Digital BW, The Print

This question is directed at Paul, but feel feel to chime in with your knowledge and 
experience.

Paul, as you mention in your white paper on the UT14 inkset I would like develop a OTR 
curve and icc  with the UT14 inkset on the current baryta fiber based glossy papers such as 
ILFORD Gold Fibre Silk (IGFS) that are neutral.  I have recently become familiar with QTR, but I 
am not sure as how to set up the profile.  You were not specific on the nuts and bolts, but 
you did mention that you use the Eboni, glop and PK ink form the inkset.  It also sounds as 
though the PK is used for the darker tones and pure black, so I'm assuming that the Eboni is 
more neutral in tone and  is used for the highlights and mid-tones; you also mention that 
glop is used to hold the Eboni down, as I know from experience that Eboni on glossy paper 
will smear even after it is dry.

Do you have a QTR curve available for this setup?  If I need to develop my own what do I use 
as far as ink limits for the Eboni and the crossover points.  Also, I don't know the procedure 
for applying the GLOP along with the Eboni.

Any assistance is appreciated.
Randy Rancier

"Randy Rancier" <randy_rancier2004@...> wrote:


> Paul, as you mention in your white paper on the UT14 inkset 
> I would like develop a OTR 
> curve and icc with the UT14 inkset on the current baryta 
> fiber based glossy papers such as 
> ILFORD Gold Fibre Silk (IGFS) that are neutral.

I mostly supported the Epson driver workflow with a QTR "Create ICC-
RGB" approach to make ICCs that had Photoshop curves embedded in 
them.  The basic curves for this are in a Zip file.  I tend to leave 
the rip to those who are familiar with it. 

  
> I have recently become familiar with QTR, but I 
> am not sure as how to set up the profile.  
> You were not specific on the nuts and bolts,

True.

> you did mention that you use the Eboni, glop and PK ink 
> from the inkset. 

Yes, you can see the PS curves to see the general pattern of glop 
useage.  The PK and PKn are the dark midtone inks.

For the glossy papers, I recommend using no Eboni at all.


> ... glop is used to hold the Eboni down,...

You don't need to worry about that with the UT14 inkset.  Don't use 
any eboni on glossy papers.

One approach you might consider is making separate warm and cool 
profiles with just the 2 midtone inks.  Then combine them as needed 
with the sliders.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Randy Rancier" 
<randy_rancier2004@...> wrote:
>
> This question is directed at Paul, but feel feel to chime in with 
your knowledge and 
> experience.
> 
> Paul, as you mention in your white paper on the UT14 inkset I would 
like develop a OTR 
> curve and icc  with the UT14 inkset on the current baryta fiber 
based glossy papers such as 
> ILFORD Gold Fibre Silk (IGFS) that are neutral.  I have recently 
become familiar with QTR, but I 
> am not sure as how to set up the profile.  You were not specific on 
the nuts and bolts, but 
> you did mention that you use the Eboni, glop and PK ink form the 
inkset.  It also sounds as 
> though the PK is used for the darker tones and pure black, so I'm 
assuming that the Eboni is 
> more neutral in tone and  is used for the highlights and mid-tones; 
you also mention that 
> glop is used to hold the Eboni down, as I know from experience that 
Eboni on glossy paper 
> will smear even after it is dry.
> 
> Do you have a QTR curve available for this setup?  If I need to 
develop my own what do I use 
> as far as ink limits for the Eboni and the crossover points.  Also, 
I don't know the procedure 
> for applying the GLOP along with the Eboni.
> 
> Any assistance is appreciated.
> Randy Rancier
>
Randy/Paul/Anyone who can help
Its a steep learning curve and these threads help a lot, having said 
that all the terminolgy used confuses the beginners, I am sure. If I 
understand correctly the UT14 uses
1. Photoblack (PK)in the K slot
2. GLOP in Y position
3. M/LM/C/LC ( all diluted blacks or carbon as they say say!!!, I 
presume), when you say "no Eboni" on gloss paper does it mean "no K"? 
Therefore on gloss simply use the M/LM for warm and C/LC for Cool. Am 
I right? 
Further, to bring in "GLOP" on MATT (to keep the K down as said in 
Paul's thread) paper if a COPY_CURVE_Y=K is included in the ink desc 
file will it follow the PK ink? OR AM I TOTALLY ON THE WRONG TRACK!!!!
dileepa

Hi..

I'm using a UT14 settup with MIS UT14 inks, , and NO PK ink is used all..

EBONY ONLY goes into the K slot, and is used ONLY when the curve/profile calls for MATTE type paper....

Eddie Wiseman

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: dileepawijesundera 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 3:42 AM
  Subject: [Digital BW] Re: UT14 Glossy 100% Carbon Prints that are Neutral


  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Randy Rancier" 
  <randy_rancier2004@...> wrote:
  >
  > This question is directed at Paul, but feel feel to chime in with 
  your knowledge and 
  > experience.
  > 
  > Paul, as you mention in your white paper on the UT14 inkset I would 
  like develop a OTR 
  > curve and icc with the UT14 inkset on the current baryta fiber 
  based glossy papers such as 
  > ILFORD Gold Fibre Silk (IGFS) that are neutral. I have recently 
  become familiar with QTR, but I 
  > am not sure as how to set up the profile. You were not specific on 
  the nuts and bolts, but 
  > you did mention that you use the Eboni, glop and PK ink form the 
  inkset. It also sounds as 
  > though the PK is used for the darker tones and pure black, so I'm 
  assuming that the Eboni is 
  > more neutral in tone and is used for the highlights and mid-tones; 
  you also mention that 
  > glop is used to hold the Eboni down, as I know from experience that 
  Eboni on glossy paper 
  > will smear even after it is dry.
  > 
  > Do you have a QTR curve available for this setup? If I need to 
  develop my own what do I use 
  > as far as ink limits for the Eboni and the crossover points. Also, 
  I don't know the procedure 
  > for applying the GLOP along with the Eboni.
  > 
  > Any assistance is appreciated.
  > Randy Rancier
  >
  Randy/Paul/Anyone who can help
  Its a steep learning curve and these threads help a lot, having said 
  that all the terminolgy used confuses the beginners, I am sure. If I 
  understand correctly the UT14 uses
  1. Photoblack (PK)in the K slot
  2. GLOP in Y position
  3. M/LM/C/LC ( all diluted blacks or carbon as they say say!!!, I 
  presume), when you say "no Eboni" on gloss paper does it mean "no K"? 
  Therefore on gloss simply use the M/LM for warm and C/LC for Cool. Am 
  I right? 
  Further, to bring in "GLOP" on MATT (to keep the K down as said in 
  Paul's thread) paper if a COPY_CURVE_Y=K is included in the ink desc 
  file will it follow the PK ink? OR AM I TOTALLY ON THE WRONG TRACK!!!!
  dileepa


  

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "dileepawijesundera" 
<dileepa@...> wrote:
>
> If I 
> understand correctly the UT14 uses
> 1. Photoblack (PK)in the K slot
> 2. GLOP in Y position
> 3. M/LM/C/LC ( all diluted blacks or carbon as they say say!!!, I 
> presume), when you say "no Eboni" on gloss paper does it mean "no 
K"? 

Dileepa, I will try and help. 

Looking at the first page of Paul's PDF on this in inkset ( 
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/UT14.pdf ), I do not think you are 
entirely correct. Rather, Mk (Eboni) is in the K slot. A 100% carbon 
Photoblack (PK - presumably K4-PK) which produces warm tones is in 
the M & LM slots. A 60% dilution of non-100%-carbon PK (Presumably R2 
PK which comprises a blend of 10% blue pigments and 90% carbon) is in 
the C & LC slots. This latter PK produces cool tones.

> Therefore on gloss simply use the M/LM for warm and C/LC for Cool. 
Am 
> I right?

Yes, noting the inclusion of blue pigments to make cooler prints.  
 
> Further, to bring in "GLOP" on MATT (to keep the K down as said in 
> Paul's thread) paper if a COPY_CURVE_Y=K is included in the ink 
desc 
> file will it follow the PK ink? OR AM I TOTALLY ON THE WRONG 
TRACK!!!!

No, you will need no GLOP on matt paper. 

> dileepa
>

Paul, thanks so much for your reply.  That's good to know, I have already developed warm 
and cool curves.  I'm assuming if I want 100% carbon on IGFS that I will need to use 100% 
of the warm curve.  Only thing is the warm inks in the M and LM slot, (if you remember 
from earlier post my warm curve on IGFS uses only ink from the LM position), and is very 
warm, especially on IGFS.  I was hoping to achieve a more neutral print on IGFS using 100% 
carbon inks which was what I thought you were talking about in your white paper as is 
memtioned in the subject line of this post.  I had figured that the Eboni must have given a 
more neutral print on the IGFS with the GLOP holding the Eboni down and then finishing 
off with a coat or two of Premier Print Shield.  If we are not supposed to print with Eboni on 
glossy papers what is the purpose for the GLOP?  If things have changed since this inkset 
was developed perhaps a better use of the "Y" inkslot would be a lighter such as LLPK for 
smoother highlights.

Also, I am not very familiar with using the icc profiles along with the ACV curves in PS, and 
I believe I've read most if not all of your papers on the subject, is there someplace with a 
good description of the process or a step by step for developing or for that matter using 
these curves and profiles in PS.  I do understand that the ACV curves are presets in PS for 
curve and tone adjustments, and have played with them to familiarize myself with them.  I 
have a more detailed post outlining my questions on this subject that I had posted on the 
QuadTone forum, that I didn't get a response too on ICC profiles that I will post here after 
this post; so if you would take a look at that post before responding concerning my 
questions on the use of ACV curves I'd appreciate it.  Right now I'm more concerned with 
the first paragraph of this post.

I apologize for the multitude of questions, I'm just attempting to make the most out of my 
UT14 setup as it appears to be the most versital inkset for prints 13 inch wide and 
smaller.

Much Thanks,
Randy


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark" <pr_roark@...> wrote:

>
> "Randy Rancier" <randy_rancier2004@> wrote:
> 
> 
> > Paul, as you mention in your white paper on the UT14 inkset 
> > I would like develop a OTR 
> > curve and icc with the UT14 inkset on the current baryta 
> > fiber based glossy papers such as 
> > ILFORD Gold Fibre Silk (IGFS) that are neutral.
> 
> I mostly supported the Epson driver workflow with a QTR "Create ICC-
> RGB" approach to make ICCs that had Photoshop curves embedded in 
> them.  The basic curves for this are in a Zip file.  I tend to leave 
> the rip to those who are familiar with it. 
> 
>   
> > I have recently become familiar with QTR, but I 
> > am not sure as how to set up the profile.  
> > You were not specific on the nuts and bolts,
> 
> True.
> 
> > you did mention that you use the Eboni, glop and PK ink 
> > from the inkset. 
> 
> Yes, you can see the PS curves to see the general pattern of glop 
> useage.  The PK and PKn are the dark midtone inks.
> 
> For the glossy papers, I recommend using no Eboni at all.
> 
> 
> > ... glop is used to hold the Eboni down,...
> 
> You don't need to worry about that with the UT14 inkset.  Don't use 
> any eboni on glossy papers.
> 
> One approach you might consider is making separate warm and cool 
> profiles with just the 2 midtone inks.  Then combine them as needed 
> with the sliders.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

I've clarified in http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/UT14.pdf what the 
inks are.  C is PKN, LC is a dilute version. M is k4-PK, LM is LK (a 
dilute version of PK).  K is Eboni.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

"Randy Rancier" <randy_rancier2004@...> wrote:
>
> ...I'm assuming if I want 100% carbon on IGFS that I will 
> need to use 100% of the warm curve. 

You can, with more work, make a neutral image using Eboni (K), but 
it'll need spraying.  See page 10 of 
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/UT14.pdf 

> ... If we are not supposed to print with Eboni on glossy papers ...

It's just more work and not something a novice ought to try.  One can 
certainly combine Eboni, PK, glop and probably a post-printing spray 
to make a neutral, 100% carbon print.

> what is the purpose for the GLOP?  

It's often very handy to control the reflective artifacts that one 
sees with most pigments on glossy papers.  The UT14 artifacts are not 
as bad as many, but glop can still improve the results.

>... perhaps a better use of the "Y" inkslot would be a lighter 
> such as LLPK for smoother highlights.

That is certainly an option I point out. 

> I am not very familiar with using the icc profiles along 
> with the ACV curves in PS, ...

See http://www.paulroark.com/BW-
Info/Embedding_Photoshop_Curves_in_ICCs.pdf

The Epson driver with one of these ICCs makes not only a "color 
managed" (with respect to relative densities) workflow, but also a 
high bit pipeline to the paper, unlike the vast majority of workflows 
that people use in B&W.  

Hope this helps.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Thanks Paul for your response; some things I need to clarify further as noted below!

> I've clarified in http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/UT14.pdf what the
> inks are. C is PKN, LC is a dilute version. M is k4-PK, LM is LK (a
> dilute version of PK). K is Eboni.

Yes, I understand the inks and there placement.

> You can, with more work, make a neutral image using Eboni (K), but 
> it'll need spraying.  See page 10 of 
> http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/UT14.pdf 


Yes, this is exactly what I am wanting to do!


> It's just more work and not something a novice ought to try.  One can 
> certainly combine Eboni, PK, glop and probably a post-printing spray 
> to make a neutral, 100% carbon print.


Yes, I understood that from your paper on UT14, which I've read several times.  I don't 
mind post-print spraying or going the extra mile to learn how to do this.  I can develop 
my own curves in QTR, but I wasn't sure at what density to crossover from using the Eboni 
to the PK inks?

I'm also not exactly sure, but I think I have a good idea, as how to make sure the GLOP 
gets laid down with the Eboni; but if you're not that familiar with QTR I can inquire else 
where on this.


> 
> See http://www.paulroark.com/BW-
> Info/Embedding_Photoshop_Curves_in_ICCs.pdf
> 
> The Epson driver with one of these ICCs makes not only a "color 
> managed" (with respect to relative densities) workflow, but also a 
> high bit pipeline to the paper, unlike the vast majority of workflows 
> that people use in B&W.

I haven't seen this paper and I'm sure will help clarify my questions on using Photoshop 
curves in ICCs.

One final question: Does you profile "1400-IlfordGold-N-1-nca-rgb.icc", which i've 
downloaded from your site, use the Eboni (K) with GLOP in this profile for making neutral 
prints as discussed above?

Thanks again so much for your help,
Randy

"Randy Rancier" <randy_rancier2004@...> wrote:
>
>  ...
> > You can, with more work, make a neutral image using 
> > Eboni (K), but 
> > it'll need spraying.  See page 10 of 
> > http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/UT14.pdf 
> 
> 
> Yes, this is exactly what I am wanting to do!
> ... I wasn't sure at what density to crossover from using 
> the Eboni to the PK inks?

This may be the QTR profile I used:
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eb-IlfordGold-Spray-3.zip 


> One final question: Does you profile 
> "1400-IlfordGold-N-1-nca-rgb.icc", which i've 
> downloaded from your site, use the Eboni (K) with GLOP in 
> this profile for making neutral 
> prints as discussed above?

No, that uses the usual blended color inks in cool channel to make a 
neutral glossy print.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Thanks Paul for the QTR profile, I'll give it a try.  Could you possibly send the txt file used 
to create this profile below, so that I could see how it was created and possibly edit if 
needed for other glossy papers?

I also downloaded and read your paper on "Adjusting Monotone Photoshop Curves for 
Inset Control"  which answered most of my questions on how you create and use curves to 
control the inks with PS.  This is a must read for those wondering about how curves are 
used and created and also the paper "Embedding Photoshop Curves in ICCs" for how these 
curves are used to create ICC profiles.

Thanks,
Randy

> "Randy Rancier" <randy_rancier2004@> wrote:
> >
> >  ...
> > > You can, with more work, make a neutral image using 
> > > Eboni (K), but 
> > > it'll need spraying.  See page 10 of 
> > > http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/UT14.pdf 
> > 
> > 
> > Yes, this is exactly what I am wanting to do!
> > ... I wasn't sure at what density to crossover from using 
> > the Eboni to the PK inks?
> 
> This may be the QTR profile I used:
> http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eb-IlfordGold-Spray-3.zip 
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

"Randy Rancier" <randy_rancier2004@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks Paul for the QTR profile, I'll give it a try.  
> Could you possibly send the txt file used 
> to create this profile below, so that I could see how 
> it was created and possibly edit if 
> needed for other glossy papers?
> 


There is no more than is in the profile.  The curves were hand made.  
So the linearization reading is the only spectro text output that was 
used.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Thanks Paul, I didn't realize you could open quid & quad files as txt and view them; I thought 
they were binary files.  I'll take a look at the densities or curve data and see what I can figure 
out!  I may have a question or two once I try to figure out the curve data!

Thanks again,
Randy

> There is no more than is in the profile.  The curves were hand made.  
> So the linearization reading is the only spectro text output that was 
> used.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>