Digital BW, The Print

I've been out of the loop for a while, just wondering if there has
been any improvement on the dye ink front. I know what Claria can do,
and somewhat familiar with Vivera, but what about third party dyes?
Unfortunately Claria is not available in large format sizes that would
make it more economical, and Vivera has too much metamerism for my tastes.

My first concern is the office printer I just bought, but office and
art both need to try and meet some minimum standards for longevity. I
really don't want to have to resort to pigment inks in the office
printer unless I absolutely have to since there are a few types of
papers that do not work well with the pigment inks, and I really want
to be able to use those papers. Also the cleaning and upkeep on an all
in one printer is just plain too hard for the pigments, getting back
to clean the wiper can be an all day thing. On the flip side I can't
afford to use the printer like I need to use it if I use the tiny
little Claria carts, so a bottle system is in order.

I assume from the lack of discussion that there really hasn't been
much ground made on the dye ink longevity front, so I probably haven't
missed anything. Just thought I would check to make sure. Especially
when I see that MIS has the D2 dyes that sell for twice the price of
the Image Specialists dyes, I have to question why the expense since
both probably fade in a very short time on matte papers.

The last time I looked at the Lyson monochrome set, they had so much
metamerism that I had to laugh, so pretty much anything they offer is
out unless someone has a really strong recommendation.

My first priority is color inks (6 colors) and next would be a
monochrome version if a suitable base could be found. Color is just
easier to deal with to start ssince that is what the printer is set to
use so I can get multiple duties while testing.

Greg wrote:
> I've been out of the loop for a while, just wondering if there has
> been any improvement on the dye ink front. 

Wouldn't it be nice to have a monochrome dye ink set? Solve all our 
problems but one -- longevity. But supposedly you can get a pretty long 
lived dye -- we should be able to beat the dyes in C prints for example 
since that technology is so old. It sure would solve the matte / glossy 
dilemma too -- excellent Dmax on either paper without changing inks. 
Eliminate the need for GLOP. Improved surface properties like scuff 
resistance. Less clogging. All that.

So... where *are* the monochrome dye inks? Or the full color dye inks? 
Should solve the dark gamut width problems too, along with the other 
advantages listed above.

I'd buy it if it were available. And yes, I *do* have an Epson 1400 with 
Claria inks. Amazingly good image quality. Would make a good proof 
printer, but I want bigger prints that it can make.
--
Bruce Watson

Hi Greg,
here's the Lyson page for the Quad Black ink:
http://www.lyson.com/photo/product_details.asp?id=3

Is there anyone with experience who can comment on this inkset?

Richard

At 08:45 a.m. Monday 9/02/2009, you wrote:

>Greg wrote:
>> I've been out of the loop for a while, just wondering if there has
>> been any improvement on the dye ink front. 
>
>Wouldn't it be nice to have a monochrome dye ink set? Solve all our 
>problems but one -- longevity. But supposedly you can get a pretty long 
>lived dye -- we should be able to beat the dyes in C prints for example 
>since that technology is so old. It sure would solve the matte / glossy 
>dilemma too -- excellent Dmax on either paper without changing inks. 
>Eliminate the need for GLOP. Improved surface properties like scuff 
>resistance. Less clogging. All that.
>
>So... where *are* the monochrome dye inks? Or the full color dye inks? 
>Should solve the dark gamut width problems too, along with the other 
>advantages listed above.

--
www.richardsmallfield.com 

   "Men are conservatives when they are least vigorous,
   or when they are most luxurious.  They are conservatives 
   after dinner."
   --Ralph Waldo Emerson

Richard Smallfield wrote:
> Hi Greg,
> here's the Lyson page for the Quad Black ink:
> http://www.lyson.com/photo/product_details.asp?id=3
>
> Is there anyone with experience who can comment on this inkset?
>
> Richard

Unless those are new and I doubt they are they have just a horrific 
reputation. About six or seven years ago they exhibited metamerism 
that's never been equaled. Rumor had it they were just color ink mixes, 
not actually monochrome inks -- that is, cyan+magenta+yellow to make 
gray. Thus the huge metamerism problem. And they had a reputation for 
clogging too, probably an ink base incompatibility problem. Hard to say. 
That's just what I remember. I'm surprised they are still available. 
That's interesting all by itself.
--
Bruce Watson

At 09:50 a.m. Monday 9/02/2009, you wrote:
>Unless those are new and I doubt they are they have just a horrific 
>reputation. About six or seven years ago they exhibited metamerism 
>that's never been equaled.

Great, I'll buy them immediately then:)

Richard

--
www.richardsmallfield.com 

   "Ya know, Mo, my mom once said something that really stuck with me. She
   said 'Homer, your a big disappointment' and God bless her soul,
   she was really onto something."
   --Homer Simpson

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Richard
Smallfield <r.smallfield@...> wrote:
>
> At 09:50 a.m. Monday 9/02/2009, you wrote:
> >Unless those are new and I doubt they are they have just a horrific 
> >reputation. About six or seven years ago they exhibited metamerism 
> >that's never been equaled.
> 
> Great, I'll buy them immediately then:)
> 
> Richard
> 
> --
> www.richardsmallfield.com 


I will go out on a limb and summarize the Lyson monochrome inks...
They are complete JUNK! I received one of their newest Digital
Darkroom prints from their new wonderful monochrome ink set... Not
only was the metamerism worse than the HP 130 dye printer, but the
print had obvious lines where the ink obviously didn't spray
correctly. The green to magenta metamerism shift actually made me laugh.

The Claria is almost OK on matte papers, and clearly good on semi and
gloss papers, as well as having really good fade resistance. But those
little tiny carts will break me too fast when I have 500 pages of a
manual to print. On the old CX6600 I often went through 2 black carts
worth of ink in a day just printing manuals. If I could buy Claria in
220ml carts, I might just keep with Epson ink in the printer.

In 18 pages of google I only found one so called archival dye ink
besides the Lyson inks http://www.image-alchemy.com/product15.htm I'm
sure it is probably only as good as all the other bulk dye inks from
decent companies, but archival is probably a real stretch (though they
claim Blue Wool 6 ratings).

As long as Claria has been on the market, I would have kind of
expected something that performs as well to be available in bulk by now.

Search the archives for Lyson Quads or Small Gamut. Comments there. 
Not good. Horrible metamerism. Avoid in my opinion.

j


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Richard 
Smallfield <r.smallfield@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Greg,
> here's the Lyson page for the Quad Black ink:
> http://www.lyson.com/photo/product_details.asp?id=3
> 
> Is there anyone with experience who can comment on this inkset?
> 
> Richard
> 
> At 08:45 a.m. Monday 9/02/2009, you wrote:
> 
> >Greg wrote:
> >> I've been out of the loop for a while, just wondering if there 
has
> >> been any improvement on the dye ink front. 
> >
> >Wouldn't it be nice to have a monochrome dye ink set? Solve all 
our 
> >problems but one -- longevity. But supposedly you can get a pretty 
long 
> >lived dye -- we should be able to beat the dyes in C prints for 
example 
> >since that technology is so old. It sure would solve the matte / 
glossy 
> >dilemma too -- excellent Dmax on either paper without changing 
inks. 
> >Eliminate the need for GLOP. Improved surface properties like 
scuff 
> >resistance. Less clogging. All that.
> >
> >So... where *are* the monochrome dye inks? Or the full color dye 
inks? 
> >Should solve the dark gamut width problems too, along with the 
other 

> >advantages listed above.
> 
> --
> www.richardsmallfield.com 
> 
>    "Men are conservatives when they are least vigorous,
>    or when they are most luxurious.  They are conservatives 
>    after dinner."
>    --Ralph Waldo Emerson
>

What ever happened to the Nanochrome inks? Just spent two hours going
back through old posts to see if I had missed anything on any dye
inks, and ran back across the Nanochromes. Inkvillage seems to be
gone, and I don't find any other solid references on google.

I remember that there was word of changing manufacturers to get it
right, or on changing the formula to make it better, but nothing in a
while. Just wondering if anyone has kept up with John and what he is
working on to see if there is something else to be had.

On Feb 8, 2009, at 9:18 PM, john dean wrote:

>
> Search the archives for Lyson Quads or Small Gamut. Comments there.
> Not good. Horrible metamerism. Avoid in my opinion.
>





Add to that:  clog like mad.  Is Lyson even in business still?  They  
went from being the earliest 3rd party ink company I was aware of, and  
having some cred because of that, to being just some weird fringe  
outfit.  Why anyone would use their inks escapes me.  Wait a minute, I  
used their inks.  Note:  past tense.

James

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Feb 8, 2009, at 9:25 PM, Greg wrote:

> What ever happened to the Nanochrome inks?
>



I was wondering that recently myself.  There you go:  one day, the  
holy grail/answer to everything, the next... just a lost piece of e  
mail... but your prints last forever, right?  :   )

James

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, James Irelan
<james@...> wrote:
>  Is Lyson even in business still?  They  
> went from being the earliest 3rd party ink company I was aware of, and  
> having some cred because of that, to being just some weird fringe  
> outfit.  Why anyone would use their inks escapes me.  Wait a minute, I  
> used their inks.  Note:  past tense.
> 
>

They are now owned buy Nazdar

yeah?  I don't know the name Nazdar...  wonder if they destroy  
printers, too...    :   )

James


On Feb 8, 2009, at 9:46 PM, Greg wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, James Irelan
> <james@...> wrote:
> > Is Lyson even in business still? They
> > went from being the earliest 3rd party ink company I was aware of,  
> and
> > having some cred because of that, to being just some weird fringe
> > outfit. Why anyone would use their inks escapes me. Wait a minute, I
> > used their inks. Note: past tense.
> >
> >
>
> They are now owned buy Nazdar
>
>
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

While we're on the subject of dye inks, four or five years ago, people were using the HP 59 tritone greyscale dye ink cartridges in HP printers. 

It was thought by some - Wilhelm and HP - that these were very archival.

Well I used them too and they haven't lasted well. They are decidedly green looking and the Ultrachrome OEM inks with QTR have lasted far better.

If HP can't do it, why should anyone else be able to?
Richard

____________
www.richardsmallfield.com 

   "This above all: to thine own self be true.
   And it must follow, as the night the day, 
   Thou canst not then be false to any man." 
   --Shakespeare, Hamlet I:3

James Irelan wrote:
> yeah?  I don't know the name Nazdar...  wonder if they destroy  
> printers, too...    :   )

Nazdar used to be a supplier of silkscreen products and 
probably still is.
At the time they bought Lyson it must have been for their 
(Eco) solvent inks, the sublimation inks etc.

For a short period Lyson build a reputation with its inks 
for Iris printers, when the switch to Epson models started 
they made a mess of that reputation in the pro field, they 
continued to sell a lot to people that were less well 
informed. After Wilhelm proved they were bad the ads in 
Europe for Fotonic ink contained at least a year longer the 
same misleading information on fade resistance . Their web 
pages on fade resistance stayed much longer and had a reader 
confusing mix from results done by Lysonic on 6 ink models 
and Fotonic on 4 ink models. I have often warned about that. 
Forget Lyson in general.


-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst


|  Dinkla Grafische Techniek  |
|     www.pigment-print.com    |
|             ( unvollendet )            |

It's looking like I'll just have to go with the Image Specialists inks
that come with the new CIS for a little while. Just have to wait for
something better to arrive which will hopefully be soon.

Richard Smallfield writ:

> While we're on the subject of dye inks, four or five years ago,  
> people were using the HP 59 tritone greyscale dye ink cartridges in  
> HP printers.
>
> It was thought by some - Wilhelm and HP - that these were very  
> archival.
>
> Well I used them too and they haven't lasted well. They are  
> decidedly green looking and the Ultrachrome OEM inks with QTR have  
> lasted far better.
>
> If HP can't do it, why should anyone else be able to?

Actually, they did:

http://tinyurl.com/ccxfzr

(I think my review is still in there someplace.)

This replaced both an Epson 2200 and an Epson 1160 which I loaded up  
with�surprise!�Lyson Quad Black Neutral ink carts. All I'll say here  
about the Lyson/1160 setup here is that, when it worked, it looked  
awfully good, especially on the notoriously tough-to-find Lyson  
Darkroom Range glossy paper, which managed to nail that ferrotyped- 
glossy look and feel quite nicely. When it *didn't* work, it was  
awful...which it was about half the time at least. When the 1160  
clogged, it clogged DEFINITIVELY, rendering the printer all but  
useless for days at a time. When I discovered the 8750, I ditched  
both printers as quickly as I could.

I've been using the 8750 ever since, and have been very, very happy  
with the results, especially black-and-white. I can move freely  
between glossy, semi-gloss and matte (yes, principally using HP's  
Premium/Premium Plus papers), although I rarely print matte these  
days. It takes a day or two for the prints to properly  
"settle" (we're talking swellable-surface papers here), but there are  
virtually *none* of the nasties that usually plague glossy b/w  
inkjets...and the kicker is, this is when using just the three black/ 
grey inks. No need for Composite printing (using all inks) as on the  
B9180. No metamerism, no bronzing, no gloss differential.  And I can  
print up to 13" x 19".

Caveats? A few:

- The carts are the old-school combination carts, which means smaller  
ink capacity. On the upside, they offer a larger grey cart as an  
option.  No CIS/CFS option. For me, the fact that I waste relatively  
little ink and paper getting the results I want largely compensates  
for this.

- Wilhelm gives the printer *very* good marks for "archival"  
lightfastness, but not waterfastness: the prints are still more  
vulnerable to water than pigment prints. Again, this I can deal with.  
(Really, you don't want water touching *any* fine print, regardless  
of materials.)

- HP stopped producing this printer a handful of months ago. I might  
actually be looking for one to mothball as a backup. I like it that  
much.

If only they made a true successor to it. Or, better still a version  
along the lines of Epson's 3800. (I know, it's silly, but that's what  
I was told when I asked for a "bigger and better version" of HP's  
7960. ;-)


- Barrett

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Greg" 
<dfaprinting@...> wrote:
>
> It's looking like I'll just have to go with the Image Specialists inks
> that come with the new CIS for a little while. Just have to wait for
> something better to arrive which will hopefully be soon.
>


I loaded the OCP "Claria match" dye inks in a 7600 and used them for 
proofing for a while:

http://www.rjettek.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/59_108/products_id
/505

I never tested them for longevity. But, they have more testing 
information than most 3rd party manufacturers.

You can buy them from RJet Tek in the US. I think a 1 liter set of 6 
inks was $67 with shipping?

I still used the Epson K3's for final/archival output.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Michael T.
Murphy" <uriel_bear@...> wrote:

> 
> 
> I loaded the OCP "Claria match" dye inks in a 7600 and used them for 
> proofing for a while:
> 
> http://www.rjettek.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/59_108/products_id
> /505
> 
> I never tested them for longevity. But, they have more testing 
> information than most 3rd party manufacturers.
> 
> You can buy them from RJet Tek in the US. I think a 1 liter set of 6 
> inks was $67 with shipping?
> 
> I still used the Epson K3's for final/archival output.


Any idea who sells these in the USA? Might be worth trying some to see
what they will do in the window. The only thing I really don't like
about there testing is that they are not spraying the inks on the
paper, they are using some sort of a knife to spread the inks across
the paper, and this has been shown to give false values in the fade
testing because this loads the paper with a lot more ink than a jet
will fire. But then again we are talking about dye inks here so how
much can I really expect.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Greg"
<dfaprinting@...> wrote:
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Michael T.
> Murphy" <uriel_bear@> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > 
> > I loaded the OCP "Claria match" dye inks in a 7600 and used them for 
> > proofing for a while:
> > 
> >
http://www.rjettek.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/59_108/products_id
> > /505
> > 


Just an update... OCP can not/will not sell me small samples of
product and I'm not interested in buying 500ml of each color right
now. I may contact RJettek and see if they will help me out. Obviously
I am remaining extremely skeptical about the performance of the OCP
dye inks since they suggest them to be as fade resistant as Claria.
Maybe they did it, maybe it is just hype, but it looks like I may not
test them at all. Too bad too because I found a place to buy Blue Wool
test cards, and they are only about $15 each card. It may not be our
preferred standard, but it is some kind of dose meter. I have some
information on comparing Blue Wool steps to hours in an Atlas machine,
but it is on my computer at home. If anyone want the information on
Blue Wool, please change the subject line accordingly.

So at this time, I can not find much of anything about these OCP inks,
and as such I can not put my stamp of approval on them until I test
them for longevity.

Greg wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Greg"
> <dfaprinting@...> wrote:
>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Michael T.
>> Murphy" <uriel_bear@> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I loaded the OCP "Claria match" dye inks in a 7600 and used them for 
>>> proofing for a while:
>>>
>>>
> http://www.rjettek.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/59_108/products_id
>>> /505
>>>
> 
> 
> Just an update... OCP can not/will not sell me small samples of
> product and I'm not interested in buying 500ml of each color right
> now. I may contact RJettek and see if they will help me out. Obviously
> I am remaining extremely skeptical about the performance of the OCP
> dye inks since they suggest them to be as fade resistant as Claria.
> Maybe they did it, maybe it is just hype, but it looks like I may not
> test them at all. Too bad too because I found a place to buy Blue Wool
> test cards, and they are only about $15 each card. It may not be our
> preferred standard, but it is some kind of dose meter. I have some
> information on comparing Blue Wool steps to hours in an Atlas machine,
> but it is on my computer at home. If anyone want the information on
> Blue Wool, please change the subject line accordingly.
> 
> So at this time, I can not find much of anything about these OCP inks,
> and as such I can not put my stamp of approval on them until I test
> them for longevity.
> 
> 

OCP Germany has a web sale system but there's little 
available through it right now, lots of inks in 
"development" but that could also be related to chip issues.
http://www.ocp-online.com/

A friend got several cans of OCP compatible ink for his 9800 
to test them out. Worked perfectly, no sign of pigment 
settling in the cans either after a longer period. He wasn't 
that happy with the black density though and asked for a 
denser variety. Loaded it and in the same week the head was 
definitely lost, no way to get the black back again. He 
found it difficult to complain given the generous supply of ink.

Greg, the Vivera dye ink as used in the Designjet 130 is 
available in larger carts, 69 ml HP 85 cart, 45 Eurocents ex 
VAT a ML (0,60 $ ?). Not a third party price but at least 
Wilhelm and Image Engineering tested them, choices of 
suitable paper limited but that will not be different with 
Claria. The Designjet 130 uses a 6 color system.  It is an 
experiment to use them in an Epson dye printer but given 
Paul's experience with the Vivera pigment worked well so far 
.......
A similar choice is available for Epson Durabrite inks, the 
desktop models have small carts but there are now two new A4 
office models with larger carts, B500DN and B300. Durabrite 
inks in carts from 57 to almost 200 ML (the last black 
only). I have no idea what they will cost a ML in the US but 
it could be another ink source for cheaper Durabrite printer 
models.

-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst


|  Dinkla Grafische Techniek  |
|     www.pigment-print.com    |
|             ( unvollendet )            |

If you are looking for inks for your eposn printer if it is Claria or 
any other inks contact Gemini Colours     gemini@gemini-
colours.com      they will sale you any thing from 250 up wards they 
even might go below this 



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla 
<edinkla@...> wrote:
>
> Greg wrote:
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Greg"
> > <dfaprinting@> wrote:
> >> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Michael T.
> >> Murphy" <uriel_bear@> wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>> I loaded the OCP "Claria match" dye inks in a 7600 and used 
them for 
> >>> proofing for a while:
> >>>
> >>>
> > 
http://www.rjettek.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/59_108/products_
id
> >>> /505
> >>>
> > 
> > 
> > Just an update... OCP can not/will not sell me small samples of
> > product and I'm not interested in buying 500ml of each color right
> > now. I may contact RJettek and see if they will help me out. 
Obviously
> > I am remaining extremely skeptical about the performance of the 
OCP
> > dye inks since they suggest them to be as fade resistant as 
Claria.
> > Maybe they did it, maybe it is just hype, but it looks like I may 
not
> > test them at all. Too bad too because I found a place to buy Blue 
Wool
> > test cards, and they are only about $15 each card. It may not be 
our
> > preferred standard, but it is some kind of dose meter. I have some
> > information on comparing Blue Wool steps to hours in an Atlas 
machine,
> > but it is on my computer at home. If anyone want the information 
on
> > Blue Wool, please change the subject line accordingly.
> > 
> > So at this time, I can not find much of anything about these OCP 
inks,
> > and as such I can not put my stamp of approval on them until I 
test

> > them for longevity.
> > 
> > 
> 
> OCP Germany has a web sale system but there's little 
> available through it right now, lots of inks in 
> "development" but that could also be related to chip issues.
> http://www.ocp-online.com/
> 
> A friend got several cans of OCP compatible ink for his 9800 
> to test them out. Worked perfectly, no sign of pigment 
> settling in the cans either after a longer period. He wasn't 
> that happy with the black density though and asked for a 
> denser variety. Loaded it and in the same week the head was 
> definitely lost, no way to get the black back again. He 
> found it difficult to complain given the generous supply of ink.
> 
> Greg, the Vivera dye ink as used in the Designjet 130 is 
> available in larger carts, 69 ml HP 85 cart, 45 Eurocents ex 
> VAT a ML (0,60 $ ?). Not a third party price but at least 
> Wilhelm and Image Engineering tested them, choices of 
> suitable paper limited but that will not be different with 
> Claria. The Designjet 130 uses a 6 color system.  It is an 
> experiment to use them in an Epson dye printer but given 
> Paul's experience with the Vivera pigment worked well so far 
> .......
> A similar choice is available for Epson Durabrite inks, the 
> desktop models have small carts but there are now two new A4 
> office models with larger carts, B500DN and B300. Durabrite 
> inks in carts from 57 to almost 200 ML (the last black 
> only). I have no idea what they will cost a ML in the US but 
> it could be another ink source for cheaper Durabrite printer 
> models.
> 
> -- 
> Met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst
> 
> 
> |  Dinkla Grafische Techniek  |
> |     www.pigment-print.com    |
> |             ( unvollendet )            |
>

robertg491 wrote:
> If you are looking for inks for your eposn printer if it is Claria or 
> any other inks contact Gemini Colours     gemini@gemini-
> colours.com      they will sale you any thing from 250 up wards they 
> even might go below this 

Not just anything in quantity but quality as well I guess, 
that's not what is discussed.

-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,Ernst


|  Dinkla Grafische Techniek  |
|     www.pigment-print.com    |
|             ( unvollendet )            |

Enest
The quality is granteed 
Contact them and you will get more infomation of who they supply
you could be surprised.
Robert
-- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla 
<edinkla@...> wrote:
>
> robertg491 wrote:
> > If you are looking for inks for your eposn printer if it is 
Claria or 
> > any other inks contact Gemini Colours     gemini@gemini-
> > colours.com      they will sale you any thing from 250 up wards 
they 

> > even might go below this 
> 
> Not just anything in quantity but quality as well I guess, 
> that's not what is discussed.
> 
> -- 
> Met vriendelijke groeten,Ernst
> 
> 
> |  Dinkla Grafische Techniek  |
> |     www.pigment-print.com    |
> |             ( unvollendet )            |
>

robertg491 wrote:
> Enest
> The quality is granteed 
> Contact them and you will get more infomation of who they supply
> you could be surprised.
> Robert


I'm more interested where they get the ink from.
They have a line to Image Specialists, I had seen that before.
At the time we ordered from MIS I did a search on that but 
ink costs were lower if we ordered from MIS.
Didn't pay attention to their contact name though, almost 
the abbreviation you use :-)


http://www.image-specialists.com/about_us_global_dis.aspx

  Gemini Colours B.V.Western Europe
De Steeg 4-6
AP Schimmert 6333, The Netherlands
Tel: 0031-(0) 45-5419722
Fax: 0031-(0) 45-5431190
E-mails: gemini@...
Web links: www.gemini-colours.com

Contact: Robert Grafton
Products: Desktop and Wide Format Inkjet Inks


-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst


|  Dinkla Grafische Techniek  |
|     www.pigment-print.com    |
|             ( unvollendet )            |

Yes the ink do come from Image
and MIS also gets the ink from Image
If you looking at costs have you added shipping, Import duty and VAT
(BTW)
You might finfd out the Gemini is cheaper

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla 
<edinkla@...> wrote:

>
> robertg491 wrote:
> > Enest
> > The quality is granteed 
> > Contact them and you will get more infomation of who they supply
> > you could be surprised.
> > Robert
> 
> 
> I'm more interested where they get the ink from.
> They have a line to Image Specialists, I had seen that before.
> At the time we ordered from MIS I did a search on that but 
> ink costs were lower if we ordered from MIS.
> Didn't pay attention to their contact name though, almost 
> the abbreviation you use :-)
> 
> 
> http://www.image-specialists.com/about_us_global_dis.aspx
> 
>   Gemini Colours B.V.Western Europe
> De Steeg 4-6
> AP Schimmert 6333, The Netherlands
> Tel: 0031-(0) 45-5419722
> Fax: 0031-(0) 45-5431190
> E-mails: gemini@...
> Web links: www.gemini-colours.com
> 
> Contact: Robert Grafton
> Products: Desktop and Wide Format Inkjet Inks
> 
> 
> -- 
> Met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst
> 
> 
> |  Dinkla Grafische Techniek  |
> |     www.pigment-print.com    |
> |             ( unvollendet )            |
>

robertg491 wrote:
> Yes the ink do come from Image
> and MIS also gets the ink from Image
> If you looking at costs have you added shipping, Import duty and VAT
> (BTW)
> You might finfd out the Gemini is cheaper

I know.

At that time, till 2-3 years ago, we ordered gallons MIS 
7600 from MIS.
I did inquire about your price when you were just established.
Today I prefer the HP Z3100's frugal ink use, color 
consistency and low maintenance above the old Epson-MIS 
solutions. Similar policy for the other printshop that 
ordered together with me.

Anyway it is Greg in the US who is interested in a dye ink 
that is equivalent to the Claria, MIS doesn't have that:

quote

For Epson Claria R260, R280, R380, RX580, RX595, RX680, 1400 
Inkjet Printers

D2 Claria Compatable InkJet Printer Inks For Epson Claria 
Inkjet Printers - Inksupply.com

Dyebase Inks for Epson Claria Ink Printers - provide 
true-to-life prints, but do not perform to the same fade 
resistance specifications as the Epson Claria ink. These MIS 
inks meet similar performance measures as our other dyebase 
inks. The colors are bright and vibrant, but extended 
longevity should not be expected with the use of dye ink. If 
you find a source that makes claims to the archivability of 
their dyebase inks, please beware.

end of quote

Not the same fade resistance means not a Claria alternative.

-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst


|  Dinkla Grafische Techniek  |
|     www.pigment-print.com    |
|             ( unvollendet )            |

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "robertg491"
<gemcolour@...> wrote:
>
> Yes the ink do come from Image
> and MIS also gets the ink from Image
> If you looking at costs have you added shipping, Import duty and VAT
> (BTW)
> You might finfd out the Gemini is cheaper


For me in the USA, getting the Image Specialists inks directly from
MIS or from Ink Republic would be cheaper. I'm still a little angry
that OCP would not SELL me samples of their inks. Other manufacturers
are willing to send me inks for free. Makes me think that I don't want
to help OCP get more business.

And I definitely want to try and get the longest life out of the
prints on matte papers and be able to print on several different
semigloss office type papers and have the prints last. This printer is
not really for photo use, but what I test here could very well end up
in my 9500 later if I really like the results. And it could end up in
many other printers based on my findings, anyone remember the posts I
made about the Image Specialists Ultra Pro inks, that we later found
turned into the MIS Pro inks and Ebony black and MIS K4 ink set?

I should have something that is not yet for sale coming from a
company, hopefully it will work out well. I spoke to one of the
engineers/chemists yesterday and he is making arrangements for me to
get a new dye ink and a new pigment ink for testing. I purchased some
Merlin Natural paper and one other matte paper from Hawk Mountain
yesterday for the testing. I'll round up some Blue Wool cards this
weekend and check out my SpectroLino/Spectroscan to make sure it is
ready. The Spectrolino/scan lets me do 4x6 test cards and make a real
135 patch profile (or maybe a larger 350+ patch target) as well as
spectral measurements, so it is much better for comparisons (spread
sheets, graphs, profile gamut plots, etc.). It also takes some of the
visual ambiguity out of the testing (is it faded or not faded yet???).
Unfortunately I do not have a "fade chamber" so it will have to be
hung on the double pane low-e glass windows that I have, hence the
need for the Blue Wool cards to give me some kind of light dose meter
level. Through that glass it will not be the most accurate as I doubt
much UV gets through, but it is what I have for now and is better than
nothing. Anyone own an Atlas or Q Sun chanmber that I can borrow?

The Inkrepublic CIS is not yet here! Apparently they are having a hard
time keeping the parts in stock because they are selling them as
quickly as they call assemble them.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Greg" 
> 
> For me in the USA, getting the Image Specialists inks directly from
> MIS or from Ink Republic would be cheaper. I'm still a little angry
> that OCP would not SELL me samples of their inks. Other manufacturers
> are willing to send me inks for free. Makes me think that I don't want
> to help OCP get more business.
> 


I just sent an email back to the OCP Vice President that I had been
emailing and told him I am no longer interested in expending the
effort to test their inks.

Greg:
If you are interested, I still have some Ilford dye inks reformulated
for Epson printers available. (5 colors only)

This formulation has been tested by Wilhelm on Ilford swellable
polymer paper to yield 14-18 year life.

When we (Lincoln Inks & Paper) were formulating a 4 tone B&W set, the
blacks seemed bullet proof in south window fade tests we conducted.
Unfortunately, the tone of the B&W varied depending on the paper they
were printed on. 

If you are interested, email me at--
jnolly@...

John Nollendorfs

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Greg"
<dfaprinting@...> wrote:

>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "robertg491"
> <gemcolour@> wrote:
> >
> > Yes the ink do come from Image
> > and MIS also gets the ink from Image
> > If you looking at costs have you added shipping, Import duty and VAT
> > (BTW)
> > You might finfd out the Gemini is cheaper
> 
> 
> For me in the USA, getting the Image Specialists inks directly from
> MIS or from Ink Republic would be cheaper. I'm still a little angry
> that OCP would not SELL me samples of their inks. Other manufacturers
> are willing to send me inks for free. Makes me think that I don't want
> to help OCP get more business.
> 
> And I definitely want to try and get the longest life out of the
> prints on matte papers and be able to print on several different
> semigloss office type papers and have the prints last. This printer is
> not really for photo use, but what I test here could very well end up
> in my 9500 later if I really like the results. And it could end up in
> many other printers based on my findings, anyone remember the posts I
> made about the Image Specialists Ultra Pro inks, that we later found
> turned into the MIS Pro inks and Ebony black and MIS K4 ink set?
> 
> I should have something that is not yet for sale coming from a
> company, hopefully it will work out well. I spoke to one of the
> engineers/chemists yesterday and he is making arrangements for me to
> get a new dye ink and a new pigment ink for testing. I purchased some
> Merlin Natural paper and one other matte paper from Hawk Mountain
> yesterday for the testing. I'll round up some Blue Wool cards this
> weekend and check out my SpectroLino/Spectroscan to make sure it is
> ready. The Spectrolino/scan lets me do 4x6 test cards and make a real
> 135 patch profile (or maybe a larger 350+ patch target) as well as
> spectral measurements, so it is much better for comparisons (spread
> sheets, graphs, profile gamut plots, etc.). It also takes some of the
> visual ambiguity out of the testing (is it faded or not faded yet???).
> Unfortunately I do not have a "fade chamber" so it will have to be
> hung on the double pane low-e glass windows that I have, hence the
> need for the Blue Wool cards to give me some kind of light dose meter
> level. Through that glass it will not be the most accurate as I doubt
> much UV gets through, but it is what I have for now and is better than
> nothing. Anyone own an Atlas or Q Sun chanmber that I can borrow?
> 
> The Inkrepublic CIS is not yet here! Apparently they are having a hard
> time keeping the parts in stock because they are selling them as
> quickly as they call assemble them.
>

RJTech is the USA distributer.  They shopuld be able to help you.  They 
are in Colorado Springs. Give them a call. I know one of the guys there 
is an OCP VP.

I assumne you requested samples from the OCP home page in Germany. 
Sorry they are such a PITA!  ;>)

There is also a UK reseller, but the overseas shipping is a pain.

I have left over inks that I can send. I assume a small bottle of each 
would be OK?

E-mail me and we can chat.  Kid is on vacatiuon so a little distracted 
for a few days.

Best,
Michael

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Michael T.
Murphy" <uriel_bear@...> wrote:
>
> RJTech is the USA distributer.  They shopuld be able to help you.  They 
> are in Colorado Springs. Give them a call. I know one of the guys there 
> is an OCP VP.

Thanks, I assume that is the same person I emailed, he was listed on
the OCP site as the US regional sales rep.

>
> I assumne you requested samples from the OCP home page in Germany. 

I went straight for an email because it seemed most appropriate this way.


> Sorry they are such a PITA!  ;>)

Not your fault, just their loss.

> 
> I have left over inks that I can send. I assume a small bottle of each 
> would be OK?

Thanks but I'm moving on to other choices. I have a FREE dye and FREE
pigment inkset to test, as well as the Claria (again) and the inks
that come with the CIS which are supposed to be better than many of
the replacement dye inks (but still not archival). That's a lot of
junk to keep track of to watch and measure every XYZ number of days.
Hopefully I'll find something really good that will make a good place
to start for a monochrome set. Starting to wish the Spectrolino/scan
was a faster machine (but it is kind of fun to watch), it is easier
and smaller than anything I can produce for an i1 or Pulse.

I may also print some targets on nondescript office type multifunction
paper just to see what happens. Let's face it, that is really what
this particular RX680 is destined to use the most, so I might as well
test some to see what happens.

I've been using OCP now for over a year on the epson 4800 and just recently the 4880. I 
couldn't be happier with the results. The basic hue's are different than the epson claria  
inks but they profile beautifully. As for fade the ocp dye inks hold up well. I work in an 
industry that gives me access to fade testing equipment and on my latest inks (all dye) I 
have tested them and claria inks side by side using a xeon lamp for 8,16,24,48,96 hrs 
(step gauge) and it compares well with claria ink. So far my black and whites are fairing 
well with no noticeable color shifts from my displayed and control prints. Just my two 
cents and no I didn't get free ink from them for my testing.
Happy Printing
Bob

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Michael T. Murphy" 
<uriel_bear@...> wrote:

>
> RJTech is the USA distributer.  They shopuld be able to help you.  They 
> are in Colorado Springs. Give them a call. I know one of the guys there 
> is an OCP VP.
> 
> I assumne you requested samples from the OCP home page in Germany. 
> Sorry they are such a PITA!  ;>)
> 
> There is also a UK reseller, but the overseas shipping is a pain.
> 
> I have left over inks that I can send. I assume a small bottle of each 
> would be OK?
> 
> E-mail me and we can chat.  Kid is on vacatiuon so a little distracted 
> for a few days.
> 
> Best,
> Michael
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Mertlich"
<b_mertlich@...> wrote:
>
> I've been using OCP now for over a year on the epson 4800 and just
recently the 4880. I 
> couldn't be happier with the results. The basic hue's are different
than the epson claria  
> inks but they profile beautifully. As for fade the ocp dye inks hold
up well. I work in an 
> industry that gives me access to fade testing equipment and on my
latest inks (all dye) I 
> have tested them and claria inks side by side using a xeon lamp for
8,16,24,48,96 hrs 
> (step gauge) and it compares well with claria ink. So far my black
and whites are fairing 
> well with no noticeable color shifts from my displayed and control
prints. Just my two 
> cents and no I didn't get free ink from them for my testing.
> Happy Printing
> Bob
> 


What are you doing for the light and light light black inks? I didn't
see those listed in the "new" dye inks.

OCP is still crying that they can't send me anything except 500ml
each, and those would be more than $200 from Germany. So apparently
contacting their USA rep doesn't do any good since they really don't
want to do much in the USA.

And next time you are going to fire up a fade test on other materials,
might be nice if you would toss in a Blue Wool card from
http://www.conservationresources.com/Main/section_20/section20_20.htm
and make a note of how many hours it takes to fade each patch. I've
found numbers for a Q-Sun machine here, would be good to know how your
machine compares
http://www.ipa.org/files/08-IPA-Digital-Print-Forum-Addendum-1_2.pdf

If you had the room to put that card in so your employer doesn't have
the cost of a special test, the lamps can't be cheap and neither is
the electricity to run it.

> "Bob Mertlich" wrote:
>
> I've been using OCP now for over a year on the 
> epson 4800 and just recently the 4880. I 
> couldn't be happier with the results. 

Thanks for the feedback on longevity Bob, good to hear!  I never got 
around to testing.

I was very happy with the inks in my 7600.  I agree, the hues are 
different, but quite easy to profile.

I forget why I pulled them, needed the machine for another ink at the 
time.

Best,
Michael

> "Greg" wrote:
>
> OCP is still crying that they can't send me anything except 500ml
> each, and those would be more than $200 from Germany. 

These inks are fairly cheap. 16 oz, almost 500ml, is about $14.  Call 
it $100 shipped to buy a set of 6 inks from Colorado.

RJTek supplies refillers and sells $5K+ machines, etc., for refilling. 
I think they are used to larger volume sales.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Michael T.
Murphy" <uriel_bear@...> wrote:
>
> > "Greg" wrote:
> >
> > OCP is still crying that they can't send me anything except 500ml
> > each, and those would be more than $200 from Germany. 
> 
> These inks are fairly cheap. 16 oz, almost 500ml, is about $14.  Call 
> it $100 shipped to buy a set of 6 inks from Colorado.
> 
> RJTek supplies refillers and sells $5K+ machines, etc., for refilling. 
> I think they are used to larger volume sales.
>

If they could have pointed me to a reseller that had 4 ounce bottles,
I might have bought them. Based on what the say it would cost, it
would be about $25 and I would have gone for that. Heck if they could
have pointed me to pre-filled carts with this ink I might have gone
for that too.

I also ordered some cheapo refillable carts last night for the
testing. I decided that washing out the CIS for each ink was going to
be too much work. Hopefully they work well since the set of 6 with a
supposed anti-UV dye ink was only $25. Since I don't know anything
about the included ink, I'll just wash them out to use with the ink
that I know about. I went with the cheap ones because I didn't feel
like spending another $60+ on carts (from MIS) that will only be used
for a short time.

If these carts work, I'll post details for the other people who are
using the same carts. If they are junk I'll also post that result so
no one wastes their money.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Greg" <dfaprinting@...> wrote:

> If they could have pointed me to a reseller that had 4 ounce bottles,
> I might have bought them. Based on what the say it would cost, it
> would be about $25 and I would have gone for that. Heck if they could
> have pointed me to pre-filled carts with this ink I might have gone
> for that too.
> 
> I also ordered some cheapo refillable carts last night for the
> testing.

I for one would be interested in any reports for alternate carts.  As to your OCP issue, I 
don't know where you live but there is what looks to be a franchise called Rapid Refill that I 
think is connected with the Jet Tek people, or at least the one I visited in So. Colorado was.  
I think they will actually re-fill your own Epson cartridges after a flushing, and they look to 
have a drop off/re-mail network  Don't know the full connection from retailer to OCP 
though, you'd have to check.

Don't know if it's worth your while now but it looks like it might have been easy enough, 
too bad the folks at OCP wouldn't bother with that kind of info for you.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Greg" <dfaprinting@...> wrote:

> If they could have pointed me to a reseller that had 4 ounce bottles,
> I might have bought them. Based on what the say it would cost, it
> would be about $25 and I would have gone for that. Heck if they could
> have pointed me to pre-filled carts with this ink I might have gone
> for that too.
> 
> I also ordered some cheapo refillable carts last night for the
> testing.

I for one would be interested in any reports for alternate carts.  As to your OCP issue, I 
don't know where you live but there is what looks to be a franchise called Rapid Refill that I 
think is connected with the Jet Tek people, or at least the one I visited in So. Colorado was.  
I think they will actually re-fill your own Epson cartridges after a flushing, and they look to 
have a drop off/re-mail network  Don't know the full connection from retailer to OCP 
though, you'd have to check.

Don't know if it's worth your while now but it looks like it might have been easy enough, 
too bad the folks at OCP wouldn't bother with that kind of info for you.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Greg" <dfaprinting@...> wrote:
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Mertlich"
> <b_mertlich@> wrote:
> >
> > I've been using OCP now for over a year on the epson 4800 and just
> recently the 4880. I 
> > couldn't be happier with the results. The basic hue's are different
> than the epson claria  
> > inks but they profile beautifully. As for fade the ocp dye inks hold
> up well. I work in an 
> > industry that gives me access to fade testing equipment and on my
> latest inks (all dye) I 
> > have tested them and claria inks side by side using a xeon lamp for
> 8,16,24,48,96 hrs 
> > (step gauge) and it compares well with claria ink. So far my black
> and whites are fairing 
> > well with no noticeable color shifts from my displayed and control
> prints. Just my two 
> > cents and no I didn't get free ink from them for my testing.
> > Happy Printing
> > Bob
> > 
> 
> 
> What are you doing for the light and light light black inks? I didn't
> see those listed in the "new" dye inks.

I mix my own LLB and LB. LLB is 10cc of black to 180cc of clear base.
LB is 35cc black to 180cc clear base.
> 
> OCP is still crying that they can't send me anything except 500ml
> each, and those would be more than $200 from Germany. So apparently
> contacting their USA rep doesn't do any good since they really don't
> want to do much in the USA.

I'm getting 32 oz of 6 colors for under $200. But I've spent twice that to test ink sets and 
have found a few good ones. My problem has been consistency and so far OCP inks have 
had a consistent hue.

> 
> And next time you are going to fire up a fade test on other materials,
> might be nice if you would toss in a Blue Wool card from
> http://www.conservationresources.com/Main/section_20/section20_20.htm
> and make a note of how many hours it takes to fade each patch. I've
> found numbers for a Q-Sun machine here, would be good to know how your
> machine compares
> http://www.ipa.org/files/08-IPA-Digital-Print-Forum-Addendum-1_2.pdf
> 
> If you had the room to put that card in so your employer doesn't have
> the cost of a special test, the lamps can't be cheap and neither is
> the electricity to run it.
>
Actually the test is done off site and I piggy back it with litho ink testing. The lamps are 
xeon lamps and they are expensive. Next test goes out I'll check if they have room and 
cost factors involved. Maybe if there is room I can pull a favor or two. But in any event side 
by side tests don't tell me how long an ink will last just how well it compares to another 
one, and in this case claria.

Have fun
Bob