Digital BW, The Print

Hi,

I posted this in the Epson 4000 group but didn't get many responses so I thought I'd try here.

I apologize if this has been addressed previously, I searched and nothing came
up!

I inherited a 4000 that I'd like to convert to B&W printing. What is the current
"best" solution? MIS? Piezography? Or is there a replacement color ink solution
that can be RIP controlled to produce both b&w/color prints?

I realize that this can be a can of worms topic, but I was hoping that there would be an obvious "just get this" solution at this point for such an old printer.

Thanks,

Nick

look into qtr which is software only rip for bw first,if it does not meet
you then try some hard solutions like inks...

On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 5:00 PM, lambonick <BMWNick@...> wrote:

>
>
> Hi,
>
> I posted this in the Epson 4000 group but didn't get many responses so I
> thought I'd try here.
>
> I apologize if this has been addressed previously, I searched and nothing
> came
> up!
>
> I inherited a 4000 that I'd like to convert to B&W printing. What is the
> current
> "best" solution? MIS? Piezography? Or is there a replacement color ink
> solution
> that can be RIP controlled to produce both b&w/color prints?
>
> I realize that this can be a can of worms topic, but I was hoping that
> there would be an obvious "just get this" solution at this point for such an
> old printer.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Nick
>
>  
>



-- 
 -------------------------------------
 regards, mehrdad


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "lambonick" <BMWNick@...> wrote:
>
> Hi,
> 
> I posted this in the Epson 4000 group but didn't get many responses so I thought I'd try here.
> 
> I apologize if this has been addressed previously, I searched and nothing came
> up!
> 
> I inherited a 4000 that I'd like to convert to B&W printing. What is the current
> "best" solution? MIS? Piezography? Or is there a replacement color ink solution
> that can be RIP controlled to produce both b&w/color prints?
> 
> I realize that this can be a can of worms topic, but I was hoping that there would be an obvious "just get this" solution at this point for such an old printer.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Nick
>
Nick,

The 4000 has a reputation for clogged nozzles, so whatever ink you choose, try to find an ink that has a reputation for not clogging.  Some 4000's seemed to work fine, but others clogged like crazy.  Epson sent me three 4000's, and every one of them was a clogmeister.  I got so fed up with my 4000 (even using only Epson OEM inks) that I finally gave it to the Salvation Army.  I couldn't find anyone who wanted it for free, let along for a price.  

If you have a good one, it makes fine prints.  But stack the deck in your favor by feeding it whatever inks tend to not clog.  

Lou

I have a slightly different experience, although that may be because it is
more humid here in the UK.  I run two 4000's with Piezography K7 inks in
(Neutral and a Selenium/Sepia split) I rarely suffer from clogs in either,
even when they have been idle for a few weeks.  If you like printing on
matte papers I think it is hard to rival this inkset.

David Whistance

  -----Original Message-----
  From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Louis Dina
  Sent: 14 May 2009 17:40
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: [Digital BW] Re: I inherited an Epson 4000 that I'd like to
convert to B&W printing.





  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "lambonick"
<BMWNick@...> wrote:
  >
  > Hi,
  >
  > I posted this in the Epson 4000 group but didn't get many responses so I
thought I'd try here.
  >
  > I apologize if this has been addressed previously, I searched and
nothing came
  > up!
  >
  > I inherited a 4000 that I'd like to convert to B&W printing. What is the
current
  > "best" solution? MIS? Piezography? Or is there a replacement color ink
solution
  > that can be RIP controlled to produce both b&w/color prints?
  >
  > I realize that this can be a can of worms topic, but I was hoping that
there would be an obvious "just get this" solution at this point for such an
old printer.
  >
  > Thanks,
  >
  > Nick
  >
  Nick,

  The 4000 has a reputation for clogged nozzles, so whatever ink you choose,
try to find an ink that has a reputation for not clogging. Some 4000's
seemed to work fine, but others clogged like crazy. Epson sent me three
4000's, and every one of them was a clogmeister. I got so fed up with my
4000 (even using only Epson OEM inks) that I finally gave it to the
Salvation Army. I couldn't find anyone who wanted it for free, let along for
a price.

  If you have a good one, it makes fine prints. But stack the deck in your
favor by feeding it whatever inks tend to not clog.

  Lou



  


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I have a 4000 and the clogging can be intensely irritating. What I found helped was the run a humidifier so that I have about 20-30%. I live in Denver so it's pretty dry here. Still not perfect but will reduce the level of annoyance!

Rob

--- On Thu, 5/14/09, Louis Dina <lou@...> wrote:

From: Louis Dina <lou@...>
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: I inherited an Epson 4000 that I'd like to convert to B&W printing.
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, May 14, 2009, 11:40 AM











    
            
            


      
      --- In DigitalBlackandWhit eThePrint@ yahoogroups. com, "lambonick" <BMWNick@... > wrote:

>

> Hi,

> 

> I posted this in the Epson 4000 group but didn't get many responses so I thought I'd try here.

> 

> I apologize if this has been addressed previously, I searched and nothing came

> up!

> 

> I inherited a 4000 that I'd like to convert to B&W printing. What is the current

> "best" solution? MIS? Piezography? Or is there a replacement color ink solution

> that can be RIP controlled to produce both b&w/color prints?

> 

> I realize that this can be a can of worms topic, but I was hoping that there would be an obvious "just get this" solution at this point for such an old printer.

> 

> Thanks,

> 

> Nick

>

Nick,



The 4000 has a reputation for clogged nozzles, so whatever ink you choose, try to find an ink that has a reputation for not clogging.  Some 4000's seemed to work fine, but others clogged like crazy.  Epson sent me three 4000's, and every one of them was a clogmeister.  I got so fed up with my 4000 (even using only Epson OEM inks) that I finally gave it to the Salvation Army.  I couldn't find anyone who wanted it for free, let along for a price.  



If you have a good one, it makes fine prints.  But stack the deck in your favor by feeding it whatever inks tend to not clog.  



Lou




 

      

    
    
	
	 
	
	








	


	
	


      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I have great success with Epson 4000 and Cone's Piezography K7 inks - currently the Special Edition for matte papers. Nice prints! There is a MPS Selenium inkset and Gloss Optimizer solution for printing on glossy/silk/pearl papers.  Cone make a color inkset too, but I don't know if the color pigments are as fadeproof as the pigments in the K7 inksets. 

Finn

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "David Whistance" <david.whistance@...> wrote:

>
> I have a slightly different experience, although that may be because it is
> more humid here in the UK.  I run two 4000's with Piezography K7 inks in
> (Neutral and a Selenium/Sepia split) I rarely suffer from clogs in either,
> even when they have been idle for a few weeks.  If you like printing on
> matte papers I think it is hard to rival this inkset.
> 
> David Whistance
> 
>   -----Original Message-----
>   From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Louis Dina
>   Sent: 14 May 2009 17:40
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>   Subject: [Digital BW] Re: I inherited an Epson 4000 that I'd like to
> convert to B&W printing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "lambonick"
> <BMWNick@> wrote:
>   >
>   > Hi,
>   >
>   > I posted this in the Epson 4000 group but didn't get many responses so I
> thought I'd try here.
>   >
>   > I apologize if this has been addressed previously, I searched and
> nothing came
>   > up!
>   >
>   > I inherited a 4000 that I'd like to convert to B&W printing. What is the
> current
>   > "best" solution? MIS? Piezography? Or is there a replacement color ink
> solution
>   > that can be RIP controlled to produce both b&w/color prints?
>   >
>   > I realize that this can be a can of worms topic, but I was hoping that
> there would be an obvious "just get this" solution at this point for such an
> old printer.
>   >
>   > Thanks,
>   >
>   > Nick
>   >
>   Nick,
> 
>   The 4000 has a reputation for clogged nozzles, so whatever ink you choose,
> try to find an ink that has a reputation for not clogging. Some 4000's
> seemed to work fine, but others clogged like crazy. Epson sent me three
> 4000's, and every one of them was a clogmeister. I got so fed up with my
> 4000 (even using only Epson OEM inks) that I finally gave it to the
> Salvation Army. I couldn't find anyone who wanted it for free, let along for
> a price.
> 
>   If you have a good one, it makes fine prints. But stack the deck in your
> favor by feeding it whatever inks tend to not clog.
> 
>   Lou
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

> I have a 4000 and the clogging can be intensely irritating. ...

That machine does have a reputation for clogging.  I wonder what Epson did differently on it that caused that problem.  The frequency of complaints is like a throw-back to the 1280 days.

I have not used a K7 inkset, but with respect to the MIS offerings and the inks I've used, the matte-only Eboni-6 and my Carbon-6 midtones appear to be clog free.  The Eboni in my 7500 will occassionally need a cleaning cycle, but I don't think I've even had a clog with an ink made with the C6 base, which has a high glycerol content and no binder in it.  (I'm excluding from this generalization problems I've had with carts for the 1800 & 220.)  The HP-C6 dilutions also appear to be clog free, although the 1400 is the only printer I've had those in for an extended period.

So, if I had a 4000, I'd use some combination that used the dilute Eboni (needs agitation) and C6-diluted HP Z3100 PK (more stable than HP's own dilutions).  C6-diluted MIS PK is a warmer version of the 100% carbon approach that is also more stable in suspension than Epson's LK, according to my centrifuge tests.

The C6-dilution approach I'm referring to is described at 
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Ink-Mixing.pdf

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

No, it's not really possible to match Piezography inks fade-resistance with color pigments. We can get close to UC with ConeColor.

By example below, 70 MegaLux exposure of combined visible/UV (glass filtered sunlight) on targets comprised of 30 gray patches or 30 color patches:

PiezoTone CarbonSepia: avg deltaE 1.51
worst 10% avg deltaE 2.11 

Epson UltraChrome K3 ABW "Sepia" setting: avg deltaE 3.95
worst 10% avg deltaE 6.94 

ConeColor K3 inks: avg deltaE 7.95
worst 10% avg deltaE 13.61

Epson UltraChrome K3 inks: avg deltaE 5.13
worst 10% avg deltaE 12.12


All above are on Epson Velvet Fine Art paper - using Suntest XLS.
70 MegaLux equates to 8 Gallery Years or 35 Wilhelm Years.
Wilhelm can not actually measure for color shift - only density loss.
Wilhelm does not include any UV.

Aadenburg Imaging and Archives is now testing our inks at this point, and I will be abandoning my Suntest Atlas, because in my opinion Aardenburg's the only facility out there that gives useful and accurate color/density loss information to end-users rather than feeding only 35% density loss data to manufacturers who in turn lead users to believe its a holistic accounting of ink performance.

Jon

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "finnkrogvig" <reg@...> wrote:

>  Cone make a color inkset too, but I don't know if the color pigments are as fadeproof as the pigments in the K7 inksets. 
> 
> Finn

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Cone" <jon@...> wrote:

> 
> Aadenburg Imaging and Archives is now testing our inks at this point, and I will be abandoning my Suntest Atlas, because in my opinion Aardenburg's the only facility out there that gives useful and accurate color/density loss information to end-users rather than feeding only 35% density loss data to manufacturers who in turn lead users to believe its a holistic accounting of ink performance.
> 
> Jon


Why not keep the Sun machine and just use a spectro to look at color and density shifts? Just measuring density has always been a dumb idea, there are a lot of things that may not shift density very much, but change color radically.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark" <pr_roark@...> wrote:
>
> 
> > I have a 4000 and the clogging can be intensely irritating. ...
> 
> That machine does have a reputation for clogging.  I wonder what Epson did differently on it that caused that problem.  The frequency of complaints is like a throw-back to the 1280 days.
> 
> I have not used a K7 inkset, but with respect to the MIS offerings and the inks I've used, the matte-only Eboni-6 and my Carbon-6 midtones appear to be clog free.  The Eboni in my 7500 will occassionally need a cleaning cycle, but I don't think I've even had a clog with an ink made with the C6 base, which has a high glycerol content and no binder in it.  (I'm excluding from this generalization problems I've had with carts for the 1800 & 220.)  The HP-C6 dilutions also appear to be clog free, although the 1400 is the only printer I've had those in for an extended period.
> 
> So, if I had a 4000, I'd use some combination that used the dilute Eboni (needs agitation) and C6-diluted HP Z3100 PK (more stable than HP's own dilutions).  C6-diluted MIS PK is a warmer version of the 100% carbon approach that is also more stable in suspension than Epson's LK, according to my centrifuge tests.
> 
> The C6-dilution approach I'm referring to is described at 
> http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Ink-Mixing.pdf
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>


Thank you Paul for this very thorough answer.

I was hoping to avoid DIY solutions, even if it results in better prints because I don't have the time to experiment. I wanted something 'plug and play', but you and others bring up a good point: clogging.

My print sessions are going to be sporadic, with perhaps 1-6 months between uses. If the printer will clog after say 2 weeks, but even 8 months later it only takes 2 deep cleanings to unclog it then I'm OK with that. But if it means that after 3 days of non-usage I've got permanent clogs then I'll have to find another solution.

I see my options as follows:

1. Use the Epson inks but with QTR.
I've tried this but I could never quite get the result I wanted.

2. MIS UT7 set

3. Piezography K7 set

The response here has favored the K7 inkset, have those people tried the MIS and found it wanting, or did they just try the K7 and were happy enough to not try other solutons?

Nick

I have only tried Piezography and I am very happy with it. I have the Epson 4000 and I have had to do some cleaning cycles now and then when the printer has been out of action for a while - a week or so - or longer. Not too much trouble. I have used K7 inks on the Epson 1290 (1280) too with little trouble and that printer is known to be rather "cloggy". I think K7 inks must be a good match for printers that might be prone to get clogs. -I have not heard that about the 4000 before this tread - and I would not say that about the one I have.

I do not have any experience with the MIS inksets.

FinnK


Finn--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "lambonick" <BMWNick@...> wrote:

>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@...m, "pr_roark" <pr_roark@> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > > I have a 4000 and the clogging can be intensely irritating. ...
> > 
> > That machine does have a reputation for clogging.  I wonder what Epson did differently on it that caused that problem.  The frequency of complaints is like a throw-back to the 1280 days.
> > 
> > I have not used a K7 inkset, but with respect to the MIS offerings and the inks I've used, the matte-only Eboni-6 and my Carbon-6 midtones appear to be clog free.  The Eboni in my 7500 will occassionally need a cleaning cycle, but I don't think I've even had a clog with an ink made with the C6 base, which has a high glycerol content and no binder in it.  (I'm excluding from this generalization problems I've had with carts for the 1800 & 220.)  The HP-C6 dilutions also appear to be clog free, although the 1400 is the only printer I've had those in for an extended period.
> > 
> > So, if I had a 4000, I'd use some combination that used the dilute Eboni (needs agitation) and C6-diluted HP Z3100 PK (more stable than HP's own dilutions).  C6-diluted MIS PK is a warmer version of the 100% carbon approach that is also more stable in suspension than Epson's LK, according to my centrifuge tests.
> > 
> > The C6-dilution approach I'm referring to is described at 
> > http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Ink-Mixing.pdf
> > 
> > Paul
> > www.PaulRoark.com
> >
> 
> 
> Thank you Paul for this very thorough answer.
> 
> I was hoping to avoid DIY solutions, even if it results in better prints because I don't have the time to experiment. I wanted something 'plug and play', but you and others bring up a good point: clogging.
> 
> My print sessions are going to be sporadic, with perhaps 1-6 months between uses. If the printer will clog after say 2 weeks, but even 8 months later it only takes 2 deep cleanings to unclog it then I'm OK with that. But if it means that after 3 days of non-usage I've got permanent clogs then I'll have to find another solution.
> 
> I see my options as follows:
> 
> 1. Use the Epson inks but with QTR.
> I've tried this but I could never quite get the result I wanted.
> 
> 2. MIS UT7 set
> 
> 3. Piezography K7 set
> 
> The response here has favored the K7 inkset, have those people tried the MIS and found it wanting, or did they just try the K7 and were happy enough to not try other solutons?
> 
> Nick
>