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Ansel Adams Archival Replicas

Ansel Adams Archival Replicas

2009-04-26 by pr_roark

I had an opportunity to see some samples of the new Ansel Adams "Archival Replicas" in Yosemite the other day.  See
http://www.anseladams.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=2290
for information on these digital prints that the Adams family trust is now selling.  They are generally believed to be HP Z3100-based prints.

The main think one notices about them is that the image is overmatted and there is no signature anywhere to be seen.  They look like silver prints, but then most of what we do does look that way under glass.

I didn't have a magnifier with me to see if they are using color inks (aside from the color inks that are part of the HP grey inks).

The main thing I noticed when viewing up close with standard reading glasses is that they are not very sharp.  I was not able to compare them side by side with the original silver prints, but with digital controls and printing, we're becoming so accustomed to very sharp enlargements that the lack of sharpness in these surprised me.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] Ansel Adams Archival Replicas

2009-04-26 by Ernst Dinkla

> The main thing I noticed when viewing up close with standard reading glasses is that they are not very sharp.  I was not able to compare them side by side with the original silver prints, but with digital controls and printing, we're becoming so accustomed to very sharp enlargements that the lack of sharpness in these surprised me.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com 
> 
> 

Paul,

Wasn't there a description on the website that suggested the scans were 
of original prints and not of the negatives ?
Sharpening on images based on that workflow may not be a good idea.

-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst


New: Dinkla Canvas Wrap Actions

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Re: [Digital BW] Ansel Adams Archival Replicas

2009-04-26 by Tyler Boley

actually the original prints are photographed with a digital back on a hassy
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla <edinkla@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> 
> 
> > The main thing I noticed when viewing up close with standard reading glasses is that they are not very sharp.  I was not able to compare them side by side with the original silver prints, but with digital controls and printing, we're becoming so accustomed to very sharp enlargements that the lack of sharpness in these surprised me.
> > 
> > Paul
> > www.PaulRoark.com 
> > 
> > 
> 
> Paul,
> 
> Wasn't there a description on the website that suggested the scans were 
> of original prints and not of the negatives ?
> Sharpening on images based on that workflow may not be a good idea.
> 
> -- 
> Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst
> 
> 
> New: Dinkla Canvas Wrap Actions
> 
> |      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
> |         www.pigment-print.com        |
> |                 ( unvollendet )                 |
>

Re: [Digital BW] Ansel Adams Archival Replicas

2009-04-26 by Alan Scharf

Notice that, at normal viewing distance, it doesn't make any difference. On the wall here, opposite "Moonrise", I have a van Gogh. Peering closely I see that it iss even less sharp -- yet still wonderful.

Alan Scharf
Saskatoon







  > The main thing I noticed when viewing up close with standard reading glasses is that they are not very sharp. I was not able to compare them side by side with the original silver prints, but with digital controls and printing, we're becoming so accustomed to very sharp enlargements that the lack of sharpness in these surprised me.
  > 
  > Paul



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Ansel Adams Archival Replicas

2009-04-26 by Gary Weaver

Ah, an inferior lens. That explaines it !!

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On 4/26/2009 at 9:00 PM Tyler Boley wrote:

>actually the original prints are photographed with a digital back on a
>hassy
>Tyler
>

RE: [Digital BW] Ansel Adams Archival Replicas

2009-04-26 by Mike Kirwan

I have just gotten back from spending three wonderful days in the valley,
and lo and behold the timing was right - the Dogwoods were in full bloom
this morning.
 
Sort of ironic and I purchased a  special edition "Dogwood Bloom" from the
Gallery and the fly sheet that came with it states "Printed by Allen Ross
from Ansel Adam's original negative" It is stunningly beautiful.
 
There was also a section that looked like inkjet prints of many sizes, they
were selling well, but did not compare to the special edition.
 
Back home in the Bay Area looking forward to framing and hanging my prize
 
Mike

  _____  
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of pr_roark
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 12:13 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Ansel Adams Archival Replicas





I had an opportunity to see some samples of the new Ansel Adams "Archival
Replicas" in Yosemite the other day. See
http://www.anselada
<http://www.anseladams.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=2290>
ms.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=2290
for information on these digital prints that the Adams family trust is now
selling. They are generally believed to be HP Z3100-based prints.

The main think one notices about them is that the image is overmatted and
there is no signature anywhere to be seen. They look like silver prints, but
then most of what we do does look that way under glass.

I didn't have a magnifier with me to see if they are using color inks (aside
from the color inks that are part of the HP grey inks).

The main thing I noticed when viewing up close with standard reading glasses
is that they are not very sharp. I was not able to compare them side by side
with the original silver prints, but with digital controls and printing,
we're becoming so accustomed to very sharp enlargements that the lack of
sharpness in these surprised me.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Ansel Adams Archival Replicas

2009-04-26 by Tom Baker

Who did the prints?
 
Tom Baker

--- On Sun, 4/26/09, pr_roark <pr_roark@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: pr_roark <pr_roark@...>
Subject: [Digital BW] Ansel Adams Archival Replicas
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, April 26, 2009, 12:13 PM








I had an opportunity to see some samples of the new Ansel Adams "Archival Replicas" in Yosemite the other day. See
http://www.anselada ms.com/index. asp?PageAction= VIEWPROD& ProdID=2290
for information on these digital prints that the Adams family trust is now selling. They are generally believed to be HP Z3100-based prints.

The main think one notices about them is that the image is overmatted and there is no signature anywhere to be seen. They look like silver prints, but then most of what we do does look that way under glass.

I didn't have a magnifier with me to see if they are using color inks (aside from the color inks that are part of the HP grey inks).

The main thing I noticed when viewing up close with standard reading glasses is that they are not very sharp. I was not able to compare them side by side with the original silver prints, but with digital controls and printing, we're becoming so accustomed to very sharp enlargements that the lack of sharpness in these surprised me.

Paul
www.PaulRoark. com 
















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] Ansel Adams Archival Replicas

2009-04-26 by Gary Wagner

Here is a link I found that interviews Ansel Adams grandson Matthew Adams.
He talks about the prints and how they are made. 

http://www.silberstudios.com/blog/?p=230

 

Gary Wagner
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of pr_roark
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 12:13 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Ansel Adams Archival Replicas

 






I had an opportunity to see some samples of the new Ansel Adams "Archival
Replicas" in Yosemite the other day. See
http://www.anseladams.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD
<http://www.anseladams.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=2290>
&ProdID=2290
for information on these digital prints that the Adams family trust is now
selling. They are generally believed to be HP Z3100-based prints.






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Ansel Adams Archival Replicas

2009-04-26 by Mark Savoia

That is THE most lame interview I have EVER seen. So unprofessional.  
Wow!

Mark
http://www.stillrivereditions.com
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Apr 26, 2009, at 7:02 PM, Gary Wagner wrote:

> Here is a link I found that interviews Ansel Adams grandson Matthew  
> Adams.
> He talks about the prints and how they are made.
>
> http://www.silberstudios.com/blog/?p=230
>
>
>
> Gary Wagner
>

Re: Ansel Adams Archival Replicas

2009-04-27 by Roger

I think the content is strong.  

They talked about using what sounds like a scanning back to digitize the prints and a printer with 4 blacks and gloss optimizer to print them.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Mark Savoia <mark@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> That is THE most lame interview I have EVER seen. So unprofessional.  
> Wow!
> 
> Mark
> http://www.stillrivereditions.com
> 
> On Apr 26, 2009, at 7:02 PM, Gary Wagner wrote:
> 
> > Here is a link I found that interviews Ansel Adams grandson Matthew  
> > Adams.
> > He talks about the prints and how they are made.
> >
> > http://www.silberstudios.com/blog/?p=230
> >
> >
> >
> > Gary Wagner
> >
>

Re: Ansel Adams Archival Replicas

2009-04-27 by Tyler Boley

The impression it gives to those involved in this stuff a long time is entry level at best, sorry. There are many ways to capture large pieces of art well, at high res and fidelity. 
Talk to anyone doing high end art reproductions with everything from Cruse scanners to Better Light scanning backs.
Also, there are no printers that use a GO and 4 blacks for a photo surface look. The HP does not use the MK in gloss mode. So even though the printer HAS 4 ks, it's using 3 Ks for this, or any other PK photo surface printing.
For the price point it sounds like they are trying to hit, printed matted and framed, I suspect they were limited in how much could be invested in it, and possibly this about what could be expected.
I think the unfortunate thing is the association with Ansel, who would have been obsessed with the bleeding edge, and insistant on nothing less than the best possible reproduction of his work. Not the off the shelf approach available at any pro shop and compromised out of the box solutions.
I saw that interview some weeks back, I have to agree with Mark. It's very disappointing to watch.
Regarding viewing distance.. with good photography, normal viewing distance is every distance.

There are so many talented experts they could have brought in to help set something like this up, it sounds like their input came from sales reps.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Roger" <rsmith02@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> I think the content is strong.  
> 
> They talked about using what sounds like a scanning back to digitize the prints and a printer with 4 blacks and gloss optimizer to print them.
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Mark Savoia <mark@> wrote:
> >
> > That is THE most lame interview I have EVER seen. So unprofessional.  
> > Wow!
> > 
> > Mark
> > http://www.stillrivereditions.com
> > 
> > On Apr 26, 2009, at 7:02 PM, Gary Wagner wrote:
> > 
> > > Here is a link I found that interviews Ansel Adams grandson Matthew  
> > > Adams.
> > > He talks about the prints and how they are made.
> > >
> > > http://www.silberstudios.com/blog/?p=230
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Gary Wagner
> > >
> >
>

RE: [Digital BW] Ansel Adams Archival Replicas

2009-04-27 by Emerick, David N

That is THE most lame interview I have EVER seen. So unprofessional.  
Wow!

Mark
http://www.stillrivereditions.com



WHAT A JOKE.

david


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Ansel Adams Archival Replicas

2009-04-27 by Tom Baker

How can they possibly make even an acceptable 30x40 print from a 4x6 print, let alone and exceptional print?
 
Tom Baker

--- On Sun, 4/26/09, pr_roark <pr_roark@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: pr_roark <pr_roark@...>
Subject: [Digital BW] Ansel Adams Archival Replicas
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, April 26, 2009, 12:13 PM








I had an opportunity to see some samples of the new Ansel Adams "Archival Replicas" in Yosemite the other day. See
http://www.anselada ms.com/index. asp?PageAction= VIEWPROD& ProdID=2290
for information on these digital prints that the Adams family trust is now selling. They are generally believed to be HP Z3100-based prints.

The main think one notices about them is that the image is overmatted and there is no signature anywhere to be seen. They look like silver prints, but then most of what we do does look that way under glass.

I didn't have a magnifier with me to see if they are using color inks (aside from the color inks that are part of the HP grey inks).

The main thing I noticed when viewing up close with standard reading glasses is that they are not very sharp. I was not able to compare them side by side with the original silver prints, but with digital controls and printing, we're becoming so accustomed to very sharp enlargements that the lack of sharpness in these surprised me.

Paul
www.PaulRoark. com 
















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Ansel Adams Archival Replicas

2009-04-27 by Ernst Dinkla

Tom Baker schreef:
> How can they possibly make even an acceptable 30x40 print from a 4x6 print, let alone and exceptional print?
>  
> Tom Baker

Without sharpening it is possible ..... if the viewer is at a distance
that makes it a 4x6 again.
With sharpening the texture artefacts of the original print would be
visible but enlarged ......... if the reproduction step was good enough.

And it is correct what Tyler mentions on the use of the "quad" inks,
gloss uses only the PK, Gray and Light Gray on the Z3100.

There was a thread on this some time ago on the LL forum:

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=29848&st=0

-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst


New: Dinkla Canvas Wrap Actions

|      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
|         www.pigment-print.com        |
|                 ( unvollendet )                 |

Re: [Digital BW] Ansel Adams Archival Replicas

2009-04-27 by john castronovo

Well there's your problem. Why not a digital scanning back for the best 
detail?

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tyler Boley"

actually the original prints are photographed with a digital back on a 
hassy

Re: [Digital BW] Ansel Adams Archival Replicas

2009-04-27 by Mark Savoia

Or just a good flat bed scanner? Aren't most of his original prints  
16x20 or less in size?

That interview reminds me of a Miss America Q&A, "I want peace in the  
world, and great looking prints for everyone, for sure".

Mark
http://www.stillrivereditions.com
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Apr 27, 2009, at 7:32 AM, john castronovo wrote:

> Well there's your problem. Why not a digital scanning back for the  
> best
> detail?
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tyler Boley"
>
> actually the original prints are photographed with a digital back on a
> hassy
>

Re: [Digital BW] Ansel Adams Archival Replicas

2009-04-27 by Gary Weaver

It was my guess the lens was too contrasty for copying graphic work of this sort.

gar

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On 4/27/2009 at 7:32 AM john castronovo wrote:

>Well there's your problem. Why not a digital scanning back for the best 
>detail?
>
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "Tyler Boley"
>
>actually the original prints are photographed with a digital back on a 
>hassy

Re: [Digital BW] Ansel Adams Archival Replicas

2009-04-27 by john castronovo

Nonsense, contrast is controllable; just poor technique. The job went to 
the lowest bidder or a friend and ultimately no one cared. Then again, 
maybe they didn't really want replicas of the originals. That could get 
to be a problem. The reproductions could actually wind up being (excuse 
me) equal to or better than the originals.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Gary Weaver"
It was my guess the lens was too contrasty for copying graphic work of 
this sort.

gar

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 4/27/2009 at 7:32 AM john castronovo wrote:

>Well there's your problem. Why not a digital scanning back for the best
>detail?
>
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "Tyler Boley"
>
>actually the original prints are photographed with a digital back on a
>hassy




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Re: [Digital BW] Ansel Adams Archival Replicas

2009-04-27 by Ernst Dinkla

john castronovo schreef:
> That could get 
> to be a problem. The reproductions could actually wind up being (excuse 
> me) equal to or better than the originals.

That were my thoughts all along. Praise your method in public but make
sure the digital print isn't better than the original. And so we will
get another round of discussions where this project is used as an
example that digital prints are worse than analogue prints.

It would have been much more interesting to see what was possible with
new negative scans, the best digital B&W printing possible and an eye
for what the original prints meant to express.


-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst


New: Dinkla Canvas Wrap Actions

|      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
|         www.pigment-print.com        |
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Re: [Digital BW] Ansel Adams Archival Replicas

2009-04-27 by Mark Savoia

Now that I would like to see too.

Mark
http://www.stillrivereditions.com
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Apr 27, 2009, at 9:51 AM, Ernst Dinkla wrote:

> It would have been much more interesting to see what was possible with
> new negative scans

Re: [Digital BW] Ansel Adams Archival Replicas

2009-04-27 by BKPhoto@aol.com

The irony, for me, is that Adams once told me how excited he was to place his archives at the University of Arizona's Center for Creative Photography because he wanted to see his work used by young photographers in new media (he would refer to what we call inkjet printing as "electronic photography").



I have yet to see anything like that come from CCP, although it may be happening.




He didn't see this as derivative but rather, like music, an opportunity for new interpretation. I don't think what his grandson is doing qualifies.




Bill Kennedy 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Savoia <mark@...>
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 8:58 am
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Ansel Adams Archival Replicas


























    

            
            


      
      
Now that I would like to see too.



Mark

http://www.stillrivereditions.com



On Apr 27, 2009, at 9:51 AM, Ernst Dinkla wrote:



> It would have been much more interesting to see what was possible with

> new negative scans





 

    
  

    
    


    
    
    
    


    


    
    
    
    
    


 






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] Ansel Adams Archival Replicas

2009-04-27 by Emerick, David N

Ansel spent a lot of time in the darkroom manipulating his prints and it would require a really good eye to achieve the same image from a scan of the negative, albeit in theory, a much better approach. 

david


Ernst Dinkla wrote:

It would have been much more interesting to see what was possible with
new negative scans, the best digital B&W printing possible and an eye
for what the original prints meant to express.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Ansel Adams Archival Replicas

2009-04-27 by Mark Savoia

Maybe a good scan and having controls of tonal range, contrast, etc in  
Photoshop would make the negs print even better then he could do in a  
darkroom. We may never know.

Mark
http://www.stillrivereditions.com
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Apr 27, 2009, at 10:29 AM, Emerick, David N wrote:

> Ansel spent a lot of time in the darkroom manipulating his prints  
> and it would require a really good eye to achieve the same image  
> from a scan of the negative, albeit in theory, a much better approach.
>
> david

Re: [Digital BW] Ansel Adams Archival Replicas

2009-04-27 by Gary Weaver

Of course contrast is controllable, but it begins with the lens. I just don't know enough about Hassie to think there are less "contrasty" alternatives to the standard fare.

gar

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On 4/27/2009 at 8:12 AM john castronovo wrote:

>Nonsense, contrast is controllable; just poor technique. The job went to 
>the lowest bidder or a friend and ultimately no one cared. Then again, 
>maybe they didn't really want replicas of the originals. That could get 
>to be a problem. The reproductions could actually wind up being (excuse 
>me) equal to or better than the originals.
>
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "Gary Weaver"
>It was my guess the lens was too contrasty for copying graphic work of 
>this sort.
>
>gar

Re: [Digital BW] Ansel Adams Archival Replicas

2009-04-27 by Tom Baker

I feel some sense of outrage at what they are doing.  I think it's because I believe that Ansel would not want to be associated with a copy of a print.  If he were still around I think he would embrace top notch neg scans and first rate digital prints.
 
But, what Mathew is doing is not progressing the art or science of photography.  He's just turning out expensive posters.
 
Also, who's going to buy them?  Not serious collectors/photographers.  And, they'll be a bit pricey for the average Joe/Josiphine.
 
Tom Baker

--- On Mon, 4/27/09, Ernst Dinkla <edinkla@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: Ernst Dinkla <edinkla@onsneteindhoven.nl>
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Ansel Adams Archival Replicas
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, April 27, 2009, 12:34 AM








Tom Baker schreef:
> How can they possibly make even an acceptable 30x40 print from a 4x6 print, let alone and exceptional print?
> 
> Tom Baker

Without sharpening it is possible ..... if the viewer is at a distance
that makes it a 4x6 again.
With sharpening the texture artefacts of the original print would be
visible but enlarged ......... if the reproduction step was good enough.

And it is correct what Tyler mentions on the use of the "quad" inks,
gloss uses only the PK, Gray and Light Gray on the Z3100.

There was a thread on this some time ago on the LL forum:

http://luminous- landscape. com/forum/ index.php? showtopic= 29848&st= 0

-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst

New: Dinkla Canvas Wrap Actions

| Dinkla Grafische Techniek |
| www.pigment- print.com |
| ( unvollendet ) |
















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] Ansel Adams Archival Replicas

2009-04-27 by Tom Baker

David -
 
Given first rate negative scans I believe there are several on this list that could pretty well duplicate any given print of Ansels if they had it in front of them.  However, it would obviously not be possible to create something new and say that's how Ansel would see it now.
 
Tom Baker
 
--- On Mon, 4/27/09, Emerick, David N <dnemerick@smcm.edu> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: Emerick, David N <dnemerick@...>
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Ansel Adams Archival Replicas
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, April 27, 2009, 7:29 AM








Ansel spent a lot of time in the darkroom manipulating his prints and it would require a really good eye to achieve the same image from a scan of the negative, albeit in theory, a much better approach. 

david

Ernst Dinkla wrote:

It would have been much more interesting to see what was possible with
new negative scans, the best digital B&W printing possible and an eye
for what the original prints meant to express.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Ansel Adams Archival Replicas

2009-04-27 by john dean

The negative being the score and the print the performance, Ansel  was definitely open to new performances of his score. However, it is obvious that this is not the way to do it. He told us students back in the late 70s that he really wanted his film to be scanned  and  "reinterpreted" and printed digitally when the technology developed beyond where it was then. He said that over and over over a period of years. The technology was no where at that time of course. This is probably the excuse they have for doing this. Using his own words.

A couple of years ago the Center in Tucson had a really great exhibition all about how various photographers, Sommer, Adams, Smith, Winnogrand, Avedon,  personalized the bw process in their own unique ways to suit their own vision. There were 4 versions of Moonrise shown that Ansel had personally made over a 40 or so year period of time. They were all different, but all excellent. They just had different qualities with new papers available later, etc. However, my favorite was the first. Other people felt the last one was the best. There was no correct interpretation.

One thing for sure, I couldn't duplicate any of them on my Z3100, even if I wanted to, unless I had a couple of more grays to work with.

By the way this whole "scan the print" to make collector prints thing was done about 7 years ago by Wynn Bullocks estate. You can expect to see a lot of it in the future. 

I think the guys at Bauhaus did an excellent job reinterpreting the qualities of the Herman Leondard jazz archive after the originals were destroyed in Hurricane Katrina. They were sensitively done 30x40s, with a specially designed hextone inkset on Silver Rag that did justice to the originals, possibly even improving them in some cases. The artist was still alive to supervise and the 4x5 negs were drum scanned .


john 





--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Tom Baker <tbaker1328@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> David -
> Â 
> Given first rate negative scans I believe there are several on this list that could pretty well duplicate any given print of Ansels if they had it in front of them.  However, it would obviously not be possible to create something new and say that's how Ansel would see it now.
> Â 
> Tom Baker
> Â 
> --- On Mon, 4/27/09, Emerick, David N <dnemerick@...> wrote:
> 
> From: Emerick, David N <dnemerick@...>
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Ansel Adams Archival Replicas
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Monday, April 27, 2009, 7:29 AM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ansel spent a lot of time in the darkroom manipulating his prints and it would require a really good eye to achieve the same image from a scan of the negative, albeit in theory, a much better approach. 
> 
> david
> 
> Ernst Dinkla wrote:
> 
> It would have been much more interesting to see what was possible with
> new negative scans, the best digital B&W printing possible and an eye
> for what the original prints meant to express.
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Re: [Digital BW] Ansel Adams Archival Replicas

2009-04-27 by MICHAEL KIRWAN

Tourists from what I saw this past weekend.
 
They see the real thing and the price, then see these and they are sold. Saw lots of tourists carrying many of these in their hands heading to the check out. So in this case, expensive memories of their trip to Yosemite and a cheaper copy of the masters work.
 
Mike

--- On Mon, 4/27/09, Tom Baker <tbaker1328@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: Tom Baker <tbaker1328@...>
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Ansel Adams Archival Replicas
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, April 27, 2009, 8:27 AM








I feel some sense of outrage at what they are doing.  I think it's because I believe that Ansel would not want to be associated with a copy of a print.  If he were still around I think he would embrace top notch neg scans and first rate digital prints.
 
But, what Mathew is doing is not progressing the art or science of photography.  He's just turning out expensive posters.
 
Also, who's going to buy them?  Not serious collectors/photogra phers.  And, they'll be a bit pricey for the average Joe/Josiphine.
 
Tom Baker

--- On Mon, 4/27/09, Ernst Dinkla <edinkla@onsneteindh oven.nl> wrote:

From: Ernst Dinkla <edinkla@onsneteindh oven.nl>
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Ansel Adams Archival Replicas
To: DigitalBlackandWhit eThePrint@ yahoogroups. com
Date: Monday, April 27, 2009, 12:34 AM

Tom Baker schreef:
> How can they possibly make even an acceptable 30x40 print from a 4x6 print, let alone and exceptional print?
> 
> Tom Baker

Without sharpening it is possible ..... if the viewer is at a distance
that makes it a 4x6 again.
With sharpening the texture artefacts of the original print would be
visible but enlarged ......... if the reproduction step was good enough.

And it is correct what Tyler mentions on the use of the "quad" inks,
gloss uses only the PK, Gray and Light Gray on the Z3100.

There was a thread on this some time ago on the LL forum:

http://luminous- landscape. com/forum/ index.php? showtopic= 29848&st= 0

-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst

New: Dinkla Canvas Wrap Actions

| Dinkla Grafische Techniek |
| www.pigment- print.com |
| ( unvollendet ) |

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Ansel Adams Archival Replicas

2009-04-27 by pr_roark

MICHAEL KIRWAN <mkirwan@...> wrote:
>
> Tourists from what I saw this past weekend.
> They see the real thing and the price, then see these and 
> they are sold. Saw lots of tourists carrying many of these 
> in their hands heading to the check out. ...

I agree.  I think they are nice looking copies, definitely better than a cheap poster, maybe intentionally less sharp than the originals, and a way for the Adams family/trust to make some money without selling off the family copies (probably the best) of the originals.

I would like to see a high res. scan of a small midtone segment of one of these copies if someone on the list has actually purchased one. I'm curious how much separate color is being added to the grey inks.

(Back to working up some 5d2 shots of Yosemite.)

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] Ansel Adams Archival Replicas

2009-04-27 by MICHAEL KIRWAN

I will be heading up there again the weekend of May 16th and can purchase one and make a high res scan - will have to be off my Epson V700 - just let me know the resolution.
 
Printed some color & B&W images when I got home last night - very please. Shot both film (4x5) and digital Nikon D3 - hope you are just as pleased
 
Mike

--- On Mon, 4/27/09, pr_roark <pr_roark@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: pr_roark <pr_roark@...>
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Ansel Adams Archival Replicas
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, April 27, 2009, 10:38 AM








MICHAEL KIRWAN <mkirwan@... > wrote:
>
> Tourists from what I saw this past weekend.
> They see the real thing and the price, then see these and 
> they are sold. Saw lots of tourists carrying many of these 
> in their hands heading to the check out. ...

I agree. I think they are nice looking copies, definitely better than a cheap poster, maybe intentionally less sharp than the originals, and a way for the Adams family/trust to make some money without selling off the family copies (probably the best) of the originals.

I would like to see a high res. scan of a small midtone segment of one of these copies if someone on the list has actually purchased one. I'm curious how much separate color is being added to the grey inks.

(Back to working up some 5d2 shots of Yosemite.)

Paul
www.PaulRoark. com 
















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yosemite (was Ansel Adams Archival Replicas)

2009-04-27 by pr_roark

MICHAEL KIRWAN <mkirwan@...> wrote:
>
> ... hope you are just as pleased ...

Yep.  Just posted my first work-up of a Canon 5d2 shot that utilized the 90mm Tilt-Shift capabilities.  So far, it appears to be a very worthy replacement for my Rollei SL66 (which allows tilts) with its 150mm Sonnar.

The 5d2 image is on my main front page here: http://paulroark.com/

A Rollei SL66 image with the 150mm Sonnar tilted similarly is here:  
http://paulroark.com/Cambria-Surf.jpg

I think the 90 TS with 5d2 may be a better technology and photographic tool in most respects.  (But the Rollei is more collectible.)

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] Yosemite (was Ansel Adams Archival Replicas)

2009-04-27 by MICHAEL KIRWAN

That is one truly amazing camera. Did not know that Canon had introduced a time machine that allowed you to photograph the future....wonders of technology :)
 
This photo of the Merced River roaring through Happy Isles was taken on "June 22, 2009".
 
Now if you would be so kind a photograph the results of tomorrow's mega lottery maybe we both could retire :)
 
By the way - really nice image
 
Mike
 

--- On Mon, 4/27/09, pr_roark <pr_roark@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: pr_roark <pr_roark@...>
Subject: [Digital BW] Yosemite (was Ansel Adams Archival Replicas)
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, April 27, 2009, 12:30 PM








MICHAEL KIRWAN <mkirwan@... > wrote:
>
> ... hope you are just as pleased ...

Yep. Just posted my first work-up of a Canon 5d2 shot that utilized the 90mm Tilt-Shift capabilities. So far, it appears to be a very worthy replacement for my Rollei SL66 (which allows tilts) with its 150mm Sonnar.

The 5d2 image is on my main front page here: http://paulroark. com/

A Rollei SL66 image with the 150mm Sonnar tilted similarly is here: 
http://paulroark. com/Cambria- Surf.jpg

I think the 90 TS with 5d2 may be a better technology and photographic tool in most respects. (But the Rollei is more collectible. )

Paul
www.PaulRoark. com 
















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Yosemite (was Ansel Adams Archival Replicas)

2009-04-27 by Paul Grant

Paul
Great image with the 5d2.  I am very excited to get out and about with mine
as well.  I have been using it mainly in the studio.


The combo of the 90 TSE has some great advantages.    I have played with
using the shift capability to create panos.

Actully it makes a great 5x7 format image at 35 megapixels.   The quality is
stunning.

Paul
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: pr_roark <pr_roark@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 19:30:59 -0000
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [Digital BW] Yosemite (was Ansel Adams Archival Replicas)

 
  

  

MICHAEL KIRWAN <mkirwan@...> wrote:
>
> ... hope you are just as pleased ...

Yep.  Just posted my first work-up of a Canon 5d2 shot that utilized the
90mm Tilt-Shift capabilities.  So far, it appears to be a very worthy
replacement for my Rollei SL66 (which allows tilts) with its 150mm Sonnar.

The 5d2 image is on my main front page here: http://paulroark.com/

A Rollei SL66 image with the 150mm Sonnar tilted similarly is here:
http://paulroark.com/Cambria-Surf.jpg

I think the 90 TS with 5d2 may be a better technology and photographic tool
in most respects.  (But the Rollei is more collectible.)

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

  
    

        


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Ansel Adams Archival Replicas

2009-04-27 by Tyler Boley

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john castronovo" <jc@...> wrote:
...
> maybe they didn't really want replicas of the originals. That could get 
> to be a problem. The reproductions could actually wind up being (excuse 
> me) equal to or better than the originals.

yes of course, I don't know why this went right over my head, a common practice...
Tyler

Re: [Digital BW] Ansel Adams Archival Replicas

2009-04-28 by Tom Baker

I guess there's more money available for these things than I thought.  
 
I did see an original in Santa Fe recently that was a mere $25000, or so.  Had to pass it up, but I overheard a guy on a cell phone trying to convince his wife ( I think) that he need it at such a bargin price.  The Adams family is certainly not getting any part of that $25,000.
 
I guess I agree with Paul that it is an opportunity for the Adams family to make some income from the images.  They certainly are entitled to benefit from Ansels work.  Looks like Ansel did not think about that aspect of it when he put the restrictions on his negatives.  
 
It's be nice if the University of Arizona could figure out a way to make digital prints from the original negatives and put the prints on tour.  Maybe they could do this and still remain within the spirit and intent of Ansel's donations.
 
Tom Baker


--- On Mon, 4/27/09, MICHAEL KIRWAN <mkirwan@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: MICHAEL KIRWAN <mkirwan@...>
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Ansel Adams Archival Replicas
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, April 27, 2009, 9:31 AM








Tourists from what I saw this past weekend.
 
They see the real thing and the price, then see these and they are sold. Saw lots of tourists carrying many of these in their hands heading to the check out. So in this case, expensive memories of their trip to Yosemite and a cheaper copy of the masters work.
 
Mike

--- On Mon, 4/27/09, Tom Baker <tbaker1328@sbcgloba l.net> wrote:

From: Tom Baker <tbaker1328@sbcgloba l.net>
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Ansel Adams Archival Replicas
To: DigitalBlackandWhit eThePrint@ yahoogroups. com
Date: Monday, April 27, 2009, 8:27 AM

I feel some sense of outrage at what they are doing.  I think it's because I believe that Ansel would not want to be associated with a copy of a print.  If he were still around I think he would embrace top notch neg scans and first rate digital prints.
 
But, what Mathew is doing is not progressing the art or science of photography.  He's just turning out expensive posters.
 
Also, who's going to buy them?  Not serious collectors/photogra phers.  And, they'll be a bit pricey for the average Joe/Josiphine.
 
Tom Baker

--- On Mon, 4/27/09, Ernst Dinkla <edinkla@onsneteind h oven.nl> wrote:

From: Ernst Dinkla <edinkla@onsneteind h oven.nl>
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Ansel Adams Archival Replicas
To: DigitalBlackandWhit eThePrint@ yahoogroups. com
Date: Monday, April 27, 2009, 12:34 AM

Tom Baker schreef:
> How can they possibly make even an acceptable 30x40 print from a 4x6 print, let alone and exceptional print?
> 
> Tom Baker

Without sharpening it is possible ..... if the viewer is at a distance
that makes it a 4x6 again.
With sharpening the texture artefacts of the original print would be
visible but enlarged ......... if the reproduction step was good enough.

And it is correct what Tyler mentions on the use of the "quad" inks,
gloss uses only the PK, Gray and Light Gray on the Z3100.

There was a thread on this some time ago on the LL forum:

http://luminous- landscape. com/forum/ index.php? showtopic= 29848&st= 0

-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst

New: Dinkla Canvas Wrap Actions

| Dinkla Grafische Techniek |
| www.pigment- print.com |
| ( unvollendet ) |

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

tilt/shift

2009-04-28 by Debbi

Is it hard to learn to use the tilt/shift lens if you have never used 
anything similar in the past? That new Canon 24mm t/s looks 
interesting
Thanks
Debbi

Re: [Digital BW] tilt/shift

2009-04-28 by Debbi

Thank you very much! I'm saving that!
Debbi
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>  >
>>  Is it hard to learn to use the tilt/shift lens if you have never used
>>  anything similar in the past? That new Canon 24mm t/s looks
>>  interesting
>>  Thanks
>>  Debbi
>It's not hard. You only have a couple of possible adjustments, and it's
>pretty easy to figure it out looking through the finder and playing with
>them. Rise and shift are really easy.  Keep the camera back plumb. 
>Point the camera left or right until you have the left/right framing
>that you want.  Now use rise until you have the vertical framing that
>you want. This way plumb lines in the photo will stay plumb.
>
>Now for tilt.  When the sensor plane and the plane through the optical
>center of the lens are parallel, then the plane of sharp focus will also
>be parallel to them.  This is the case for regular lenses.  Now when you
>tilt the plane through the optical center of the lens forward, i.e. you
>tilt the lens down, the plane of sharp will pivot in the same way as the
>lens. In other words the top of the plane of sharp focus will move away
>from the camera when the lens is  tilted forwards, and the bottom of the
>plane will move toward the camera.  Actually, when there's  tilt, the
>planes through the sensor and the lens will intersect at some point
>below the camera.  The plane of sharp focus will also intersect these
>planes at the same point.  So lets say you want the ground to be in
>focus from near to far.  You tilt the lens forward, and adjust focus a
>bit, until the ground is sharp both near and far.
>
>With the 24mm lens, the most important thing will be front rise,
>especially as a way to keep plumb lines plumb with architecture.  Tilt
>won't be as important since so much is in focus with a 24mm lens at
>working apertures anyway.  If you want shallow depth of field with a non
>standard plane of sharp focus, such as is popular in commercial
>photography, you'd probably want a longer lens.  The old Canon 24mm T/S
>lens was a real dog. I hope the new one is better.

Re: [Digital BW] tilt/shift

2009-04-28 by Paul Grant

Yes it does take some time to get used to the TS lens.  I would imagine the
24 mm to be more forgiving that the 90mm.   I used the 90 in the studio to
play with selective focus for portraits with my 5d2 and I really like the
look.  Being able to thow one eye out of focus or the bottom portion of the
image.     As noted in a previous post I did experiement with it a bit for
landscape work and again found a unique capability.   I was able to use the
“Shift” capability and shoot 3 images.   Shifted once to the left 100% then
Center then Shift right 100%.    I then combined these 3 images in Photoshop
CS4 as a Panorama.   The slight addition to the top and bottom of the 35mm
frame in Landscape mode created a nice 5000 x 7000 image size.   35mp from
the 21mp 5d2.  I did not do the same in landscape mode which would make it a
wider pano.   I had borrowed this lens from my nephew and did not get the
time to do all I wanted with it.     I do plan to purchase this lens in the
near future.

Paul
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: Debbi <corkie@sunset.net>
Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 17:26:02 -0700
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [Digital BW] tilt/shift

 
  

  

Is it hard to learn to use the tilt/shift lens if you have never used
anything similar in the past? That new Canon 24mm t/s looks
interesting
Thanks
Debbi
  
    

      


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] tilt/shift

2009-04-28 by Debbi

Thanks Paul, the 90 would sure be a lot cheaper than the new 24

Debbi
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>Yes it does take some time to get used to the TS lens.  I would imagine the
>24 mm to be more forgiving that the 90mm.   I used the 90 in the studio to
>play with selective focus for portraits with my 5d2 and I really like the
>look.  Being able to thow one eye out of focus or the bottom portion of the
>image.     As noted in a previous post I did experiement with it a bit for
>landscape work and again found a unique capability.   I was able to use the
>"Shift" capability and shoot 3 images.   Shifted once to the left 100% then
>Center then Shift right 100%.    I then combined these 3 images in Photoshop
>CS4 as a Panorama.   The slight addition to the top and bottom of the 35mm
>frame in Landscape mode created a nice 5000 x 7000 image size.   35mp from
>the 21mp 5d2.  I did not do the same in landscape mode which would make it a
>wider pano.   I had borrowed this lens from my nephew and did not get the
>time to do all I wanted with it.     I do plan to purchase this lens in the
>near future.
>
>Paul
>
>
>
>
>From: Debbi <corkie@...>
>Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
>Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 17:26:02 -0700
>To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: [Digital BW] tilt/shift
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Is it hard to learn to use the tilt/shift lens if you have never used
>anything similar in the past? That new Canon 24mm t/s looks
>interesting
>Thanks
>Debbi
>
>

Re: [Digital BW] tilt/shift

2009-04-28 by Peter De Smidt

>
> Is it hard to learn to use the tilt/shift lens if you have never used
> anything similar in the past? That new Canon 24mm t/s looks
> interesting
> Thanks
> Debbi
It's not hard. You only have a couple of possible adjustments, and it's 
pretty easy to figure it out looking through the finder and playing with 
them. Rise and shift are really easy.  Keep the camera back plumb.  
Point the camera left or right until you have the left/right framing 
that you want.  Now use rise until you have the vertical framing that 
you want. This way plumb lines in the photo will stay plumb.

Now for tilt.  When the sensor plane and the plane through the optical 
center of the lens are parallel, then the plane of sharp focus will also 
be parallel to them.  This is the case for regular lenses.  Now when you 
tilt the plane through the optical center of the lens forward, i.e. you 
tilt the lens down, the plane of sharp will pivot in the same way as the 
lens. In other words the top of the plane of sharp focus will move away 
from the camera when the lens is  tilted forwards, and the bottom of the 
plane will move toward the camera.  Actually, when there's  tilt, the 
planes through the sensor and the lens will intersect at some point 
below the camera.  The plane of sharp focus will also intersect these 
planes at the same point.  So lets say you want the ground to be in 
focus from near to far.  You tilt the lens forward, and adjust focus a 
bit, until the ground is sharp both near and far.

With the 24mm lens, the most important thing will be front rise, 
especially as a way to keep plumb lines plumb with architecture.  Tilt 
won't be as important since so much is in focus with a 24mm lens at 
working apertures anyway.  If you want shallow depth of field with a non 
standard plane of sharp focus, such as is popular in commercial 
photography, you'd probably want a longer lens.  The old Canon 24mm T/S 
lens was a real dog. I hope the new one is better.

Re: tilt/shift

2009-04-28 by pr_roark

> Is it hard to learn to use the tilt/shift lens ...

I think most would feel comfortable with these fairly quickly.  Once you have the movements, you will not want to give them up.  I have the 90 and 45, and would love to have a *good* 24mm tilt-shift. 

The tilt shift mount forces the rear element to be even further away from the film/sensor than the does the usual SLR mirror.  So, even the 45mm TS-E is a retrofocus design, and the optical performance shows it.  

Additionally, a large image circle (58mm, I believe) is needed to cover the frame when the image is shifted off axis.  

The bottom line is that designing wide angle tilt-shift lenses is tough -- much more of a challenge than even the normal SLR wide angles.  

On the other hand, the 90 is about like a medium format "normal" lens, which have been very good for years (as any Rollei twin lens owner will attest).  The 90m TS is the best optically because it's not a retrofocus design.  

I've found the 45mm TS to be quite useful in the past -- usually using it at f/11 to minimize its performance problems.  However, whether it'll be able to make 16x20 prints with the 5d2 that have the fine details I like remains an open question. 

The old 24 TS was, as noted previously, a dog if display size prints were the target.  Whether the new one will be able to overcome the optical challenges is an open question.  The design looks more like the famous Zeiss 21mm Distagon than any wide angle I've seen from Canon.  If the results are as good at f/8, it'll be tempting.  But, as also mentioned previously, tilt is much less needed at 24mm due to the depth of field.  I used a 45mm with my medium format Bronica rangefinder and found 2 focus zones could capture most of what a tilted lens would capture.  

Note also that retrofocus lenses tend to be sensitive to focus distance.  That is, their performance falls off significantly when they are used at other than their design distance.  To offset this problem, many wide angle lenses use floating elements.  But, with a tilt, even floating elements can't make the lens optimized for all the different distances.  So, I'm skeptical even of the new $2.5K Canon 24 and 17mm TS lenses will be able to make top notch display size prints.

Additionally, with Photoshop we have tools to deal with perspective.  So, the need for a shift is less, in my view.  

Still, wide angle tilt-shift lenses are a ball to use.  The old 35 TS for the Canon FD was one of my favorite lenses prior to my decision to focus on B&W display.  So, if Canon can pull it off, I might well be a customer.  

Note that the MTF curves Canon has provided at http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelInfoAct&fcategoryid=156&modelid=18175 presumably show f/8 performance at 10 and 30 lp/mm.  The performance dips at about 10 mm out to a rather low level -- about like the Canon 24mm f/2.8 at the edge of the frame.  On the other hand, the lens improves past this point (weird curve, probably due to the aspheric front element).  The average might be good enough for serious work.  It's close.  It'll take more than this chart to convince me.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 



Frankly, I expect to see dedicated wide angle digital rangefinders.

RE: [Digital BW] tilt/shift

2009-04-28 by George Pappas

These lenses are very easy to use if you are familiar with using a view
camera and they are very convenient.  I use all three but find the 45mm to
the most used one in my bag; the 90mm is second.  You can see the results in
the viewfinder - I have the enhanced focusing screen to better determine
focus.  With lenses of this focal length, you only need a very small amount
of tilt or shift to have a significant effect on the image.

 

I had the Canon service department rotate the tilt/shift controls so that
the tilt and shift are on the same axis.  This is very helpful for landscape
work.  I love the flexibility of image control with a view camera and find
that these lenses give you the next best thing with a small format film or
digital SLR.

 

The newer Canon 24mm design allows the rotation of the tilt/shift axis so
modification by Canon's service department is no longer needed.

 

They are great lenses for landscape photographers - it is good to see Nikon
finally getting the game and challenging them with its new tilt/shift
offerings.  We will all benefit from the competition.

 

George
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Debbi
Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 8:26 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] tilt/shift

 






Is it hard to learn to use the tilt/shift lens if you have never used 
anything similar in the past? That new Canon 24mm t/s looks 
interesting
Thanks
Debbi





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] tilt/shift

2009-04-28 by pr_roark

"George Pappas" <george@...> wrote:

> ...
> I have the enhanced focusing screen ...

I'm about to look into that for the 5d2.  Which screen or style do you use?  My favorite screens over the years for both the old F1 and Rolleis have included grid lines to help with horizons and vertical lines.

I've also found a right angle finder with a 2x built in magnifier useful.  The live view looks like the ultimate focusing aid, but in the field I found myself not using it, in part because I wanted to hold down the number of new features I'd have to deal with and also because I'm concerned with noise increases with live view -- not sure if those are serious, however.

By the way, I took some photos in the mist of waterfalls with the 5d2, and the camera seemed to handle the dampness just fine.  The only problems I had were operator error -- forgetting which custom functions were on or off.  I sure wish Canon would allow us to modify their software and program some buttons on the camera to turn on and off the few of these functions we actually use.

> With lenses of this focal length, you only need a very small 
> amount of tilt or shift to have a significant effect on the image.

The tilt example on my main web page now used the 90mm with about a 4 degree tilt.

> The newer Canon 24mm design allows the rotation of the 
> tilt/shift axis ...

With the old 35 TS for the FD I could do the rotation myself -- and would switch back and forth as needed.  This new mount looks like a significant upgrade for the TS-E series.  I also wonder if they managed to reduce the rear element to film/sensor distance.  (I assume Canon still makes a few film cameras.)


Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] tilt/shift

2009-04-28 by Mark Savoia

Forgive me for p**ing on the discussion, but can't tilts and shifts be  
done in Photoshop post production?

Mark
http://www.stillrivereditions.com
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Apr 28, 2009, at 11:33 AM, pr_roark wrote:

> "George Pappas" <george@...> wrote:
>
>> ...
>> I have the enhanced focusing screen ...
>
> I'm about to look into that for the 5d2.  Which screen or style do  
> you use?  My favorite screens over the years for both the old F1 and  
> Rolleis have included grid lines to help with horizons and vertical  
> lines.
>
> I've also found a right angle finder with a 2x built in magnifier  
> useful.  The live view looks like the ultimate focusing aid, but in  
> the field I found myself not using it, in part because I wanted to  
> hold down the number of new features I'd have to deal with and also  
> because I'm concerned with noise increases with live view -- not  
> sure if those are serious, however.
>
> By the way, I took some photos in the mist of waterfalls with the  
> 5d2, and the camera seemed to handle the dampness just fine.  The  
> only problems I had were operator error -- forgetting which custom  
> functions were on or off.  I sure wish Canon would allow us to  
> modify their software and program some buttons on the camera to turn  
> on and off the few of these functions we actually use.
>
>> With lenses of this focal length, you only need a very small
>> amount of tilt or shift to have a significant effect on the image.
>
> The tilt example on my main web page now used the 90mm with about a  
> 4 degree tilt.
>
>> The newer Canon 24mm design allows the rotation of the
>> tilt/shift axis ...
>
> With the old 35 TS for the FD I could do the rotation myself -- and  
> would switch back and forth as needed.  This new mount looks like a  
> significant upgrade for the TS-E series.  I also wonder if they  
> managed to reduce the rear element to film/sensor distance.  (I  
> assume Canon still makes a few film cameras.)
>
>
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com

RE: [Digital BW] tilt/shift

2009-04-28 by George Pappas

Mark,

 

In my experience it is not the same.  You can't add focus where it isn't
(sharpening has its limits and affects tonality) and there is more to
perspective control than stretching the image.  With shift, you are actually
taking a slightly different image.

 

George
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark
Savoia
Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 11:38 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] tilt/shift

 






Forgive me for p**ing on the discussion, but can't tilts and shifts be 
done in Photoshop post production?

Mark
http://www.stillrivereditions.com

On Apr 28, 2009, at 11:33 AM, pr_roark wrote:

> "George Pappas" <george@...> wrote:
>
>> ...
>> I have the enhanced focusing screen ...
>
> I'm about to look into that for the 5d2. Which screen or style do 
> you use? My favorite screens over the years for both the old F1 and 
> Rolleis have included grid lines to help with horizons and vertical 
> lines.
>
> I've also found a right angle finder with a 2x built in magnifier 
> useful. The live view looks like the ultimate focusing aid, but in 
> the field I found myself not using it, in part because I wanted to 
> hold down the number of new features I'd have to deal with and also 
> because I'm concerned with noise increases with live view -- not 
> sure if those are serious, however.
>
> By the way, I took some photos in the mist of waterfalls with the 
> 5d2, and the camera seemed to handle the dampness just fine. The 
> only problems I had were operator error -- forgetting which custom 
> functions were on or off. I sure wish Canon would allow us to 
> modify their software and program some buttons on the camera to turn 
> on and off the few of these functions we actually use.
>
>> With lenses of this focal length, you only need a very small
>> amount of tilt or shift to have a significant effect on the image.
>
> The tilt example on my main web page now used the 90mm with about a 
> 4 degree tilt.
>
>> The newer Canon 24mm design allows the rotation of the
>> tilt/shift axis ...
>
> With the old 35 TS for the FD I could do the rotation myself -- and 
> would switch back and forth as needed. This new mount looks like a 
> significant upgrade for the TS-E series. I also wonder if they 
> managed to reduce the rear element to film/sensor distance. (I 
> assume Canon still makes a few film cameras.)
>
>
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] tilt/shift

2009-04-28 by pr_roark

>... can't tilts and shifts be done in Photoshop post production?

I agree, in general, with George.  

More specifically, I think mild perspective controls work well in PS, but I suspect a perfectionist would see and could measure some distortion.  Also, the sharpness -- effective mp count -- goes down when you use the PS perspective controls.  The information is stretched, squashed, and interpolated. 

With respect to tilt and focus plane control, at 24mm the depth of field allows reasonable zone focusing, but with longer focal length lenses the number of zones and amount of work that is needed becomes a real hassle.  At 90mm, it's nearly impossible to match what a tilt can do.  (I've never had very good luck with the automated frame-combining routines.)

Note also the problems with movement in the image if you make multiple, zone-focused exposures.

Tilt is a really nice tool to have for landscapes.  The advantages, of course, need to be weighed against the costs and disadvantages of the tilt-shift lenses.  The only TS lens I've used that did not have a significant sharpness reduction over a non-TS lens of about the same focal length is the 90mm. 


Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

RE: [Digital BW] tilt/shift

2009-04-29 by George Pappas

Hi Paul,

 

I use the Ee-S "Super Precision Screen" with my 5D for all of my lenses.  It
does not have gridlines (which does not bother me).  It is designed for
better manual focusing - it has different microlenses on the screen that
help the image "pop" in and out of focus more clearly.  It is not as bright
as the standard screen, but I have not had a problem using it with the T/S
lenses and find it to be a worthwhile tradeoff.

 

I tried the right-angle magnifier but discarded it because it does not cover
the edges of the frame very well.  The Ee-s screen makes it easier for me to
judge focus over the entire frame.

 

Regards,

George
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of pr_roark
Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 11:34 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] tilt/shift

 






"George Pappas" <george@...> wrote:

> ...
> I have the enhanced focusing screen ...

I'm about to look into that for the 5d2. Which screen or style do you use?
My favorite screens over the years for both the old F1 and Rolleis have
included grid lines to help with horizons and vertical lines.

I've also found a right angle finder with a 2x built in magnifier useful.
The live view looks like the ultimate focusing aid, but in the field I found
myself not using it, in part because I wanted to hold down the number of new
features I'd have to deal with and also because I'm concerned with noise
increases with live view -- not sure if those are serious, however.

By the way, I took some photos in the mist of waterfalls with the 5d2, and
the camera seemed to handle the dampness just fine. The only problems I had
were operator error -- forgetting which custom functions were on or off. I
sure wish Canon would allow us to modify their software and program some
buttons on the camera to turn on and off the few of these functions we
actually use.

> With lenses of this focal length, you only need a very small 
> amount of tilt or shift to have a significant effect on the image.

The tilt example on my main web page now used the 90mm with about a 4 degree
tilt.

> The newer Canon 24mm design allows the rotation of the 
> tilt/shift axis ...

With the old 35 TS for the FD I could do the rotation myself -- and would
switch back and forth as needed. This new mount looks like a significant
upgrade for the TS-E series. I also wonder if they managed to reduce the
rear element to film/sensor distance. (I assume Canon still makes a few film
cameras.)

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] tilt/shift

2009-04-29 by Debbi

Excellent discussion
Thanks so much
Debbi
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>  >... can't tilts and shifts be done in Photoshop post production?
>
>I agree, in general, with George. 
>
>More specifically, I think mild perspective controls work well in 
>PS, but I suspect a perfectionist would see and could measure some 
>distortion.  Also, the sharpness -- effective mp count -- goes down 
>when you use the PS perspective controls.  The information is 
>stretched, squashed, and interpolated.
>
>With respect to tilt and focus plane control, at 24mm the depth of 
>field allows reasonable zone focusing, but with longer focal length 
>lenses the number of zones and amount of work that is needed becomes 
>a real hassle.  At 90mm, it's nearly impossible to match what a tilt 
>can do.  (I've never had very good luck with the automated 
>frame-combining routines.)
>
>Note also the problems with movement in the image if you make 
>multiple, zone-focused exposures.
>
>Tilt is a really nice tool to have for landscapes.  The advantages, 
>of course, need to be weighed against the costs and disadvantages of 
>the tilt-shift lenses.  The only TS lens I've used that did not have 
>a significant sharpness reduction over a non-TS lens of about the 
>same focal length is the 90mm.
>
>
>Paul
>www.PaulRoark.com
>

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