> these can have problems with Newton's rings.
> 
> Good luck,
> Peter
>

> There are wet mount kits for all of the the recent Nikons including 
> the Coolscan V. Go to www.scanscience.com for a list of wet mount kits 
> made for various dedicated film scanners, wet mounts can be used with 
> any flatbed scanners designed to work with film.

Yes, it's easy to wet mount film on any flatbed scanner, assuming you 
can get a glass plate suspended at the ideal height to mount to.  The 
Coolscan V, though, is another matter, as the glass plate that fit's in 
the mounted slide holder (which is Scan Science's work flow) isn't much 
wider than the film itself, and wet mounting works best with some glass 
area all around the negative, as this gives the cover mylar a place to 
be adhered to the glass with the scanning fluid.  It's this adherence 
that keeps the mylar flat, which in turn keeps the  negative flat.  If 
the negatives have any curl, it will be extremely hard to keep them 
wet-mounted with that small glass area. I know, as I have the same plate 
that Scan Science uses, which can be sourced directly from Mike Sparks 
at Focal Point in Florida.  In addition, this extremely small clearance 
on the side might allow scanning fluid to drip or evaporate into the 
scanner, which wouldn't be good.  Finally, the Scan Science kit is very 
expensive, and it includes lots of unnecessary things.

So, my suggestion for anyone wanting to wet-mount on a flat bed is to 
get a piece of optical glass.  Get the supplies from Prazio, including 
their Mounting Oil (which isn't really an oil), scanner wipes, mylar, 
scanning tape and film cleaner.  Prazio is less expensive than the 
comparable Kami outfit from Aztek, and the Prazio fluid is a little more 
viscous than Kami and works better with mounting on a flatbed.  Mount 
the film to the bottom of the glass.  Use tape spacers in each corner of 
the glass to raise it above the scanning bed. Do test scans to find the 
ideal height.  And there you go.

For a dedicated film scanner, I recommend the Coolscan V with the FH-3 
carrier and mounted slide adapter for scanning strips of negatives.  For 
BW negatives, I really prefer Vuescan Pro to the Nikon Scanning 
software, but start with the Nikon software as it comes with the 
scanner.  Vuescan, for example, let's you pick which color channel to 
use to make the greyscale file from.  With my scanner, the green channel 
generally gives the best results.  This system will work great with 
fine-grained negatives.  If the user finds that the grain of grainer 
negatives is accentuated too much, then he or she could investigate wet 
mounting, or having that negative scanned on a good drum scanner or 
professional flatbed, such as the Cezanne or Kodak Eversmart Pro.  
Alternatively, one can investigate various noise reduction strategies, 
such as edge masks, Noise Ninja, Neat Image...

For color slides, I highly recommend getting color targets from Wolf 
Faust and making custom ICC profiles for each of the film types that 
you'll scan.  This is by far the best way to maximize color fidelity to 
the original slide.

As you can see, there's a lot involved in doing good scans, but once you 
get it down, it's not so bad.

Hutch Color has a great PDF on scanning in their info section.

-Peter

Thanks Peter, that was very informative.

Any one else out there have any recommendations on the ideal dedicated film scanner for 
B&W 35mm negs... please see my original post.

Randy


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Peter De Smidt <pdesmidt@...> 
wrote:

>
> > There are wet mount kits for all of the the recent Nikons including 
> > the Coolscan V. Go to www.scanscience.com for a list of wet mount kits 
> > made for various dedicated film scanners, wet mounts can be used with 
> > any flatbed scanners designed to work with film.
> 
> Yes, it's easy to wet mount film on any flatbed scanner, assuming you 
> can get a glass plate suspended at the ideal height to mount to.  The 
> Coolscan V, though, is another matter, as the glass plate that fit's in 
> the mounted slide holder (which is Scan Science's work flow) isn't much 
> wider than the film itself, and wet mounting works best with some glass 
> area all around the negative, as this gives the cover mylar a place to 
> be adhered to the glass with the scanning fluid.  It's this adherence 
> that keeps the mylar flat, which in turn keeps the  negative flat.  If 
> the negatives have any curl, it will be extremely hard to keep them 
> wet-mounted with that small glass area. I know, as I have the same plate 
> that Scan Science uses, which can be sourced directly from Mike Sparks 
> at Focal Point in Florida.  In addition, this extremely small clearance 
> on the side might allow scanning fluid to drip or evaporate into the 
> scanner, which wouldn't be good.  Finally, the Scan Science kit is very 
> expensive, and it includes lots of unnecessary things.
> 
> So, my suggestion for anyone wanting to wet-mount on a flat bed is to 
> get a piece of optical glass.  Get the supplies from Prazio, including 
> their Mounting Oil (which isn't really an oil), scanner wipes, mylar, 
> scanning tape and film cleaner.  Prazio is less expensive than the 
> comparable Kami outfit from Aztek, and the Prazio fluid is a little more 
> viscous than Kami and works better with mounting on a flatbed.  Mount 
> the film to the bottom of the glass.  Use tape spacers in each corner of 
> the glass to raise it above the scanning bed. Do test scans to find the 
> ideal height.  And there you go.
> 
> For a dedicated film scanner, I recommend the Coolscan V with the FH-3 
> carrier and mounted slide adapter for scanning strips of negatives.  For 
> BW negatives, I really prefer Vuescan Pro to the Nikon Scanning 
> software, but start with the Nikon software as it comes with the 
> scanner.  Vuescan, for example, let's you pick which color channel to 
> use to make the greyscale file from.  With my scanner, the green channel 
> generally gives the best results.  This system will work great with 
> fine-grained negatives.  If the user finds that the grain of grainer 
> negatives is accentuated too much, then he or she could investigate wet 
> mounting, or having that negative scanned on a good drum scanner or 
> professional flatbed, such as the Cezanne or Kodak Eversmart Pro.  
> Alternatively, one can investigate various noise reduction strategies, 
> such as edge masks, Noise Ninja, Neat Image...
> 
> For color slides, I highly recommend getting color targets from Wolf 
> Faust and making custom ICC profiles for each of the film types that 
> you'll scan.  This is by far the best way to maximize color fidelity to 
> the original slide.
> 
> As you can see, there's a lot involved in doing good scans, but once you 
> get it down, it's not so bad.
> 
> Hutch Color has a great PDF on scanning in their info section.
> 
> -Peter
>

Randy Rancier wrote:
> Thanks Peter, that was very informative.
> 
> Any one else out there have any recommendations on the ideal dedicated film scanner for 
> B&W 35mm negs... please see my original post.
> 
> Randy

While I have been one of first to explore wet mount scanning 
on desktop models I do not see a good reason to use that 
method for 35 mm scanning. I only use it with some difficult 
negatives: bad surfaces etc. The frame area is small enough 
to get plane even in the Nikon 8000 that has little DOF in 
the optical system.

The Minolta DiMAGE Scan Elite 5400 must still be available 
secondhand and is considered one of the best. It has a 
Scanhancer like diffuser for grain suppression included. I'm 
using a Nikon 8000 MF scanner for my 35mm scans so have no 
direct experience with the Minolta.

-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,Ernst


|  Dinkla Grafische Techniek  |
|     www.pigment-print.com    |
|             ( unvollendet )            |

Oh, I very strongly recommend Vuescan Pro. 

 

For one, you can scan in RAW mode, then play over and over with different
settings without having to rescan the film. 

 

For another, (I don't know if Nikon Scan lets you do this), if you are a
stickler and need to deal with film curl, you can scan two or more times
with the focus point of the scanner placed at different points on the curled
film, then blend them in CS4's new auto blend for depth of field tool. 

 

For a third, I find that if you have a Coolscan or other scanner with
infrared capability, Vuescan does a very good job with cleaning dust and
scratches without blurring the result. Infrared cleaning works on BW negs,
which I understand the Nikon Scan software's tool (I forget what it is
called) does not.

 

Vuescan Pro doesn't cost much, just $89 for a lifetime of updates.

 

  - susan 

 

..For 
BW negatives, I really prefer Vuescan Pro to the Nikon Scanning 
software, but start with the Nikon software as it comes with the 
scanner. Vuescan, for example, let's you pick which color channel to 
use to make the greyscale file from. With my scanner, the green channel 
generally gives the best results...



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Susan Chapin wrote:

> 
> For another, (I don't know if Nikon Scan lets you do 
> this), if you are a stickler and need to deal with film 
> curl, you can scan two or more times with the focus point
>  of the scanner placed at different points on the curled
>  film, then blend them in CS4's new auto blend for depth 
> of field tool.

While I share the positive experience of Vuescan I would
never compromise a scan with a method like that. If it curls
get it flat with for example wet mounting.

NikonScan allows manually selected focus points and non-AF
in scans so it could do the same job. At least NikonScan for
the 8000.


-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst


|  Dinkla Grafische Techniek  |
|     www.pigment-print.com    |
|             ( unvollendet )            |

I've been using a Minolta DS 5400 (first version) for four years, with 
consistent, very satisfying results. I have not experienced issues 
regarding film flatness in regard to the resulting scans; whether this 
can be attributed to the negative holders, depth-of-focus of the 
optics, I'm not certain. No major hiccups with any emulsion I've put 
through it thus far.


- Barrett

I've used a Minolta Dimage Pro Multiscan for about four years, and  
still think
it's the best film scanner around - in it's class. The problem is  
that it's no longer
made, and parts will probably be difficult to find, when that  
eventuality arrives.

In the meantime, it delivers wonderful scans, from 35mm to 6X9, and  
the reason for
overall sharpness, even without using the selective focus points, is  
most
certainly the negative holders. I use the Minolta software, but Viewscan
works very well with it, as well.

I agree with other writers, that getting the film flat is both  
essential and
less time consuming than multiple scans at different focus points  
would be.
It might require some creative changes in a negative holder, but hey -
photographers are supposed to be a creative group, aren't we?

Clay Price

  "Barrett Benton" wrote:
I've been using a Minolta DS 5400 (first version) for four years, with
consistent, very satisfying results. I have not experienced issues
regarding film flatness in regard to the resulting scans; whether this
can be attributed to the negative holders, depth-of-focus of the
optics, I'm not certain. No major hiccups with any emulsion I've put
through it thus far.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Much Thanks to everyone for your comments concerning my original post 
on this topic!

Sounds like the dedicated film scanners from Nikon, Minolta, and Canon 
are all very good and have positive attibutes.  I will most likely be 
using it with Vuescan Pro as I already use this program with my flatbed 
scanner.

Is it true what Susan said, that with Vuescan Pro you can us the 
infared dust and scratch removal systems with scanners using B&W film?

Randy

> Is it true what Susan said, that with Vuescan Pro you can us the
> infared dust and scratch removal systems with scanners using B&W film?
Only with chromogenic bw films,  e.g. XP-2 Super and the like.  The 
problem is that like dust silver tends to block ir light, and so systems 
like Digital Ice don't do well with bw films where the image is made up 
of silver halide.  But it's always worth a try.  With Vuescan, you can 
get at all of the color channels, including the IR channel, and perhaps 
by blending these the right way in Photoshop you can minimize dust.

To take this thread in another direction, does anyone out there have a 
Multi Pro that they would be willing to part with.  If so, you can 
reach me at Randy_Rancier2004@....

I've also considered the Multi Pro, since I've read great things about 
and it can do 2 1/4 as well.  Also, heard it is easier to use 35mm wet 
mounts with, since you have more space on the sides for the mylar.
Thanks,
Randy