Digital BW, The Print

Hi all,

I think I want to go to black-only on my R1800. I've read a lot of the
material on Paul Roark's site (thank you, Paul), but could use some
gentle prodding in helping me decide which direction to go. 

It sounds like 3-MK with Eboni inks would be right for me because I do
sometimes like to print color too. Only I prefer to print color on
glossy/luster paper, which means I would have to swap out PK for GL
sometimes. Is that particularly painful or expensive? If so, I might
just consider going for the Eboni 6 option and giving up on color.

What I really want to know is how much of a headache I'm likely to be
creating for myself. I've had some frustration with this printer in
the past and know that if this conversion tends to involve a lot of
fiddling and trouble shooting, I'll probably end up giving up in disgust.

Some points that probably make a difference: My R1800 is a few years
old but has had only light use (about 4 sets of carts). I am a
sporadic printer, so the printer will sometimes be dormant for lengthy
periods. Does that make going to a CIS a bad idea?

Last question for now: suppose I choose to go with Eboni 6 and decide
I'd like to do glossy prints by including glop. Is this considered to
be a viable option now? I notice on your site, Paul, that you were
experimenting with this.

*Any* advice from R1800 users welcome!

Thanks,
Murray

On 22/01/2009 Murray wrote:
> I am a
> sporadic printer, so the printer will sometimes be dormant for lengthy
> periods. Does that make going to a CIS a bad idea?

In my experience of CIS-equipped printers using G4 colour pigments and 
Cone piezo, intermittemt use is disastrous. Both printers were OK when new 
with no more than the usual Epson intermittent clogs when I was printing 
frequently, but dwindling client requirements for prints meant that 
sometimes I wouldn't use them for 2-3months. That's when the trouble started.

Pigment tends to precipitate out in the ink lines and feeder cart if left 
several months, causing terminal clogs when eventually used. In the case 
of a 1290 (G4 inks) I replaced a head because of this : it wasn't the 
nozzles that got blocked but the microfilters under the spigots that 
clogged. Ink then couldn't get as far as the nozzles, and backflushing 
with a syringe failed to clear the filters.

Another issue is that the lines can develop air bubbles and dry out. This 
requires dismantling of the CIS, cleaning and re-priming. Hours of messy 
fun :(

I eventually dumped both printers and CIS after spending literally days 
cleaning out the CIS and unsuccessfully trying to clear clogs.

Both were enormously frustrating. Whenever I did need to print it was 
against deadlines and they became reliably troublesome. As much ink was 
wasted in cleaning cycles as ever produced prints.

I now use an HP B9180 which is more tolerant of paper types (G4 & Piezo 
were matt only), has no issues with being left unused for a couple of 
months and then just works without even needing a nozzle check. The 
automatic daily nozzle maintenance uses minimal ink.

-- 
Regards

Tony Sleep
http://tonysleep.co.uk

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Murray" 
<mrm@...> wrote:
>
> 
> What I really want to know is how much of a headache I'm likely to 
be
> creating for myself. I've had some frustration with this printer in
> the past and know that if this conversion tends to involve a lot of
> fiddling and trouble shooting, I'll probably end up giving up in 
disgust.
> 
>
Having now been through an entire set of MIS BOTTLES (yes bottles, 
not cartridges) without yet getting a satisfactory print, I would 
advise not to go down this route. 

Banding, clogs, airlocks and leaks. Fix one problem, another starts. 
I do not think that the R1800 and MIS inks are a good proposition. 
Apparently the 1400 is a better bet but I have no experience with 
this combo.

I feel one of the big issues is getting a reliable method of 
delivering the ink. Refillable 3rd party cartridges are probably the 
way  to go. Put them in and never take them out - refill in situ. But 
there are so many different types available and so much quality 
variation that it is just the luck of the draw. 

The second big issue is that the R1800 inks band. 

I have so much time and heartache invested in this now I will 
continue and try to get it right but if I knew when I embarked what I 
know now, I would never have started. My latest problem is that ink 
is dribbling out the bottom of the heads. 

I am currently trying out 3mk plus one 4k-pk plus two GLOP plus a 
second pass of GLOP. This is one of Paul's curves and it certainly 
looks to have the potential to deliver a good print if the ink and 
delivery issues can be resolved. But if I ever get there it will have 
been a very hard fought battle!

I have an R1800 and am printing BO using Paul's 3MK method. The color
positions contain MIS cleaning fluid, so I am not doing color. I
refill the Eboni carts using the MIS spongeless carts, and refill the
OEM color carts with the MIS OEM Refill Kit.

But yesterday I printed some 5x7's using Moab Lasal paper and was very
pleased with the results. These were from scans of some 35mm Ilford
FP4+ film. I do a nozzle check every couple of days, just to keep
things "loosened up". I do sometimes get some bad nozzle checks,, and
banding, if I let it sit for several days.

Your situation is a little different because you want to retain the
ability to make color prints - but so far so good for me. I'll keep my
fingers crossed!

Paul

I bought an R1800 specifically for 3MK printing plus the possibility  
of color.

I use MIS refillable, spongeless cartridges and MIS pigment inks for  
the 1800.

I have had very good results with the 3-matte-black (Eboni) printing.   
The tone might be a bit warm for some people, but I like it,  
especially on Lasal, Kayenta and similar bright white papers.

I normally stick with matte paper for color as well, but it is no big  
thing to switch the black cartridges.  I usually drop a little of the  
MIS clear base on the cartridge opening and valve at the bottom just  
before putting it in the printer. This seems to reduce the likelihood  
of an air bubble causing trouble.

My R1800 has two annoying problems (and has always been like this):

1) The paper feed is really finicky.  It often takes two or three  
tries to get the paper to feed, even from the normal auto-feed slot.   
Some people seem to have this problem while others don't.

2) MIS color inks tend to clog the heads (mildly!!!) if the printer  
isn't used for a few days.  This is much more pronounced than with the  
2200 or the C84/86/88 printers. Usually one cleaning cycle will get  
everything going, but it is an annoyance not to be able to rely on the  
printer without first testing it.  The 3 Eboni black cartridges never  
seem to give me any trouble... just the color ones.

When I *do* print color glossy with the 1800, I just don't fret about  
"gloss differential", glop, etc.  If I think someone is going to  
decide that viewing the image at 80 degrees away from perpendicular is  
the only way to go, I use some kind of spray.

More commonly, though, when I want a glossy surface, or the increased  
dMax of a glossy print, I use my ordinary matte paper, let the print  
dry well for a couple days, and then laminate it.

Bottom line:   The R1800 produces very nice carbon-black-only prints  
and can produce fairly decent color prints (not as subtle as a printer  
with more color cartridges), but the paper transport mechanism is not  
Epson's best design, and the heads tend to be a bit more subject to  
minor clogging than some other Epson printers.

I have never used the 1400, so cannot comment on its problems or lack  
of them.

My Epson 4880 is vastly more reliable...  as well as expensive, heavy,  
and incapable of 3MK printing...

Myron

Murray,

FYI

According to MIS the Eboni  6 inks have been discontinued. Paul R. says he
is working on an alternative combination. 

Gary Wagner

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Murray
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 2:38 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Advice for going BO on an 1800

 

Hi all,

I think I want to go to black-only on my R1800. I've read a lot of the
material on Paul Roark's site (thank you, Paul), but could use some
gentle prodding in helping me decide which direction to go. 

It sounds like 3-MK with Eboni inks would be right for me because I do
sometimes like to print color too. Only I prefer to print color on
glossy/luster paper, which means I would have to swap out PK for GL
sometimes. Is that particularly painful or expensive? If so, I might
just consider going for the Eboni 6 option and giving up on color.

What I really want to know is how much of a headache I'm likely to be
creating for myself. I've had some frustration with this printer in
the past and know that if this conversion tends to involve a lot of
fiddling and trouble shooting, I'll probably end up giving up in disgust.

Some points that probably make a difference: My R1800 is a few years
old but has had only light use (about 4 sets of carts). I am a
sporadic printer, so the printer will sometimes be dormant for lengthy
periods. Does that make going to a CIS a bad idea?

Last question for now: suppose I choose to go with Eboni 6 and decide
I'd like to do glossy prints by including glop. Is this considered to
be a viable option now? I notice on your site, Paul, that you were
experimenting with this.

*Any* advice from R1800 users welcome!

Thanks,
Murray

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Murray" 
<mrm@...> wrote:
>
> 
> Last question for now: suppose I choose to go with Eboni 6 and 
decide
> I'd like to do glossy prints by including glop. Is this considered 
to
> be a viable option now? I notice on your site, Paul, that you were
> experimenting with this.
> 
> *Any* advice from R1800 users welcome!
> 
> Thanks,
> Murray
>

Murray, after my initial negative feedback to your question, I have 
invested a some more time in my R1800 setup and can now report that I 
have got a good 3mk print and have resolved the cartridge leaking 
problem. I am thrilled to get a relatively smooth neutral BW print 
with absolutely no color artifacts. Now, bathed in the afterglow of 
triumph the memories of despair and frustration have faded and I am 
inclined to feel it has been worth it. 

I have also printed a couple of gloss prints using Pauls 3mk 1pk 2GO 
curve for Ilford Silk Fibre. This is also a very neutral pure carbon 
(plus GO) print with no color artifacts whatsoever. 

I would like to make the print a little smoother as well as 
developing a warm version using more PK and/or some dilutions of MK 
and/or PK and to this end look forward to the availability of a 
suitable base.

So I am inclined to persist with this set-up as its advantages are 
not available elsewhere (other than of course the 1400).

However do not expect the path to be smooth. There are problems to 
overcome when setting these printers up in a way that their 
manufacturer did not intend. Many of these problems you will have to 
resolve yourself and you will initially consume a lot of ink and 
paper getting it all settled down and dialled in.

But help is at hand on this forum and you also have the wonderful 
benefit of Paul Roark's development work. 

Best of luck,

Alistair

Thank you Alistair and everyone for your helpful input.

Clearly embarking on this adventure without expecting some
difficulties is would be naive. It sounds like CIS is not a wise
direction for me, but I think I will try 3-MK using cartridges.

Murray