Digital BW, The Print

Paul, I read with much interest your Carbon 6 whitepaper, updated to 
include the HP-C6 variation. I just have one point I would like to 
clarify if I may. 

The main advantages of the HP PK over the MIS PK are twofold - its 
neutrality (perhaps even coolness) and its ability to print diluted on 
matt papers. Have I got that right or do other factors play here as 
well?

Thanks and regards

Alistair

Alistair wrote:
>
> Paul, I read with much interest your Carbon 6 whitepaper, updated 
to 
> include the HP-C6 variation. I just have one point I would like to 
> clarify if I may. 
> 
> The main advantages of the HP PK over the MIS PK are twofold 
> - its neutrality (perhaps even coolness) and 
> its ability to print diluted on matt papers.

Glossy and matte papers, as opposed to the matte only for the Eboni-
based carbon inksets.

> Have I got that right or do other factors play here as well?

It is easy to keep in suspension -- a defect with the Eboni-based 
inskets.  And, we at least have Wilhelm tests of the pigments 
themselves.  

The bar has been raised big time for B&W types since the large OEMs 
entered with at least fairly serious systems.  For the top end, I 
think I can defend third party 100% carbon, but I don't think I can 
defend third party color, which is used in neutral "carbon" 
printing.  Keep in mind that there are no problems for the vast 
majority of desktop  users, but I'm interested in challenging the 
best and with wide format.  Right now, I think the HP ink looks the 
most interesting for this segment, but I don't want to buy a Z3200 
for the volume of large prints I do. 

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

> It is easy to keep in suspension -- a defect with the Eboni-based 
> inksets.

I didn't know this.. does that mean we should agitate the cartridges
from time to time? I use refillable cartridges and a friend tells me
that their back and forth motion at start-up serves to agitate them. I
know that with CIS you can shake the bottles occasionally.

> And, we at least have Wilhelm tests of the pigments 
> themselves.  
> 
> The bar has been raised big time for B&W types since the large OEMs 
> entered with at least fairly serious systems.  For the top end, I 
> think I can defend third party 100% carbon, but I don't think I can 
> defend third party color, which is used in neutral "carbon" 
> printing.

I've been in touch with the National Register of Historic Places
lately, and sent them a few 3MK prints on Moab Lasal done on my R1800.
It's tough to keep a dialogue going, they're rather busy, but they do
seem interested. After studying Wilhelm's site, I see he approves of
the R1800 with K3 inks and has charts of expected life span which
would easily meet the Register's 75- year requirements. But doesn't
the K3 process, although carbon-based, still use some color pigment
inks, thus weakening their longevity over against pure carbon? (I
should add I'll probably switch over to a non-OBA paper soon, I'd like
to try that Premier Art you seem to use a lot.)

My basic thinking is that since carbon-based 3MK, with touches of
color pigment, easily meet Register standards then pure carbon should
be a no-brainer.

I wish there were some way to get the 3MK process on Wilhelm's charts.
Do you know how to reach him? I didn't see any contact information on
his website.

> Keep in mind that there are no problems for the vast 
> majority of desktop  users, but I'm interested in challenging the 
> best and with wide format.  Right now, I think the HP ink looks the 
> most interesting for this segment, but I don't want to buy a Z3200 
> for the volume of large prints I do. 

I'll be interested to see how your HP work develops. Perhaps that
process will eventually make Wilhelm's list.

Thank you!

Paul

Oops.. make this paragraph read "3K", not "3MK". Coffee hasn't kicked
in yet.

"My basic thinking is that since carbon-based 3MK, with touches of
color pigment, easily meet Register standards then pure carbon should
be a no-brainer."

"Paul Whiting" <paulmwhiting@...> wrote:

> > It is easy to keep in suspension -- a defect with the Eboni-based 
> > inksets.
> 
> I didn't know this...

Nor did I -- thus the centrifuge to, hopefully, not get caught this 
way again.  The range of Lab L changes in a 30 minute spin range from 
0.03 % (HP-C6 LK [30% dilution]) to 30% (guess -- choke).

> does that mean we should agitate the cartridges
> from time to time?

Yes.  In normal use, desktop printers keep the dilute Eboni (both 
Eboni-6 and Carbon-6) well suspended.  However, if the carts are 
sitting on a shelf, they should be agitated, probably weekly.

> I use refillable cartridges and a friend tells me
> that their back and forth motion at start-up serves 
> to agitate them.

Exactly.  It's the wide format printers that are the more likely 
problem area.  I do still have Eboni-6 in my 7500, but the carts 
require manual agitation.  In all my PDFs I stopped recommending 
these inksets for wide format as soon as I discovered the problem.

> I know that with CIS you can shake the bottles occasionally.

Yes, and the problem really didn't show up in the 2200 I had with 
Carbon-6 for 9 months.  I agitated the bottles occasionally, and the 
carts do have ink in them that gets agitated.  So, the fluctuations 
in density appear to get averaged out.

It does not appear that the "settlement" is causing significant 
agglomerations of Eboni, it just gets darker at the bottom and 
lighter at the top.

Note that I'm still a big fan of Eboni MK.  I probably will never be 
able to test it long enough, but I would not at all be surprised if 
it could beat the HP neutral grays in a fade test.  The HP PK and 
grays are, after all, blended carbon-colol pigment inks.  The things 
HP has done, however, that I was not able to do with third party 
inks, include using very lightfast colors, balancing the fade rates 
to avoid tonal shift (see a discussion of my early efforts at 
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/messag
e/58048), and advanced pigment suspension via a new coating that 
stops the different types of pigments from stratifying.  

So, it looks like we have a new and superior PKN.  But, I still 
believe a good carbon that can actually print neutral without color 
inks (i.e., Eboni with a 1.5 pl printer and not diluted) will be a 
better neutral matte inkset.  But, until Epson makes a 1.5 pl wide 
format printer, I need a more stable insket for the 7500 (I'm tired 
of picking up the 7500 and shaking it), and I think many will 
appreciate an advanced, neutral and affordable inkset for their 
Epsons. 

 

> 
> I've been in touch with the National Register of Historic Places
> lately, and sent them a few 3MK prints on Moab Lasal done on 
> my R1800. It's tough to keep a dialogue going, they're rather 
> busy, but they do seem interested.

Do they do their own testing?

> After studying Wilhelm's site, I see he approves of
> the R1800 with K3 ...

Do you have a URL for what you're looking at?  I assumed he just 
tested the 1800 with OEM color inks in it.

> ...doesn't
> the K3 process, although carbon-based, still use some color pigment
> inks, thus weakening their longevity over against pure carbon?

The 2400 3K B&W "ABW" mode prints definitely use color.  I don't know 
of a 3K 1800 approach aside from the 3-MK one using Eboni, and I know 
of no fade tests of that by any commercial testing group.

> My basic thinking is that since carbon-based 3MK, with touches of
> color pigment, easily meet Register standards then pure carbon 
> should be a no-brainer.

Yes.  I'm curious where the "3MK, with touches of color" is coming 
from.


> I wish there were some way to get the 3MK process on 
> Wilhelm's charts.

So do I.  I've never had any significant contact with him.  My 
impression is that his tests are just too expensive for little 
outfits like MIS.  (It's a shame the supplier hasn't picked up this 
ball -- hint.)
 
> I'll be interested to see how your HP work develops. Perhaps that
> process will eventually make Wilhelm's list.

While I am convinced Wilhelm is very reputable and a very good 
person, I don't think he's a charity.  It would be great if he'd do 
some "pro bono" work, but I've never seen any indication of this with 
respect to the inks we use. 

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Aardenberg's tests of Image Specialist inks in a few printers should
give some comfort regarding the fading of Eboni MK- unlike the color
inks it proved quite stable.

It is too bad MIS or Inkrepublic won't pick up the tab for Wilhelm's
tests, or for Epson to do it as they may have as part of a comparison
of third party dye inks and papers (which clearly discredited these
inferior products).


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark"
<pr_roark@...> wrote:

>
>  "Paul Whiting" <paulmwhiting@> wrote:
> 
> > > It is easy to keep in suspension -- a defect with the Eboni-based 
> > > inksets.
> > 
> > I didn't know this...
> 
> Nor did I -- thus the centrifuge to, hopefully, not get caught this 
> way again.  The range of Lab L changes in a 30 minute spin range from 
> 0.03 % (HP-C6 LK [30% dilution]) to 30% (guess -- choke).
> 
> > does that mean we should agitate the cartridges
> > from time to time?
> 
> Yes.  In normal use, desktop printers keep the dilute Eboni (both 
> Eboni-6 and Carbon-6) well suspended.  However, if the carts are 
> sitting on a shelf, they should be agitated, probably weekly.
> 
> > I use refillable cartridges and a friend tells me
> > that their back and forth motion at start-up serves 
> > to agitate them.
> 
> Exactly.  It's the wide format printers that are the more likely 
> problem area.  I do still have Eboni-6 in my 7500, but the carts 
> require manual agitation.  In all my PDFs I stopped recommending 
> these inksets for wide format as soon as I discovered the problem.
> 
> > I know that with CIS you can shake the bottles occasionally.
> 
> Yes, and the problem really didn't show up in the 2200 I had with 
> Carbon-6 for 9 months.  I agitated the bottles occasionally, and the 
> carts do have ink in them that gets agitated.  So, the fluctuations 
> in density appear to get averaged out.
> 
> It does not appear that the "settlement" is causing significant 
> agglomerations of Eboni, it just gets darker at the bottom and 
> lighter at the top.
> 
> Note that I'm still a big fan of Eboni MK.  I probably will never be 
> able to test it long enough, but I would not at all be surprised if 
> it could beat the HP neutral grays in a fade test.  The HP PK and 
> grays are, after all, blended carbon-colol pigment inks.  The things 
> HP has done, however, that I was not able to do with third party 
> inks, include using very lightfast colors, balancing the fade rates 
> to avoid tonal shift (see a discussion of my early efforts at 
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/messag
> e/58048), and advanced pigment suspension via a new coating that 
> stops the different types of pigments from stratifying.  
> 
> So, it looks like we have a new and superior PKN.  But, I still 
> believe a good carbon that can actually print neutral without color 
> inks (i.e., Eboni with a 1.5 pl printer and not diluted) will be a 
> better neutral matte inkset.  But, until Epson makes a 1.5 pl wide 
> format printer, I need a more stable insket for the 7500 (I'm tired 
> of picking up the 7500 and shaking it), and I think many will 
> appreciate an advanced, neutral and affordable inkset for their 
> Epsons. 
> 
>  
> 
> > 
> > I've been in touch with the National Register of Historic Places
> > lately, and sent them a few 3MK prints on Moab Lasal done on 
> > my R1800. It's tough to keep a dialogue going, they're rather 
> > busy, but they do seem interested.
> 
> Do they do their own testing?
> 
> > After studying Wilhelm's site, I see he approves of
> > the R1800 with K3 ...
> 
> Do you have a URL for what you're looking at?  I assumed he just 
> tested the 1800 with OEM color inks in it.
> 
> > ...doesn't
> > the K3 process, although carbon-based, still use some color pigment
> > inks, thus weakening their longevity over against pure carbon?
> 
> The 2400 3K B&W "ABW" mode prints definitely use color.  I don't know 
> of a 3K 1800 approach aside from the 3-MK one using Eboni, and I know 
> of no fade tests of that by any commercial testing group.
> 
> > My basic thinking is that since carbon-based 3MK, with touches of
> > color pigment, easily meet Register standards then pure carbon 
> > should be a no-brainer.
> 
> Yes.  I'm curious where the "3MK, with touches of color" is coming 
> from.
> 
> 
> > I wish there were some way to get the 3MK process on 
> > Wilhelm's charts.
> 
> So do I.  I've never had any significant contact with him.  My 
> impression is that his tests are just too expensive for little 
> outfits like MIS.  (It's a shame the supplier hasn't picked up this 
> ball -- hint.)
>  
> > I'll be interested to see how your HP work develops. Perhaps that
> > process will eventually make Wilhelm's list.
> 
> While I am convinced Wilhelm is very reputable and a very good 
> person, I don't think he's a charity.  It would be great if he'd do 
> some "pro bono" work, but I've never seen any indication of this with 
> respect to the inks we use. 
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

> > I've been in touch with the National Register of Historic Places
> > lately, and sent them a few 3MK prints on Moab Lasal done on 
> > my R1800.

> Do they do their own testing?

I don't believe so... here are two links from their site:

http://www.nps.gov/history/nr/policyexpansion.htm#digital

http://www.nps.gov/history/nR/publications/bulletins/photopolicy/photo_policy_checklist.htm

> > After studying Wilhelm's site, I see he approves of
> > the R1800 with K3 ...

> Do you have a URL for what you're looking at?  I assumed he just 
> tested the 1800 with OEM color inks in it.

Here's a link for the 2400 using 3K Ultrachrome and ABW. (I thought it
was for the 1800, sorry): http://www.wilhelm-research.com/epson/R2400.html

As you confirmed later in your message, this process does use some
color. Still, Wilhelm's projected longevity for these prints exceeds
the 75 year standard required by the Register, and therefore our 3MK
carbon prints should do just as well and better.

> > My basic thinking is that since carbon-based 3MK prints, with the
> > ABW touches of color pigment, easily meet Register standards 
> > pure carbon should be a no-brainer.
 
> Yes.  I'm curious where the "3MK, with touches of color" is coming 
> from.

I meant to say 3K, sorry.

> > I wish there were some way to get the 3MK process on 
> > Wilhelm's charts.

> So do I.  I've never had any significant contact with him.  My 
> impression is that his tests are just too expensive for little 
> outfits like MIS. 

His work has really taken off ... back in the 70's (dates me!) I
ordered a print washer from him as mentioned in the Whole Photography
Catalog, remember that spin-off of the Whole Earth Catalog? His
pioneering work with this excellent print washer was probably an early
presage to his interest in archival issues.

Paul

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Roger"
<rsmith02@...> wrote:
>
> Aardenberg's tests of Image Specialist inks in a few printers should
> give some comfort regarding the fading of Eboni MK- unlike the color
> inks it proved quite stable.
> 
> It is too bad MIS or Inkrepublic won't pick up the tab for Wilhelm's
> tests, or for Epson to do it as they may have as part of a comparison
> of third party dye inks and papers (which clearly discredited these
> inferior products).

Hello Roger,

Help me clarify what you are saying... did Wilhelm do these
comparisons, or Epson? And which are the inferior products? Sorry, I
got a little lost as in "Who's on first?, no, who's on second", etc. !!!

Thanks!

Paul W.

Wilhelm did them. Someone must have paid him so I'm speculating an OEM
maker like Epson did.

http://www.wilhelm-research.com/dpn/DPNow_3rdPartyEuropeanInk.pdf

http://www.wilhelm-research.com/hardcopy/WIR_AftermarketTests2006_05.pdf

The third party dye-based inks are far inferior to OEM dyes.  

I was suggesting that maybe Epson would be interested in supporting a
similar round-up of third party pigment inks to clearly differentiate
between OEM and aftermarket.

> Hello Roger,
> 
> Help me clarify what you are saying... did Wilhelm do these
> comparisons, or Epson? And which are the inferior products? Sorry, I
> got a little lost as in "Who's on first?, no, who's on second", etc. !!!
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Paul W.
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Roger" <rsmith02@...> wrote:
>

> I was suggesting that maybe Epson would be interested in supporting a
> similar round-up of third party pigment inks to clearly differentiate
> between OEM and aftermarket.

If Epson pays Wilhelm to test inks the results will belong to Epson and will be released by Wilhelm only if Epson 
authorizes that release.  If we want Wilhelm testing we'll have to pay for it.  Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't see 
Wilhelm selling subscriptions like Consumer Reports.

> If Epson pays Wilhelm to test inks the results will belong to Epson
and will be released by Wilhelm only if Epson 
> authorizes that release.  If we want Wilhelm testing we'll have to
pay for it.  Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't see 
> Wilhelm selling subscriptions like Consumer Reports.
>

Yep, that's right.  And Epson would certainly release it when they
blow (some) aftermarket color pigments out of the water.

The Aardenburg folks have more of the Consumer Reports model,
including reporting your own experiences (you can sign up for testing
using your particular inkset/paper
http://aardenburg-imaging.com/acceleratedagingtests.html ).  I find
their results more interesting than WIR as they show you fading per
color over time.

You can subscribe here and get full access to their database:
http://aardenburg-imaging.com/membership/membership1.html

pr_roark wrote:

> Exactly.  It's the wide format printers that are the more likely 
> problem area.  I do still have Eboni-6 in my 7500, but the carts 
> require manual agitation.  In all my PDFs I stopped recommending 
> these inksets for wide format as soon as I discovered the problem.
> 
>> I know that with CIS you can shake the bottles occasionally.
> 
> Yes, and the problem really didn't show up in the 2200 I had with 
> Carbon-6 for 9 months.  I agitated the bottles occasionally, and the 
> carts do have ink in them that gets agitated.  So, the fluctuations 
> in density appear to get averaged out.
> 
> It does not appear that the "settlement" is causing significant 
> agglomerations of Eboni, it just gets darker at the bottom and 
> lighter at the top.

With the 9000 + my own CIS loaded with MIS VM and the 10000 
with MIS 7600 the least of my problem was actually the 
Eboni. The PK and lighter shades were worse on the 9000, the 
ML and the Y on the color model. The 9000's shaking wasn't 
enough to keep them suspended, the tubes showed 
agglomeration and the dampers collected the particles so got 
blocked. It worked excellent in the first year. Best case 
was when a lot of work had to be done with fresh loads of 
ink. It got worse in the end but even then the Eboni channel 
could be kept open quite well. When looking back I am sure 
the time to keep things going wasn't worth the ink price 
difference on the last color model. There was no other 
choice for color 8 years before than Generations and we know 
there was no other choice for B&W 4-5 years ago.

I'm no longer a candidate for CIS developments but a CIS 
based on HP carts with an actuator to let the pumps work on 
a regular schedule would be a nice construction but even 
then the tube contents should at least be renewed once a 
week by some printing done.


-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst


|  Dinkla Grafische Techniek  |
|     www.pigment-print.com    |
|             ( unvollendet )            |

Roger wrote:
> Wilhelm did them. Someone must have paid him so I'm speculating an OEM
> maker like Epson did.
> 
> http://www.wilhelm-research.com/dpn/DPNow_3rdPartyEuropeanInk.pdf
> 
> http://www.wilhelm-research.com/hardcopy/WIR_AftermarketTests2006_05.pdf
> 
> The third party dye-based inks are far inferior to OEM dyes.  
> 
> I was suggesting that maybe Epson would be interested in supporting a
> similar round-up of third party pigment inks to clearly differentiate
> between OEM and aftermarket.

Of course the third party dye inks selected had to be worst
case, an OEM like Epson wouldn't pay for a test of a third
party  ink that had chances to be equal or not that bad.

Dye inks like the HP Vivera dye, the Ilford Archiva dye (and
the Lincoln inks for Epson based on it), the Epson dye that
was used in the 10600 dye model and the MIS clone of it are
not that far apart if used on compatible papers. Not the OEM
pigment fade resistance but much better than 90% of the
dilutions you can order on the web.

It's a long time ago that Mediastreet's Generation pigment
ink has been tested by Wilhelm, Lyson's Lysonic and Fotonic
dye by the same institute (and failed), MIS hybrid inks by
RIT and some lesser known brands by Wilhelm.

Aardenburg is the better concept in test method and 
organisation but it will be difficult with the hard times
ahead. Let us hope that some institutes like musea etc get 
involved. The German Image Engineering that does its tests 
for magazines is less sophisticated in test method but could 
possibly stand the time better by its other financing 
structure. Time will tell.

-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst


|  Dinkla Grafische Techniek  |
|     www.pigment-print.com    |
|             ( unvollendet )            |

Ernst Dinkla <edinkla@...> wrote:

...
> 
> With the 9000 + my own CIS loaded with MIS VM and the 10000 
> with MIS 7600 the least of my problem was actually the 
> Eboni. 

Full strength, 100% Eboni is not really a serious problem.  I'm not 
sure if it stays in suspension better at the higher loads (some 
electrostatically stabilized pigments appear to) or if its just that 
at that high pigment load the load-to-print density relationship is 
so non-linear that we don't notice the changes.

> The PK and lighter shades were worse on the 9000, the 
> ML and the Y on the color model.

I've rather assumed that the weaker a color pigment is, the larger 
they grind the particles in an attempt to offset the oxidation rate 
with size.

One thing I used to do is just put a drop of the dense ink into the 
base and see if there was visible settlement.  Both MIS M and Epson 
UC M showed settlement at the bottom of the test tube.  Eboni did not.

>... the Eboni channel could be kept open quite well.

I continue to favor Eboni in the K position.  I think it's a great 
MK, but I just do not know how to keep it stable *when diluted* (nor, 
apparently, does MIS and its supplier).  Again, in the desktop 
printers, this is really not an issue.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Kind of sounds like eboni has a small net negative surface charge  and a
relatively large particle size. That would tend to keep the particles in
suspension when fairly concentrated and allow for a more rapid sedimentation
when relatively dilute. One sees the same phenomenon with red cells. The
matrix effect of the suspending liquid can influence the surface charge but
I am too many years away from this kind of chemistry to go much farther...

Roger

From: pr_roark <pr_roark@...>
Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
<DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2009 16:15:05 -0000
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
<DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Diluting HP PK

 
 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Roger Sopher <portlyfox@...> wrote:


> Kind of sounds like eboni has a small net negative surface
> charge  and a relatively large particle size. 
> That would tend to keep the particles in
> suspension when fairly concentrated and allow for a 
> more rapid sedimentation when relatively dilute.

That's exactly what I suspect.  The various forces that seem to be at 
work are effective at different distances.  There may be a specific 
distance at which the matrix of particles are in relative 
equilibrium, but when diluted that average distance is too much.  So, 
they tend to settle back into the more stable, denser matrix.

> One sees the same phenomenon with red cells.

The centrifuge I'm using is a used medical lab desktop unit.  I 
assume blood separation was it's main purpose.

> The matrix effect of the suspending liquid can influence 
> the surface charge ...

I've tried to find a different base mix that would help, but so far 
without success.  Frankly, I think the supplier is in a better 
position to know which way -- if any -- to go in this respect, so I'm 
not going to put more effort into dilute Eboni.  It's a very nice 
100% MK, and the diluted Eboni mixes work well on the desktop.  Wide 
format diluted Eboni, however, is not recommended (even though I'm 
still using it).

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark"
<pr_roark@...> wrote:
> It's a very nice 
> 100% MK, and the diluted Eboni mixes work well on the desktop.  Wide 
> format diluted Eboni, however, is not recommended (even though I'm 
> still using it).
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

Paul, does it settle in the ink lines or just in the carts? If it is
stable in the lines then you could probably make a vibrating mechanism
that keeps the carts agitated enough to keep it in suspension. Inside
the 9000/9500 there would be plenty of room in the cartridge holder
box to strap a motor with an off balance wheel to cause a vibration
(pager/cell phone vibrator), not sure about the 7000/7500. Would
probably be easy enough to rig up a timer that runs it for 30 minutes
every couple hours and always when the printer is turned on. That
said, when the printer is printing there is a lot back and forth
movement of the inks. This has something to do with the movement of
the tubes as the head moves back and forth. Net change is several ml
of pulsing. Maybe not as much on the 7xxx since the lines are so much
shorter, but very apparent on the 9xxx when you build a bottle system.

"Greg" <dfaprinting@...> wrote:

...
> Paul, does it settle in the ink lines or just in the carts? 

I'm not sure, but I think it's the wide format printer carts where 
the problem is.  From what I can tell once the 7500 starts to print 
the dampers and lines get agitated enough to take care of whatever 
problems may have been there.  Also, the dilute Eboni positions in 
the 7500 virtually never show a bad nozzle check even after 
relatively long periods of non-use.  (The 100% Eboni will sometimes 
need a cleaning cycle.)

> If it is stable in the lines then you could probably make a 
> vibrating mechanism that keeps the carts agitated enough 
> to keep it in suspension. ...

You're probably right.  What I do now is just roll the cart end of 
the 7500 back and forth occassionally -- vigorously.  It's actually 
very simple.  

But if I didn't have very clear warnings about this problem in my PDF 
and here there would be too many people who would put the inkset into 
wide format type printers (including 3800) and then complain loudly 
that the inkset is a dog.  Likewise the 1800 sponge-
containing "spongeless" MIS carts that cause a tone change with Eboni-
6.  These types of problems really blow up for MIS and I if the 
issues are not very clearly disclosed when found and avoided whenever 
possible.

I might add that the old sepia and other blended inks in MIS mixes 
also have these problems, as discussed at page 4 of 
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/4K+.pdf

This tone shifting problem was first noticed by a wide format user 
who did not use a stand.  Those of us who regularly printed with a 
stand found that the rocking of the stand did the job -- as long as 
the printer was used often.  But if no stand is used -- as in many 
3800, 4000, etc. installations -- these problems can (will) show up 
even with regular use.  

One of the interesting issues with the HP neutral pigments is whether 
HP's pigment and stabilization advances will avoid this even when the 
inks are diluted.  The HP neutral greys and PK are blends of 
different types of pigments from what I can tell, and the literature 
on pigment stabilization is consistent with what I've seen -- blends 
tend to separate.  Particularly with electrostatically stabilized 
matrices, the particles that are dissimilar just don't fit in as 
well, so the fall out of the matrix.  The trick appears to be to very 
closely match the pigment characteristics that affect the 
stabilization.  So far, the tone changes I'm seeing with the HP 
pigments in the centrifuge tests -- diluted or not -- are minor.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark"
<pr_roark@...> wrote:

> 
> You're probably right.  What I do now is just roll the cart end of 
> the 7500 back and forth occassionally -- vigorously.  It's actually 
> very simple.  
> 


Since the 9000/9500 has carts in both ends, a different agitation may
need to be used. I've often thought about adding a brace to the 9500
to stop the swaying when printing, maybe making it stiffer would be a
bad idea.

Red cells have a net negative surface charge and repel each other. The
surface charge can be modified by the composition of the protein matrix
surrounding them. For example, if one has an acute inflammatory condition
the charge on the red cells is diminished and they tend to clump forming
larger ³particles² and fall out of suspension more rapidly. This is more or
less the basis for the old ESR (erythrocyte sedimentation rate) test. If the
problem were in the concentrate then it might be possible to find a
suspending medium that would increase the surface charge on the particles.
In a dilute system that would have little or no effect. Sounds to me that
diluting eboni is fighting physics. I suppose it would be possible to boost
the viscosity of the suspending fluid but that would open a whole other can
of worms and would only slow not solve the sedimentation problem.

Roger

From: pr_roark <pr_roark@...>
Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
<DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2009 17:38:34 -0000
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
<DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Diluting HP PK

 
 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ernst Dinkla <edinkla@...> wrote:

>... 
> With the 9000 + my own CIS loaded with MIS VM and the 10000 
> with MIS 7600 the least of my problem was actually the 
> Eboni. The PK and lighter shades were worse on the 9000, ...

That made me curious about how the MIS PK and Epson UC 7600 PK would 
do in a centrifuge test if both were put into 10% dilutions of my C6 
generic dilution base.  A couple of us are looking at using the C6 
base to dilute PKs for use in warm carbon channel to go with the HP 
cool dilutions.  The results of a 30 minute spin were that the 10% 
MIS PK had a change in Lab L (top of test tube to average) of 0.4%.  
The 10% 7600 PK changed 1.4%.  (A lower change is better.)

The relationship of the Lab L change to Lab B was the same as I've 
seen within other black pigment types: The larger the change in Lab 
L, the cooler the pigment.  Here the MIS 10% PF in the draw dawn on 
EEM had a Lab B = 4.4.  The 7600 had a Lab B = 2.8.

For comparison, Eboni-6 Y (the lightest at 2% Eboni and also the most 
stable of the Eboni dilutions) has a Lab L change of 2.9% and a Lab B 
= 1.3.

I've put a graph of these results on the web at 
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/light-Warm-Spin-Graph.jpg 

Here, heavier appears to correlate with cooler.  


Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

> "pr_roark" wrote:

> A couple of us are looking at using the C6 
> base to dilute PKs for use in warm carbon 
> channel to go with the HP cool dilutions.  

Thank you for all of the research and information sharing Paul.

I have been looking for a good "photo black" only (glossy and semi-
gloss) ink set.  I am going to let the matte papers go in favor of 
the new baryta's, and the standard Epson Luster etc., that I use for 
color printing.

After testing the Carbon 6 on matte papers last year, I mixed up a 
test "glossy" ink set for my 7600 using the Epson PK and the C6 base 
last summer.  

I wound up with a 5K+GLOP ink set that I was quite happy with.  I was 
going to use the last channel for a magenta/cyan toner ink, but never 
quite got around to it. ;>)  The PK mixture was a bit brown and 
green, as expected with the Epson, but I was happy with it for 
proofing.  I never envisioned using it as a final ink set.

I also mixed up an Epson PK ink set on the 2200 using the 3 K3 
blacks - PK, LK, LLK.  I saw no real reason to prefer that ink set 
over the one on teh 7600, just starting with PK and making my own 
dilutions using the C6 base.

I am going to try the same kind of mix using the HP PK, as you have 
outlined.  

To make a set of 250 ml cartridges of eack ink in the 5K+GLOP mix 
requires about 500 ml of the base "K" ink to start. To mix, I just 
used 250 ml bottles and put 1/2 as much K ink in each successive 
bottle as in the preceeding. Then I "filled up" the bottle with the 
C6 base. 

So I started with 250 ml of K in the first bottle, then 125 ml, 60ml, 
30 ml, and 15 ml, and finally 5ml for a 6K set.  I need to take a 
close look at the Lab A and Lab B tone curves of an HP PK only mix 
and decide on the final channels.  I will probably try a 6K+GLOP with 
all HP PK and no toner first, then see if I really need a toner. I am 
not quite as obsessed with longevity and will probably just use color 
inks as toner in the 6th "K" channel if needed. 

Cost would be for two double-packs of the 130ml HP PK carts, or about 
$200 from mpex.com, plus the small cost of the C6 base (maybe $10?).  
That will make 6 x 250 ml = 1.5 liters of ink. Add in about $25 for 
250 ml of GLOP if I remember pricing correctly ($50 per 500 ml?)

It may be a week or 2 before I have a chance to mix and profile the 
inks.  Just getting back after many months off (neck pain problems.)

Best,
Michael

Pul,

Have you tried the HP PK in a B.O. situation? Will it work in the 1400?

It would be great if it would work in the 1400 and could print on the 
papers such as Ilford Gold Silk.

Thanks,
Scott

"Michael T. Murphy" <uriel_bear@...> wrote:

> > "pr_roark" wrote:
> 
> > A couple of us are looking at using the C6 
> > base to dilute PKs for use in warm carbon 
> > channel to go with the HP cool dilutions.  

> ...
> I have been looking for a good "photo black" only (glossy and semi-
> gloss) ink set.  ...
> 
> I mixed up a test "glossy" ink set for my 7600 using the 
> Epson PK and the C6 base ...  
> ... 
> The PK mixture was a bit brown and green, ...

On my draw-down test of the 10% Epson PK, 90% C6 base mix on EEM, I 
measure a Lab A = 2.1 and Lab B = 2.8.  So, I don't see any green, 
though it is warmer than I like.  Maybe this is mostly a matter of 
what paper is used, and I did not test this mix on any glossy paper.  

Did you have any problem with clogging or inconsistent ink densities?

> I am going to try the same kind of mix using the HP PK, as you have 
> outlined.  
>...

> I am not ... obsessed with longevity and will probably just 
> use color inks as toner in the 6th "K" channel if needed.

I think the Wilhelm HP numbers give sufficient confidence for most.  
One of the major concerns with color inks in B&W is the differential 
fading and green or other tone shifts.  In this respect, not only do 
the superior HP color ratings give confidence, but a major part of 
the HP effort here has apparently been to get color pigments that 
will fade evenly.  So, they've really focused on the issues we've 
discussed here over the last several years.

Keep us posted on your progress.  Right now my test 220 is sitting 
idle for the month to see if it'll clog with the HP mix.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

"scott_now_coming" <scott_now_coming@...> wrote:

 
> Have you tried the HP PK in a B.O. situation? 
> Will it work in the 1400?

I have not tried the HP PK in the 1400.  

I did print with the HP stock Grey ink in my 1800, and it didn't micro-
band any worse than the other B&W inks I've used in the printer when 
only one jet is working.  While this doesn't tell us a whole lot, at 
least the results did not show any problems that clearly related to the 
HP ink.  


> It would be great if it would work in the 1400 and could print on the 
> papers such as Ilford Gold Silk.

Yes, it could be interesting.

In addition to whether the ink will print well print is whether the 
viscosity is at least high enough to stop the ink from running straight 
through the head.  This would get expensive.  In one stored printer I 
found that the cleaning fluid that was made with 50% MIS base and 50% 
water had simply run through the heads and emptied the carts. 

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

"scott_now_coming" <scott_now_coming@...> wrote:

>...
> Have you tried the HP PK in a B.O. situation? 
> Will it work in the 1400?

I just printed a 1400 HP-PK black only test strip on some old 
Kirkland glossy paper.  With QTR I was able to get a dmax of about 
2.4.  The tones are shown in this Lab A & B graph:
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/1400-HP-PK-BO-Kirkland.jpg

The reflective artifacts are minimal.

With normal reading glasses, I can't see individual dots, but I do 
get a sense that it's not totally smooth.  Even with a magnifier, I'm 
not seeing any microbanding.

So, although I can't say anything about clogging or other issues that 
might crop up, it looks like it'll work quite well.

I'd had 30% HP-PK mixed with 70% C6 base in that spot, sitting idle 
and next to the Eboni, in the yellow spot, for about 3 weeks.  All 
inks had a perfect nozzle check after these two inks had been sitting 
idle for this amount of time.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

> I just printed a 1400 HP-PK black only test strip on some old 
> Kirkland glossy paper.  With QTR I was able to get a dmax of about 
> 2.4.  The tones are shown in this Lab A & B graph:
> http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/1400-HP-PK-BO-Kirkland.jpg
> 
> The reflective artifacts are minimal.

A full image on the Kirkland paper has low enough reflective 
artifacts that I don't think any glop is warranted.  A smooth sky is 
still smooth; there was no build-up of grain that way we've seen with 
the 3-MK process.  So, it looks good.

Ilford Gold FB hits a dmax of 1.72 at an ink limit of 100.  The tones 
are very neutral through the midtones. See 
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/HP-PK-Ilford-Gold-tones.jpg

I'm not thrilled with the "glittery" reflections of the Ilford 
surface, but overall, this is looking like an impressive approach if 
it doesn't clog.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Paul,

In the testing that you've done, have you noticed any oddities from
spraying the HP inks in a piezo head? Just wondering if the lack of
heat is helping or hurting the ink.

"Greg" <dfaprinting@...> wrote:
>
> Paul,
> 
> In the testing that you've done, have you noticed any oddities from
> spraying the HP inks in a piezo head? Just wondering if the lack of
> heat is helping or hurting the ink.
>

So far, the prints made with HP PK look just like ink that was designed 
for Epsons. 

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Greg wrote:
> Paul,
> 
> In the testing that you've done, have you noticed any oddities from
> spraying the HP inks in a piezo head? Just wondering if the lack of
> heat is helping or hurting the ink.
> 
> 
Greg,

I wondered about that too but in reality just a very small 
amount of the ink vaporises to blow the droplet out, a 
pi\ufffdzohead will create heat as well when it is working. In 
the end both are cooled by the ink flowing through.

-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst


|  Dinkla Grafische Techniek  |
|     www.pigment-print.com    |
|             ( unvollendet )            |

Paul,

What about diluting Epson black K3  inks. Have you tried them and what were
the results? 

Thanks,

Gary Wagner 

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of pr_roark
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 10:36 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Diluting HP PK

 

"Greg" <dfaprinting@...> wrote:
>
> Paul,
> 
> In the testing that you've done, have you noticed any oddities from
> spraying the HP inks in a piezo head? Just wondering if the lack of
> heat is helping or hurting the ink.
>

So far, the prints made with HP PK look just like ink that was designed 
for Epsons. 

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I wanted to update and correct my previous post on printing Black 
Only in a 1400 with full strength HP Z3100 PK.

First, after just over 1 week on sitting idle, the 1400 had no clogs -
- a perfect noozle check.  I had the HP PK in the Y position, which 
is right next to the Eboni K position.  PK next to MK has been the 
most likely to cause clogs in other printers and with other PKs.  So, 
going a week with no clogs might indicate that the HP PK is at least 
not more likely to clog than other PKs.  The 1400 also has Eboni-6 in 
2 position (and a full 3MK of Eboni).  

Second, I found a significant error in my previous post.  The 1400 
with HP PK on Crane Silver Rag hits a dmax of 2.72, not 1.72 as 
written in the original post.  The 2.72 100% QTR patch has now 
dropped to 2.61 after over a week of drying.  Needless to say, this 
is outstanding.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 


"pr_roark" <pr_roark@...> wrote:

> 
> > I just printed a 1400 HP-PK black only test strip on 
> > some old Kirkland glossy paper.  With QTR I was able 
> > to get a dmax of about 2.4.  
> > The tones are shown in this Lab A & B graph:
> > http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/1400-HP-PK-BO-Kirkland.jpg
> > 
> > The reflective artifacts are minimal.
> 
> A full image on the Kirkland paper has low enough reflective 
> artifacts that I don't think any glop is warranted.  
> A smooth sky is still smooth; there was no build-up of 
> grain that way we've seen with 
> the 3-MK process.  So, it looks good.
> 
> Ilford Gold FB hits a dmax of 1.72 at an ink limit of 100. 

Wrong -- it hit 2.72.

> The tones are very neutral through the midtones. See 
> http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/HP-PK-Ilford-Gold-tones.jpg
> 
> I'm not thrilled with the "glittery" reflections of the Ilford 
> surface, but overall, this is looking like an impressive
> approach if it doesn't clog.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

I've posted a graph of the Crane Silver Rag tones when printed with 
HP PK, black only, on the 1400.  See 

http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Tones-HP-PK-CSR.jpg

CSR even hits 2.4 with the 50% dilution of HP-PK that I'll likely use 
in a matte-paper, 7500 inkset.  This will allow me to print very good 
glossy prints when I need to, and on a very stable no-OBA paper. 
(Most papers have weak maximum blacks with the 50% dilution.)

The previously posted tone graphs are linked to below.

> Ilford Gold FB ...
> http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/HP-PK-Ilford-Gold-tones.jpg

> Old Kirkland glossy paper ...   
> http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/1400-HP-PK-BO-Kirkland.jpg

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Paul, I am very excited about trying the HP PK  since I generally like the higher dmax you 
can achive with the newer semi-glossy fiber based papers, especially after reading the 
high dmax you are obtaining with the Cranes Silver Rag paper (over 2.6 after several 
days... WOW!  I can't wait to see this for myself).  I am using the 1400 with the UT14 inks 
and have been generally pleased with their flexibility.

I am considering replacing the cool PK in the UT14 inkset with the HP PK as you have 
mentioned in this thread; I am also wondering about using a dilute HP PK in place of the 
light PK in the UT14 as well, since you had mentioned that you sensed that the HP PK BO 
approach wasn't totally smooth.  You had also mentioned in one of your post that the 
dilute HP PK has some bronzing or gloss differential that GLOP may help with.  

My questions:
***Since I like printing primarily on the semi-glossy fiber papers I am wondering if GLOP 
might be a suitable base to dilute the HP PK, as I believe i've read some people doing with 
other inks???  I figure this might help with the bronzing and gloss differential with the 
dilute HP PK.  What are your thoughts on this?  If this is possible what do you think a good 
dilution ratio would be to help smooth out the print?  Perhaps a 30% HP PK and 70% GLOP; 
or maybe even substituting some C6 base for part of the GLOP if this would be too high of 
a GLOP ratio in the mix, perhaps adding some Edwal LFN?  Another question, if it is 
possible to use GLOP as a diluting base would it still be compatible with matt papers; 
which isn't a major concern of mine, but would be nice for proofing?***

Some background of what I have achieved with the UT14 inksets:  After getting through 
the learning curve with QTR I was able to profile or create cool and warm curves fairly 
quickly for Epson Double Sided Matt, and ILFORD Gold FS and combine the two curves to 
create a fairly neutral print; achieving a dmax just under 2.30 on the Gold FS.

I was inspired by what you wrote about creating a fairly neutral 100% carbon glossy print 
using the Eboni in the K position and using the warm PK to get a higher dmax, which 
must have a protective spray of Premier Print Shield to prevent the Eboni from smearing.  I 
started with your EB_ILFORDGold_Spray_3.qidf file and tweaked it some and raised the 
GLOP level to a little over 60%, to reduce the gloss differential at the higher percentages, 
and was able to achieve a dmax of around 2.50 after spraying with Print Shield; i have 
noticed that it drops slightly after a few days, still in the mid to higher 2.40's.  I also 
noticed that the higher dmax was primarily due to the Print Shield as the dmax was quite 
a bit higher after spraying than before spraying.

I was blown away with how much "richer" the blacks and shadows were in the 100% 
carbon glossy print looked when compared to the neutral equivalent using the cool/warm 
blend of PK only inks.  There was much better separation in the shadows which revealed 
better shadow details.  The 100% carbon prints just looked richer with a greater depth, 
deeper perceived blacks than with the PK only prints.

That is what I liked about the 100% carbon glossy prints on the ILFORD Gold FS.  What I 
didn't like about them was the visible dots or graininess, although at normal viewing 
distances isn't that bad, but it would be nice to get smoother mid-tones.  They are also a 
little warmer than what I would like, although it is a beautiful warmth that could grow me; 
I would say it is certainly on the warm side of neutral, at least with the Gold FS, which 
tends to produce very warm results with the warm PK inks in the UT14 inkset.

Sorry for the dissertation, I didn't mean for it to get so long, but felt that others might be 
interested in what I am desiring to achieve and my results so far.

Much thanks for your input,
Randy

>
> I wanted to update and correct my previous post on printing Black 
> Only in a 1400 with full strength HP Z3100 PK.
> 
> First, after just over 1 week on sitting idle, the 1400 had no clogs -
> - a perfect noozle check.  I had the HP PK in the Y position, which 
> is right next to the Eboni K position.  PK next to MK has been the 
> most likely to cause clogs in other printers and with other PKs.  So, 
> going a week with no clogs might indicate that the HP PK is at least 
> not more likely to clog than other PKs.  The 1400 also has Eboni-6 in 
> 2 position (and a full 3MK of Eboni).  
> 
> Second, I found a significant error in my previous post.  The 1400 
> with HP PK on Crane Silver Rag hits a dmax of 2.72, not 1.72 as 
> written in the original post.  The 2.72 100% QTR patch has now 
> dropped to 2.61 after over a week of drying.  Needless to say, this 
> is outstanding.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com 
> 
> 
> "pr_roark" <pr_roark@> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > > I just printed a 1400 HP-PK black only test strip on 
> > > some old Kirkland glossy paper.  With QTR I was able 
> > > to get a dmax of about 2.4.  
> > > The tones are shown in this Lab A & B graph:
> > > http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/1400-HP-PK-BO-Kirkland.jpg
> > > 
> > > The reflective artifacts are minimal.
> > 
> > A full image on the Kirkland paper has low enough reflective 
> > artifacts that I don't think any glop is warranted.  
> > A smooth sky is still smooth; there was no build-up of 
> > grain that way we've seen with 
> > the 3-MK process.  So, it looks good.
> > 
> > Ilford Gold FB hits a dmax of 1.72 at an ink limit of 100. 
> 
> Wrong -- it hit 2.72.
> 
> 
> > The tones are very neutral through the midtones. See 
> > http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/HP-PK-Ilford-Gold-tones.jpg
> > 
> > I'm not thrilled with the "glittery" reflections of the Ilford 
> > surface, but overall, this is looking like an impressive
> > approach if it doesn't clog.
> > 
> > Paul
> > www.PaulRoark.com
> >
>

"Randy Rancier" <randy_rancier2004@...> wrote:

> I am very excited about trying the HP PK ...
  
> I am considering replacing the cool PK in the UT14 inkset 
> with the HP PK as you have mentioned in this thread ...

> My questions:
> ***Since I like printing primarily on the semi-glossy fiber 
> papers I am wondering if GLOP might be a suitable base to 
> dilute the HP PK, as I believe i've read some people doing
> with other inks???

The HP pigments are coated.  So, they do not need the binder in glop 
to hold them down.  I'm not sure if the glop as a base would lead to 
more clogging or if it would reduce bronzing. I'd probably stick to 
the C6 base, with the Edwal wetting agent, using glop as a separate 
channel, the way it's currently set up in UT14.

>...what do you think a good dilution ratio would be to help 
> smooth out the print?  Perhaps a 30% HP PK and 70% GLOP; 
> or maybe even substituting some C6 base ...

Yes.

>   Another question, if it is 
> possible to use GLOP as a diluting base would it still 
> be compatible with matt papers; 

Yes.

Let us know how it works out.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Thanks Paul, one question I have about using the the Edwal LFN that I was not sure about 
when reading your pdf was, is the LFN used in place of, or in addition to the Photo-Flo in 
the C-6 base?  Also, if I experiment some and try to dilute the HP BK with GLOP, instead of 
the C-6 base, do you think I should add some LFN to the mix as well?

Your input is greatly appreciated,
Randy

> 
> > I am very excited about trying the HP PK ...
>   
> > I am considering replacing the cool PK in the UT14 inkset 
> > with the HP PK as you have mentioned in this thread ...
> 
> > My questions:
> > ***Since I like printing primarily on the semi-glossy fiber 
> > papers I am wondering if GLOP might be a suitable base to 
> > dilute the HP PK, as I believe i've read some people doing
> > with other inks???
> 
> The HP pigments are coated.  So, they do not need the binder in glop 
> to hold them down.  I'm not sure if the glop as a base would lead to 
> more clogging or if it would reduce bronzing. I'd probably stick to 
> the C6 base, with the Edwal wetting agent, using glop as a separate 
> channel, the way it's currently set up in UT14.
> 
> >...what do you think a good dilution ratio would be to help 
> > smooth out the print?  Perhaps a 30% HP PK and 70% GLOP; 
> > or maybe even substituting some C6 base ...
> 
> Yes.
> 
> >   Another question, if it is 
> > possible to use GLOP as a diluting base would it still 
> > be compatible with matt papers; 
> 
> Yes.
> 
> Let us know how it works out.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

"Randy Rancier" <randy_rancier2004@...> wrote:
>
> ... about using the the Edwal LFN ...
>  is the LFN used in place of, or in addition to the Photo-Flo in 
> the C-6 base? 

The Edwal LFN is used in addition to the Photo Flo in the latest C6 
base mix (sometimes referred to by me as "C6c").  Photo Flo has yet 
another surfactant in is as well as some glycol that is probably useful.

> Also, if I experiment some and try to dilute the HP BK 
> ith GLOP, instead of the C-6 base, do you think I should 
> add some LFN to the mix as well?

No, I'd be curious how the glop does as a base.  See if it, in fact, 
reduces the bronzing.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Ok, I'll give the glop as a base a try as soon as I can get some of the HP PK.

Also, I'm curious if the HP PK from the HP Z3100, I believe you said you are using, is the 
same as the PK used in the HP B9180 which i also have; I have been very impressed with 
the B&W prints I get out of it and are beautiful, but I was concerned about their permanence, and thus the whole ordeal with the 1400.  It would be somewhat humorous 
if the pigments in my HP B9180 were in fact more stable than the pigments in the Epson 
inks.  I'll look at some of the references you have given on the Wilhelm test to see if the 
inks from the HP B9180 are included in the test.

Thanks,
Randy

>Paul wrote: 
> No, I'd be curious how the glop does as a base.  See if it, in fact, 
> reduces the bronzing.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

Randy Rancier wrote:
> Ok, I'll give the glop as a base a try as soon as I can get some of the HP PK.
> 
> Also, I'm curious if the HP PK from the HP Z3100, I believe you said you are using, is the 
> same as the PK used in the HP B9180 which i also have; I have been very impressed with 
> the B&W prints I get out of it and are beautiful, but I was concerned about their permanence, and thus the whole ordeal with the 1400.  It would be somewhat humorous 
> if the pigments in my HP B9180 were in fact more stable than the pigments in the Epson 
> inks.  I'll look at some of the references you have given on the Wilhelm test to see if the 
> inks from the HP B9180 are included in the test.
> 
> Thanks,
> Randy

AFAIK the B9180 Vivera pigment inkset is the same as the one 
of the Z2100 + Z6100 which is again very similar to the 
Z3100 inkset. Where the last has the extra Orange, Green, 
Violet inks, the Z2100 and B9180 have two cyan inks instead 
of the single one in the Z3100. The same 130 ml PK cart is 
used for the Z2100 and Z3100. And for example the No 70 
Photo black and Light Grey head is usable on both the B9180 
and Z2100.


-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst


|  Dinkla Grafische Techniek  |
|     www.pigment-print.com    |
|             ( unvollendet )            |

Paul,

I would like to try the HP PK mix but am a little uncertain on how to
achieve the dilutions. I read the HPC6 article and it says to use by volume
62% distilled water, 28% glycerol and 9.7% Photo-Flo. I assume I will change
all of these to mls and create a standard clear base to use for all
dilutions is this correct? 

 

I then add an amount of HP PK for the  50% and lesser amount for each other
dilution. Does this mean I would add 10ml of ink and 10ml of clear base to
make 20ml for the 50% dilution?  

 

Also 4ml of ink and 16mls of clear base to make a 20% dilution?

 

I would like to do this correctly the first time before I make a big mess in
the kitchen. 

 

Thanks for your help.

Gary Wagner

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of pr_roark
Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 8:16 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: HP PK BO

 

"Randy Rancier" <randy_rancier2004@...> wrote:
>
> ... about using the the Edwal LFN ...
> is the LFN used in place of, or in addition to the Photo-Flo in 
> the C-6 base? 

The Edwal LFN is used in addition to the Photo Flo in the latest C6 
base mix (sometimes referred to by me as "C6c"). Photo Flo has yet 
another surfactant in is as well as some glycol that is probably useful.

> Also, if I experiment some and try to dilute the HP BK 
> ith GLOP, instead of the C-6 base, do you think I should 
> add some LFN to the mix as well?

No, I'd be curious how the glop does as a base. See if it, in fact, 
reduces the bronzing.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Randy Rancier wrote:
> > ... I'm curious if the HP PK from the HP Z3100, I 
> > believe you said you are using, is the 
> > same as the PK used in the HP B9180 which i also have; 
> > I have been very impressed with 
> > the B&W prints I get out of it and are beautiful, 
> > but I was concerned about their permanence, and 
> > thus the whole ordeal with the 1400.  

> > It would be somewhat humorous 
> > if the pigments in my HP B9180 were in fact more 
> > stable than the pigments in the Epson inks.  ...

Ernst Dinkla wrote:
> AFAIK the B9180 Vivera pigment inkset is the same ...


I believe the Wilhelm tests give an edge to HP over Epson.

The third party B&W inksets do rather well compared to the Epson ABW 
mode printing, but this is probably due to the excess of color the 
ABW mode uses.  If one uses QTR to print Epson OEM inks, I think the 
story would be differnt.  I believe http://www.aardenburg-
imaging.com/ rates the Epson color pigment as better than the MIS 
color pigments.  

While MIS and Epson carbon inks are very lightfast, when it comes to 
making a neutral inkset that uses color pigments to cool down the 
carbon, the stability of the color pigments become very important to 
the overall print stability.  This gets even more complex when one 
considers differential fade of the different color pigments used.  
Matching the fade rates of the color pigments is, quite simply, 
beyond what I can do with the resources and time I have.  So, while I 
think for the vast majority of desktop printers the MIS B&W inksets 
such as the UT14 are very good, I expect the HP-PK based inkset to be 
more stable, but it will not show up in a very long time.  

I may be wrong, and will attempt to do a comparative fade test if and 
when I'm actually using the HP approach more, but I expect that among 
the inksets I use, only the 100% Eboni carbon approach (on non-
brightened paper) will be more stable than the HP-based inkset (on 
the same paper).  

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

"Gary Wagner" <gcwagner@...> wrote:


> I would like to try the HP PK mix but am a little uncertain 
> on how to achieve the dilutions. I read the HPC6 article 
> and it says to use by volume 62% distilled water, 28% 
> glycerol and 9.7% Photo-Flo. I assume I will change
> all of these to mls and create a standard clear base 
> to use for all dilutions is this correct? 

Yes.  I'd also use the 1% Edwal wetting agent.  

> I then add an amount of HP PK for the 50% and lesser 
> amount for each other dilution. Does this mean I would 
> add 10ml of ink and 10ml of clear base to
> make 20ml for the 50% dilution? 

Yes.

By the way, some are starting to use a 30% - 9% HP mix in a cool-
neutral channel and then LK-LLK in the other, warm channel.  If you 
have a modern printer, this will probably work well and allow warm 
printing and easy profiling with both the Epson driver and QTR.  Then 
you can also use Glop in the Y position if you're doing glossy 
printing.  You'd have to change black inks to switch between glossy 
and matte.  

My use of the 4 HP PK dilutions is aimed at my old 7500 with its 
relatively huge droplets.  It needs the additional dilutions, but 
this restricts my tones and glossy printing options.  Since I won't 
be able to switch black inks, I'll at least have the 50% HP PK and be 
able to print a good glossy on Crane Silver Rag, which gets a very 
good dmax (2.4) with this 50% mix (other papers are down at about 
1.8).  My focus is neutral images on matte paper, so this glossy 
potential is a "just in case" solution that I don't recommend for 
modern printers or those who want to be able to print a wider range 
of tones on a wider range of papers.


> Also 4ml of ink and 16mls of clear base to make a 20% dilution?

Yes.

Good luck with the approach.  Let us know how it works out.

I'm still testing this approach.  I have a printer sitting idle that 
I won't test again until the first week of March.  So far, I've seen 
no problems with either the full strength or dilute HP pigments.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Paul,

Thanks for the clarification. I was planning on trying this in my 1400 which
currently has Eboni 6 in it. I am planning on leaving the Eboni K and LK  in
the printer and replacing the 4 other dilutions with the HP inks. I was
going to print on matte paper and initially use the Epson driver as I am now
doing with Eboni 6. Is this all correct?

 

My understanding is that by doing this I should get a neutral to cool tone
on most matte papers.

 

Thanks,

Gary Wagner 

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of pr_roark
Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 7:23 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: HP PK BO

 

"Gary Wagner" <gcwagner@...> wrote:

> I would like to try the HP PK mix but am a little uncertain 
> on how to achieve the dilutions. I read the HPC6 article 
> and it says to use by volume 62% distilled water, 28% 
> glycerol and 9.7% Photo-Flo. I assume I will change
> all of these to mls and create a standard clear base 
> to use for all dilutions is this correct? 

Yes. I'd also use the 1% Edwal wetting agent. 

> I then add an amount of HP PK for the 50% and lesser 
> amount for each other dilution. Does this mean I would 
> add 10ml of ink and 10ml of clear base to
> make 20ml for the 50% dilution? 

Yes.

By the way, some are starting to use a 30% - 9% HP mix in a cool-
neutral channel and then LK-LLK in the other, warm channel. If you 
have a modern printer, this will probably work well and allow warm 
printing and easy profiling with both the Epson driver and QTR. Then 
you can also use Glop in the Y position if you're doing glossy 
printing. You'd have to change black inks to switch between glossy 
and matte. 

My use of the 4 HP PK dilutions is aimed at my old 7500 with its 
relatively huge droplets. It needs the additional dilutions, but 
this restricts my tones and glossy printing options. Since I won't 
be able to switch black inks, I'll at least have the 50% HP PK and be 
able to print a good glossy on Crane Silver Rag, which gets a very 
good dmax (2.4) with this 50% mix (other papers are down at about 
1.8). My focus is neutral images on matte paper, so this glossy 
potential is a "just in case" solution that I don't recommend for 
modern printers or those who want to be able to print a wider range 
of tones on a wider range of papers.

> Also 4ml of ink and 16mls of clear base to make a 20% dilution?

Yes.

Good luck with the approach. Let us know how it works out.

I'm still testing this approach. I have a printer sitting idle that 
I won't test again until the first week of March. So far, I've seen 
no problems with either the full strength or dilute HP pigments.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

"Gary Wagner" <gcwagner@...> wrote:
>... I was planning on trying this in my 1400 which
> currently has Eboni 6 in it. I am planning on leaving 
> the Eboni K and LK  in the printer and replacing the
> 4 other dilutions with the HP inks. I was
> going to print on matte paper and initially use the 
> Epson driver as I am now
> doing with Eboni 6. Is this all correct?
> 
> My understanding is that by doing this I should get a 
> neutral to cool tone on most matte papers.

Yes, that should do it.  

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

-- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark" > I may
be wrong, and will attempt to do a comparative fade test if and 
> when I'm actually using the HP approach more, but I expect that among 
> the inksets I use, only the 100% Eboni carbon approach (on non-
> brightened paper) will be more stable than the HP-based inkset (on 
> the same paper).  

Hello Paul,

The other Paul here, still hanging in with your 3MK approach. Glad to
hear your continued support of the 100% Eboni method as the most
stable. Sorry to have to tell you I still haven't heard back from the
National Register on my suggestion that they accept 100% Eboni prints
in nomination applications. I may have to nag them again soon.

Speaking of non-brightened papers, did one of your favorites get
discontinued, ie Premier Art Matt BW? Perhaps it was another of their
papers you preferred. 

Paul W.

"Paul Whiting" <paulmwhiting@...> wrote:
>... 
> Speaking of non-brightened papers, did one of your favorites get
> discontinued, ie Premier Art Matt BW? Perhaps it was another of their
> papers you preferred. 

I thought it was a good, inexpensive matte paper.  However, there are 
others that are very similar.  Red River's Polar Matte is about the 
same -- very bright with a 1.70 dmax -- but also with a bit more weight 
(225 gsm) and no curl.  So, it's a good substitute.  
See http://www.redrivercatalog.com/browse/60lb-polar-matte.html 

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Paul, rather than diluting the HP PK with glop as I had discussed with you a couple of days 
ago in order to try to reduce the bronzing and gloss differential, I was thinking that using 
the other gray inks in the HP Z3100 inkset might work better.

If I was going to try this with just one of the gray inks along with the HP PK in the 1400, 
which would you recommend using along with the HP PK; the HP Gray, or the HP Light 
Gray?  I figured rather than trying to save a few cents per print and save the trouble of 
mixing this might be a good alternative.  I also thought since this is an OEM mix that it 
might do better as far as the bronzing and gloss differential is concerned.  What are your 
thoughts on this?

I suppose one could use both the HP Gray and Light Gray inks along with the HP PK.  I 
supposed I could put the light gray ink in the Y position instead of the glop if you thought 
I might not need the glop with this approach.  But I did noticed that the HP Z3100 inkset 
also has a glop included, so the glop might still be required; perhaps it is only required 
for the "extra" glossy media.  Again, what are your thoughts on this.

Also, are there certain places where you have found the HP inks to be less expensive.  FYI, I know if you look around on the web for coupon codes HP has some usually $10 off per 
$50 order and they deliver overnight for free to boot.  i usually break my order up into 
smaller lots and use the discount with each of them, which has always worked for me.

Thanks,
Randy

Try Provantage for HP inks.

Bill

On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 9:39 AM, Randy Rancier
<randy_rancier2004@...>wrote:

>   Paul, rather than diluting the HP PK with glop as I had discussed with
> you a couple of days
> ago in order to try to reduce the bronzing and gloss differential, I was
> thinking that using
> the other gray inks in the HP Z3100 inkset might work better.
>
> If I was going to try this with just one of the gray inks along with the HP
> PK in the 1400,
> which would you recommend using along with the HP PK; the HP Gray, or the
> HP Light
> Gray? I figured rather than trying to save a few cents per print and save
> the trouble of
> mixing this might be a good alternative. I also thought since this is an
> OEM mix that it
> might do better as far as the bronzing and gloss differential is concerned.
> What are your
> thoughts on this?
>
> I suppose one could use both the HP Gray and Light Gray inks along with the
> HP PK. I
> supposed I could put the light gray ink in the Y position instead of the
> glop if you thought
> I might not need the glop with this approach. But I did noticed that the HP
> Z3100 inkset
> also has a glop included, so the glop might still be required; perhaps it
> is only required
> for the "extra" glossy media. Again, what are your thoughts on this.
>
> Also, are there certain places where you have found the HP inks to be less
> expensive. FYI, I know if you look around on the web for coupon codes HP has
> some usually $10 off per
> $50 order and they deliver overnight for free to boot. i usually break my
> order up into
> smaller lots and use the discount with each of them, which has always
> worked for me.
>
> Thanks,
> Randy
>
>  
>



-- 
Regards,

Bill Morse
Wm. Morse Editions

http://www.MorseEditions.com/


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> 
> Also, are there certain places where you
> have found the HP inks to be less expensive.

Midwest Photo Exchange usually has the best prices, or close to it.

www.mpex.com

Great customer service if you get to know someone there. Web ordering 
is OK, not always as good.

Best,
Michael

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Randy Rancier" 
<randy_rancier2004@...> wrote:
>
> 
> I suppose one could use both the HP Gray and Light Gray inks along 
with the HP PK.  I 
> supposed I could put the light gray ink in the Y position instead of 
the glop if you thought 
> I might not need the glop with this approach.  But I did noticed that 
the HP Z3100 inkset 
> also has a glop included, so the glop might still be required; 
perhaps it is only required 
> for the "extra" glossy media.  Again, what are your thoughts on this.
> 
Randy, having used the B9180 fairly extensively it is my experience 
that the HP inkset really needs GO to avoid GD on all PK papers when 
just using black and gray inks. GD does not show up using the full 
color inkset to print BW but does so badly when just using the grays. I 
guess that is why the wide carriage HP printers have GO on board.

Much thanks for your replies. I've decided to experiment by diluting the HP PK with glop  
hoping that it will help or eliminate having to use glop from the Y position with other UT-14 
inks on the 1400 as mentioned earlier in this thread.

Give me a week or two and I'll report on my results of using the HP PK for the cool PK and a 
30% dilution of HP PK and 70% glop for the cool Light PK.  Otherwise, for those of us wanting 
a better cool LT PK will have to use the C-6 base with a coat of glop.
Randy

> > 
> Randy, having used the B9180 fairly extensively it is my experience 
> that the HP inkset really needs GO to avoid GD on all PK papers when 
> just using black and gray inks. GD does not show up using the full 
> color inkset to print BW but does so badly when just using the grays. I 
> guess that is why the wide carriage HP printers have GO on board.
>

"Randy Rancier" <randy_rancier2004@...> wrote:
>
> Paul, rather than diluting the HP PK with glop as I had 
> discussed with you a couple of days 
> ago in order to try to reduce the bronzing and gloss 
> differential, I was thinking that using 
> the other gray inks in the HP Z3100 inkset might work better.

The availability of the HP grey inks is part of why I like their PK.  
Those who do not want to deal with diluting can just pony up the 
bucks for the HP OEM inks.  They appear to use the usual 
dilutions/densities, so the workflows should be rather transferable.

Be aware, however, that the HP grey inks also suffer from bronzing.  
I think the PK black only might be the most free of it, probably due 
to the high density of the inks.  I think I found the same thing with 
MIS PK.

> If I was going to try this with just one of the gray inks 
> along with the HP PK in the 1400, 
> which would you recommend using along with the HP PK; 
> the HP Gray, or the HP Light Gray?

I think the 1400 is smoth enough to just use an LK, but some do think 
an LLK makes a visible difference.

> I suppose one could use both the HP Gray and Light Gray inks 
> along with the HP PK.  

Yes.

> I supposed I could put the light gray ink in the Y position 
> instead of the glop if you thought 
> I might not need the glop with this approach.

The HP inks bronze, so you may want glop in the printer.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Thanks Paul for your response.  I'm sure you saw by my last response that i'm going to try 
the diluting HP PK with the glop route and see how that works!  I figure as long as they 
mix well, stays in solution and doesn't clog that it should work; I guess that is a lot of if's, 
but I'll keep my fingers crossed.

If you get a chance and don' mind, would you check and see how the HP PK mixes with 
glop, I would certainly appreciate it; it will be a few days before I will get a chance to mix 
the solution up myself.  If not, are there any mix test I could do myself?  I don't have any 
lab equipment other than some syringes.  I would hate for it to clog the heads.  If it does 
clog, is it possible to unclog it?
Randy

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark" <pr_roark@...> wrote:

>
> "Randy Rancier" <randy_rancier2004@> wrote:
> >
> > Paul, rather than diluting the HP PK with glop as I had 
> > discussed with you a couple of days 
> > ago in order to try to reduce the bronzing and gloss 
> > differential, I was thinking that using 
> > the other gray inks in the HP Z3100 inkset might work better.
> 
> The availability of the HP grey inks is part of why I like their PK.  
> Those who do not want to deal with diluting can just pony up the 
> bucks for the HP OEM inks.  They appear to use the usual 
> dilutions/densities, so the workflows should be rather transferable.
> 
> Be aware, however, that the HP grey inks also suffer from bronzing.  
> I think the PK black only might be the most free of it, probably due 
> to the high density of the inks.  I think I found the same thing with 
> MIS PK.
> 
> > If I was going to try this with just one of the gray inks 
> > along with the HP PK in the 1400, 
> > which would you recommend using along with the HP PK; 
> > the HP Gray, or the HP Light Gray?
> 
> I think the 1400 is smoth enough to just use an LK, but some do think 
> an LLK makes a visible difference.
> 
> > I suppose one could use both the HP Gray and Light Gray inks 
> > along with the HP PK.  
> 
> Yes.
> 
> > I supposed I could put the light gray ink in the Y position 
> > instead of the glop if you thought 
> > I might not need the glop with this approach.
> 
> The HP inks bronze, so you may want glop in the printer.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>