Digital BW, The Print

As a newby to the group am wondering how many use Apple Aperture 2.0 and Nik software 
such as Silver Efex Pro to produce BW.

On Feb 5, 2009, at 12:16 PM, chocolabdad wrote:

> As a newby to the group am wondering how many use Apple Aperture 2.0  
> and Nik software
> such as Silver Efex Pro to produce BW.

Everyone I know experimented with both Aperture and Lightroom as the  
two became available. At this point in time my catalog, and that of  
all the photographers I work with, are in Lightroom. I haven't done a  
broad survey, but of the dozens of people I deal with, in several  
countries, Lightroom has, for now, won the battle. Lightroom for  
printing is a bit limited, however. I was hoping 2.0 would solve the  
printing issues, and while it has many excellent improvements, it  
still lacks some important printing functions, especially for color.  
But it is possible to print good B&W out of Lightroom, not in the  
sense of special quadtone B&W inks, etc, but in terms of using the  
native inks in a good multi-gray printer, with custom profiles, and  
getting neutral or tinted black and white prints.

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
CDTobie@...


  ----------



Datacolor
www.datacolor.com/Spyder3




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

David, thanks. Am really wondering if there are any Aperture/Nik/Epson OEM ink users in 
this group. I do not like the results I am getting using Epson inks in my 2200. Am looking 
for more information before taking the plunge into converting this 2200 into a black ink  
only printer.
CEC



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, C D Tobie <CDTobie@...> wrote:

>
> 
> On Feb 5, 2009, at 12:16 PM, chocolabdad wrote:
> 
> > As a newby to the group am wondering how many use Apple Aperture 2.0  
> > and Nik software
> > such as Silver Efex Pro to produce BW.
> 
> Everyone I know experimented with both Aperture and Lightroom as the  
> two became available. At this point in time my catalog, and that of  
> all the photographers I work with, are in Lightroom. I haven't done a  
> broad survey, but of the dozens of people I deal with, in several  
> countries, Lightroom has, for now, won the battle. Lightroom for  
> printing is a bit limited, however. I was hoping 2.0 would solve the  
> printing issues, and while it has many excellent improvements, it  
> still lacks some important printing functions, especially for color.  
> But it is possible to print good B&W out of Lightroom, not in the  
> sense of special quadtone B&W inks, etc, but in terms of using the  
> native inks in a good multi-gray printer, with custom profiles, and  
> getting neutral or tinted black and white prints.
> 
> C. David Tobie
> Global Product Technology Manager
> Digital Imaging & Home Theater
> CDTobie@...
> 
> 
>   ----------
> 
> 
> 
> Datacolor
> www.datacolor.com/Spyder3
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

The 2200 produces all light grays entirely from saturated color inks;  
not a recipe for low metamerism, gallery quality B&W. I think you'll  
have to move up at least to a 2400, or else roll up your sleeves and  
start playing the dedicated grayscale ink game.

C. D. Tobie
Global Product Technology Mngr.
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
Datacolor.com
CDTobie@...

On Feb 5, 2009, at 5:59 PM, "chocolabdad" <chas3@...> wrote:

> David, thanks. Am really wondering if there are any Aperture/Nik/ 
> Epson OEM ink users in
> this group. I do not like the results I am getting using Epson inks  
> in my 2200. Am looking
> for more information before taking the plunge into converting this  
> 2200 into a black ink
> only printer.
> CEC
>
>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, C D Tobie  
> <CDTobie@...> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Feb 5, 2009, at 12:16 PM, chocolabdad wrote:
>>
>>> As a newby to the group am wondering how many use Apple Aperture 2.0
>>> and Nik software
>>> such as Silver Efex Pro to produce BW.
>>
>> Everyone I know experimented with both Aperture and Lightroom as the
>> two became available. At this point in time my catalog, and that of
>> all the photographers I work with, are in Lightroom. I haven't done a
>> broad survey, but of the dozens of people I deal with, in several
>> countries, Lightroom has, for now, won the battle. Lightroom for
>> printing is a bit limited, however. I was hoping 2.0 would solve the
>> printing issues, and while it has many excellent improvements, it
>> still lacks some important printing functions, especially for color.
>> But it is possible to print good B&W out of Lightroom, not in the
>> sense of special quadtone B&W inks, etc, but in terms of using the
>> native inks in a good multi-gray printer, with custom profiles, and
>> getting neutral or tinted black and white prints.
>>
>> C. David Tobie
>> Global Product Technology Manager
>> Digital Imaging & Home Theater
>> CDTobie@...
>>
>>
>>  ----------
>>
>>
>>
>> Datacolor
>> www.datacolor.com/Spyder3
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other  
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish  
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting  
> this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages  
> to keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or  
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed  
> from the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital  
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be  
> removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and  
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group  
> Owner and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in  
> the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE  
> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNE 
> R” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL  
> NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL,  
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DA 
> MAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE L 
> OSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW,  
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH D 
> AMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIG 
> ITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTER 
> ATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF  
> ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) AN 
> Y OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

By the way (in reference to your username) I have been surrogate dad  
to labs of multiple colors over the years, though I'm currently  
dealing with a standard poodle, who thinks he's a very tall labrador  
with a perm. The only connection to this list
is that he's black (blue, technically, but this just black with a  
lower D-max), and an inkblob in most photo prints.

C. D. Tobie
Global Product Technology Mngr.
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
Datacolor.com
CDTobie@...

On Feb 5, 2009, at 5:59 PM, "chocolabdad" <chas3@...> wrote:

> David, thanks. Am really wondering if there are any Aperture/Nik/ 
> Epson OEM ink users in
> this group. I do not like the results I am getting using Epson inks  
> in my 2200. Am looking
> for more information before taking the plunge into converting this  
> 2200 into a black ink
> only printer.
> CEC
>
>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, C D Tobie  
> <CDTobie@...> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Feb 5, 2009, at 12:16 PM, chocolabdad wrote:
>>
>>> As a newby to the group am wondering how many use Apple Aperture 2.0
>>> and Nik software
>>> such as Silver Efex Pro to produce BW.
>>
>> Everyone I know experimented with both Aperture and Lightroom as the
>> two became available. At this point in time my catalog, and that of
>> all the photographers I work with, are in Lightroom. I haven't done a
>> broad survey, but of the dozens of people I deal with, in several
>> countries, Lightroom has, for now, won the battle. Lightroom for
>> printing is a bit limited, however. I was hoping 2.0 would solve the
>> printing issues, and while it has many excellent improvements, it
>> still lacks some important printing functions, especially for color.
>> But it is possible to print good B&W out of Lightroom, not in the
>> sense of special quadtone B&W inks, etc, but in terms of using the
>> native inks in a good multi-gray printer, with custom profiles, and
>> getting neutral or tinted black and white prints.
>>
>> C. David Tobie
>> Global Product Technology Manager
>> Digital Imaging & Home Theater
>> CDTobie@...
>>
>>
>>  ----------
>>
>>
>>
>> Datacolor
>> www.datacolor.com/Spyder3
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other  
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish  
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting  
> this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages  
> to keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or  
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed  
> from the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital  
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be  
> removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and  
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group  
> Owner and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in  
> the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE  
> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNE 
> R” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL  
> NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL,  
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DA 
> MAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE L 
> OSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW,  
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH D 
> AMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIG 
> ITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTER 
> ATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF  
> ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) AN 
> Y OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

C.D., thank you so much. That is what I want to know. Spending hours  
upon hours fussing with grayscale inks seems sort of wasteful to me.

CEC



On Feb 5, 2009, at 5:46 PM, Cdtobie wrote:

> The 2200 produces all light grays entirely from saturated color inks;
> not a recipe for low metamerism, gallery quality B&W. I think you'll
> have to move up at least to a 2400, or else roll up your sleeves and
> start playing the dedicated grayscale ink game.
>
> C. D. Tobie


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

C.D., yes, I am a dog lover from way back. My 15 year old Chocolate  
Lab rules. We walk every day as far as we can. Old age setting in.  
Standard Poodles are absolutely tops. They are so smart.

C


On Feb 5, 2009, at 6:00 PM, Cdtobie wrote:

> By the way (in reference to your username) I have been surrogate dad
> to labs of multiple colors over the years, though I'm currently
> dealing with a standard poodle, who thinks he's a very tall labrador
> with a perm. The only connection to this list
> is that he's black (blue, technically, but this just black with a
> lower D-max), and an inkblob in most photo prints.
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Feb 5, 2009, at 11:54 PM, Charles Carstensen wrote:

> C.D., thank you so much. That is what I want to know. Spending hours
> upon hours fussing with grayscale inks seems sort of wasteful to me.

Then you may be on the wrong list, as fussing with grayscale inks  
seems to be the hobby of many of the people on this list; to the point  
where I sometimes wonder if its the prints, or the fussing, thats the  
main thing for some of them.

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
CDTobie@...


  ----------



Datacolor
www.datacolor.com/Spyder3




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Feb 6, 2009, at 12:00 AM, Charles Carstensen wrote:

> C.D., yes, I am a dog lover from way back. My 15 year old Chocolate
> Lab rules. We walk every day as far as we can. Old age setting in.
> Standard Poodles are absolutely tops. They are so smart.

Too smart, much of the time. But not smart enough to refuse our two  
mile walk this morning at below zero (F) temperatures. I wish my  
cameras worked as well in the cold as my poodle does... I seldom even  
take a camera with us on morning walks when its this cold. Then, of  
course, I miss some fantastic frost shot, or a fencerow in the snow...  
or something else that would challenge the highlight detail of my  
printers (see, I did get printers in there, eventually. <G>)

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
CDTobie@...


  ----------



Datacolor
www.datacolor.com/Spyder3




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

By contrast (see, there's a photo term :  ), I sat out on my deck  
yesterday afternoon. Beautiful. Low 70s, I think.

James

On Feb 6, 2009, at 9:00 AM, C D Tobie <CDTobie@...> wrote:

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, C D Tobie 
<CDTobie@...> wrote:
>
> Then you may be on the wrong list, as fussing with grayscale inks  
> seems to be the hobby of many of the people on this list; to the 
point  
> where I sometimes wonder if its the prints, or the fussing, thats 
the  
> main thing for some of them.
> 

And many of us have bought one or your fussy little devices to do so, 
so don't knock it too much.

Agree, Thanks very much for your kind help. Goodby.

CEC

If, rather than buying a salesman's word (Tobie's), you actually visit
top tier museums galleries (as opposed to hobbiest koffee klatches)
you'll find that Epson OEM Ultrachrome B&W prints are more common than
dedicated B&W inkset prints. Real galleries often specify type of ink,
so you can confirm that if you care.

It's true that 2400 is easier to work with than 2200, and I've
recently moved to 3800 so I can use glossy paper, but 2200 is
magnificent for B&W on matte paper.

On Feb 6, 2009, at 10:49 AM, hp9180profile wrote:

> And many of us have bought one or your fussy little devices to do so,
> so don't knock it too much.

I'm not knocking it, I'm describing it. "Under the hood" is very much  
what this list is about. People who like to get under the hood, tend  
to have a very large tool cabinet, which may indeed have one or two or  
our fussy little tools in it. The movie "The World's Fastest Indian"  
made me think of the people on this list more than once; like when he  
was describing the mix of different automobile pistons he found to  
produce the best blend for casting his own motorcycle piston heads.

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
CDTobie@...


  ----------



Datacolor
www.datacolor.com/Spyder3




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Feb 6, 2009, at 11:08 AM, djon43 wrote:

> If, rather than buying a salesman's word (Tobie's),

Developer, actually, but a zealous one... <G>

> you actually visit
> top tier museums galleries (as opposed to hobbiest koffee klatches)
> you'll find that Epson OEM Ultrachrome B&W prints are more common than
> dedicated B&W inkset prints.

That does not in any way conflict with what I was saying; quite the  
opposite. Moving up to a 2400 or beyond would allow for a pretty  
reasonable B&W print, from a printer that would also print color.  
Attempting to get gallery quality B&W out of a 2200 would really  
require a dedicated inkset. I think you would find most of the  
regulars on this list to think of my bias as being in the other  
direction; towards using the OEM multiple gray inksets (which can be  
directly profiled with the products I develop) over specialty gray  
inks and specialty drivers (which can utilize our tools as well, but  
not as directly). The fact is I find it all intriguing, but have more  
excuse to deal with the stuff for which I develop products.

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
CDTobie@...


  ----------



Datacolor
www.datacolor.com/Spyder3




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

...
> Real galleries often specify type of ink, ...

> Attempting to get gallery quality B&W out of a 2200 would really  
> require a dedicated inkset...

And if you combine those 2 thoughts with my desire to hold down costs, 
you can see rather clearly where I'm going.  OEM (like HP neutral gray) 
pigs on our old Epson printers for cheap.

(I did once have custom pistons made -- for a Panhard aluminum, air 
cooled flat twin. The more things change ...)

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

On Feb 6, 2009, at 11:04 AM, C D Tobie wrote:

>  The movie "The World's Fastest Indian"
>



a wonderfully enjoyable movie.  Much more fun than arguing about  
inksets  :  )  That said, the best printers I've seen are not using  
Epson OEM inks.  Or serving coffee.

James

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Feb 6, 2009, at 12:47 PM, pr_roark wrote:

> I did once have custom pistons made -

I was definitely trying to describe you, but didn't realize how  
literally I was doing it! ; )

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
CDTobie@...


  ----------



Datacolor
www.datacolor.com/Spyder3




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

An interesting topic. Trying to delve into the psychological profiles
of hardcase dedicated inkseters who want it all- and now. Wanting
more,better,cheaper and sooner seem to be common traits ;) 
More interesting yet is that those turned out to be achievable aims. 

Duane

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, C D Tobie
<CDTobie@...> wrote:

>
> 
> On Feb 6, 2009, at 12:47 PM, pr_roark wrote:
> 
> > I did once have custom pistons made -
> 
> I was definitely trying to describe you, but didn't realize how  
> literally I was doing it! ; )
> 
> C. David Tobie
> Global Product Technology Manager
> Digital Imaging & Home Theater
> CDTobie@...
> 
> 
>   ----------
> 
> 
> 
> Datacolor
> www.datacolor.com/Spyder3
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, C D Tobie 
<CDTobie@...> wrote:
>
> 
> our fussy little tools in it. The movie "The World's Fastest Indian"  
> made me think of the people on this list more than once; like when 
he  
> was describing the mix of different automobile pistons he found to  
> produce the best blend for casting his own motorcycle piston heads.
> 
> C. David Tobie

Well, you are not far off the mark there David. As an expat Kiwi I grew 
up not too far away from Bert Monroe and while I never met him was 
aware of his adventures.

Incidently, and funnily enough, in my youth I purchased a very tired 
old Aston DB4 off Roger Donaldson who directed "The World's Fastest 
Indian". I think that thing must have had a set of Bert's old pistons 
in it.

And Roger is also a very fine photographer BTW. A year or so ago I was 
back in Auckland, and visited a gallery in the west of the city where 
Roger was holding a retrospective, all BW from the 60's, 70's and 80's. 
And to bring this back OT, I do not know how the images were printed 
and do not really care but the images and the print quality were both 
superb.

My advice is to dump the 2200 printer. Sorry to say so but it has faulted b&w print 
technology. I still have mine and bought it for b&w but was never happy with the prints. It 
features bronzing and bad metermerism I'm afraid.  I even bought ImagePrint which 
improved the b&w prinrs no end. I would not go for a an expensive black ink change on 
such old technology, but instead say buy the 3800 which will produce beautiful b&w.
 Jules


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "chocolabdad" <chas3@...> 
wrote:
>
> David, thanks. Am really wondering if there are any Aperture/Nik/Epson OEM ink users 
in 
> this group. I do not like the results I am getting using Epson inks in my 2200. Am 
looking 

> for more information before taking the plunge into converting this 2200 into a black ink  
> only printer.
> CEC
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, C D Tobie <CDTobie@> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > On Feb 5, 2009, at 12:16 PM, chocolabdad wrote:
> > 
> > > As a newby to the group am wondering how many use Apple Aperture 2.0  
> > > and Nik software
> > > such as Silver Efex Pro to produce BW.
> > 
> > Everyone I know experimented with both Aperture and Lightroom as the  
> > two became available. At this point in time my catalog, and that of  
> > all the photographers I work with, are in Lightroom. I haven't done a  
> > broad survey, but of the dozens of people I deal with, in several  
> > countries, Lightroom has, for now, won the battle. Lightroom for  
> > printing is a bit limited, however. I was hoping 2.0 would solve the  
> > printing issues, and while it has many excellent improvements, it  
> > still lacks some important printing functions, especially for color.  
> > But it is possible to print good B&W out of Lightroom, not in the  
> > sense of special quadtone B&W inks, etc, but in terms of using the  
> > native inks in a good multi-gray printer, with custom profiles, and  
> > getting neutral or tinted black and white prints.
> > 
> > C. David Tobie
> > Global Product Technology Manager
> > Digital Imaging & Home Theater
> > CDTobie@
> > 
> > 
> >   ----------
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Datacolor
> > www.datacolor.com/Spyder3
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

I agree 100%
Jules

> 

> 
> Then you may be on the wrong list, as fussing with grayscale inks  
> seems to be the hobby of many of the people on this list; to the point  
> where I sometimes wonder if its the prints, or the fussing, thats the  
> main thing for some of them.
> 
> C. David Tobie
> Global Product Technology Manager
> Digital Imaging & Home Theater
> CDTobie@...
> 
> 
>   ----------
> 
> 
> 
> Datacolor
> www.datacolor.com/Spyder3
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

On Feb 6, 2009, at 5:29 PM, hp9180profile wrote:

> And Roger is also a very fine photographer BTW. A year or so ago I was
> back in Auckland, and visited a gallery in the west of the city where
> Roger was holding a retrospective, all BW from the 60's, 70's and  
> 80's.
> And to bring this back OT, I do not know how the images were printed
> and do not really care but the images and the print quality were both
> superb.

Yes, I've seen exhibits of photos from other filmmakers, and they do  
tend, not too suprisingly, to have an eye...

There is a nice little hotel (the Capital) less than a block down  
Basil St. from Harrod's in London that has a display of B&W photos in  
their bar by someone originally from that area who went on to some  
fame in Hollywood. He definately developed the eye first, and applied  
it to motion pictures afterwards.

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
CDTobie@...


  ----------



Datacolor
www.datacolor.com/Spyder3




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]