Digital BW, The Print

Hi,
I printed some very very nice looking BO-prints
with my claria r280 (r285 here in Germany) printer an the claria black ink. With the qtr-profiles from 
Carl Schofield (thanks for these) I did some prints on Harman
Fiber Base Gloss and Epson Premium Gloss, which really look 
good and (esp the harman) make me think seriously about giving up my darkroom
if I could have this bigger than letter-size. 
Now I want to go on in b&w black only printing and
I´m thinking about buying (ebay) an r1800 (and the mis inks for mk-3 on matte papers) or an r1400
(claria- BO on Harman fiber base gl.) If I put longetivety and the glossy-matte question
 aside.
What difference concerning smoothness, image-tone, and "look" can I aspect from
the two different aproaches. I hope there are some people out there wo have seen 
prints from both systems.

Marcus

----- Original Message ----- 

  From: luxlebis 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 9:28 AM
  Subject: [Digital BW] r1800 and mk-3 or r1400 for BO-printing
  Hello..
  From personal experience, and what I've read, I would definitely go with th 1400 with MIS UT-14 inkset..I've been using this combo since November with great results (IMHO)..good Luck!

  Eddie





  Hi,
  I printed some very very nice looking BO-prints
  with my claria r280 (r285 here in Germany) printer an the claria black ink. With the qtr-profiles from 
  Carl Schofield (thanks for these) I did some prints on Harman
  Fiber Base Gloss and Epson Premium Gloss, which really look 
  good and (esp the harman) make me think seriously about giving up my darkroom
  if I could have this bigger than letter-size. 
  Now I want to go on in b&w black only printing and
  I´m thinking about buying (ebay) an r1800 (and the mis inks for mk-3 on matte papers) or an r1400
  (claria- BO on Harman fiber base gl.) If I put longetivety and the glossy-matte question
  aside.
  What difference concerning smoothness, image-tone, and "look" can I aspect from
  the two different aproaches. I hope there are some people out there wo have seen 
  prints from both systems.

  Marcus



  

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi,
I thought about the UT-14 or other full inksets
too, but I´m fascinated by the beauty and simplicity
of BO and of course the I can print color with the same printer.

Marcus

> ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: luxlebis 
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
>   Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 9:28 AM
>   Subject: [Digital BW] r1800 and mk-3 or r1400 for BO-printing
>   Hello..
>   From personal experience, and what I've read, I would definitely go with th 1400 with MIS UT-14 inkset..I've been using this combo since November with great results (IMHO)..good Luck!
> 
>   Eddie
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   Hi,
>   I printed some very very nice looking BO-prints
>   with my claria r280 (r285 here in Germany) printer an the claria black ink. With the qtr-profiles from 
>   Carl Schofield (thanks for these) I did some prints on Harman
>   Fiber Base Gloss and Epson Premium Gloss, which really look 
>   good and (esp the harman) make me think seriously about giving up my darkroom
>   if I could have this bigger than letter-size. 
>   Now I want to go on in b&w black only printing and
>   I´m thinking about buying (ebay) an r1800 (and the mis inks for mk-3 on matte papers) or an r1400
>   (claria- BO on Harman fiber base gl.) If I put longetivety and the glossy-matte question
>   aside.
>   What difference concerning smoothness, image-tone, and "look" can I aspect from
>   the two different aproaches. I hope there are some people out there wo have seen 
>   prints from both systems.
> 
>   Marcus
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

"luxlebis" <luxlebis@...> wrote:
>
> I printed some very very nice looking BO-prints
> with my claria r280 (r285 here in Germany) ...

> I´m thinking about buying (ebay) an r1800 (and the mis 
> inks for mk-3 on matte papers) or an r1400
> (claria- BO on Harman fiber base gl.) 

> If I put longetivety and the glossy-matte question aside.
> What difference concerning smoothness, image-tone, and "look" 
> can I aspect from the two different aproaches. 

If your 1400 doesn't microband (and my 1400 does not to any significant extent) the Claria BO will be smoother but also a bit greener.  The tone can be corrected with the Claria color inks if it's a problem.  You ought to be able to get prints with the 1400 and Claria that are at least as good as with your R285.

(Then when you want to move up to pigments, HP Z3100 PK does very well in the 1400.)

The 1800 needs the 3MK workflow to avoid microbanding, in my experience.  The matte prints will have a graininess in the midtones that some find a bit rough if, for example, you have a plain gray sky.  For most images, I find the 3MK workflow sufficiently smooth.

My 1400 with Eboni BO is smoother than the 1800 3MK.  In general, a single channel of Eboni is smoother that multiple channels, but a single channel is more likely to microband.  So, in part, with these black only approaches, the fewer black inks one needs to hide the microbanding, the smoother the print.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark" <pr_roark@...> wrote:
>
> "luxlebis" <luxlebis@> wrote:
> >
> > I printed some very very nice looking BO-prints
> > with my claria r280 (r285 here in Germany) ...
> 
> > I´m thinking about buying (ebay) an r1800 (and the mis 
> > inks for mk-3 on matte papers) or an r1400
> > (claria- BO on Harman fiber base gl.) 
> 
> > If I put longetivety and the glossy-matte question aside.
> > What difference concerning smoothness, image-tone, and "look" 
> > can I aspect from the two different aproaches. 
> 
> If your 1400 doesn't microband (and my 1400 does not to any significant extent) the Claria BO will be smoother but also a bit greener.  The tone can be corrected with the Claria color inks if it's a problem.  You ought to be able to get prints with the 1400 and Claria that are at least as good as with your R285.
> 
> (Then when you want to move up to pigments, HP Z3100 PK does very well in the 1400.)
> 
> The 1800 needs the 3MK workflow to avoid microbanding, in my experience.  The matte prints will have a graininess in the midtones that some find a bit rough if, for example, you have a plain gray sky.  For most images, I find the 3MK workflow sufficiently smooth.
> 
> My 1400 with Eboni BO is smoother than the 1800 3MK.  In general, a single channel of Eboni is smoother that multiple channels, but a single channel is more likely to microband.  So, in part, with these black only approaches, the fewer black inks one needs to hide the microbanding, the smoother the print.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>
Hallo Paul,
thanks for your advice. Maybe I
try eboni-BO first in my letter-size
r285. In my claria BO-prints microbanding
is no problem. The problem is I can´t switch
just the black catridge as far as I know. 
Is this possible with the r1400? If that is possible I
can switch between claria and eboni-BO for
matte and glossy fiberbase prints and can
have glossy-color prints. I think
this would be perfect for me.

Marcus

"luxlebis" <luxlebis@...> wrote:
>
>... The problem is I can´t switch
> just the black catridge as far as I know. 
> Is this possible with the r1400? ...

I suspect that is a problem on the 1400 also.  I use MIS color inks and carts in my 260, so I don't run into the issue.  I don't know if any third party chip can be in a system with OEM Epson chips in the Claria line.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark" <pr_roark@...> wrote:
>
> "luxlebis" <luxlebis@> wrote:
> >
> >... The problem is I can´t switch
> > just the black catridge as far as I know. 
> > Is this possible with the r1400? ...
> 
> I suspect that is a problem on the 1400 also.  I use MIS color inks and carts in my 260, so I don't run into the issue.  I don't know if any third party chip can be in a system with OEM Epson chips in the Claria line.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>
I will ask the people who sell
MIS-inks in germany before I go on.
By the way, the prints on Harman Fiber Base gl
look not green to my eyes with only the black claria
(maybe it´s not so white). I´ve seen your
claria-profiles with a hint of LM to neutralize
the green tint. Which one would you consider to match
the harman-paper. In germany we don´t have the redriver-papers
you used, and I can´t relinearize the profiles, cause I have
no densitometer or whatever I need for that. On other pearl or glossy
papers your claria profiles looked good.

Marcus

"luxlebis" <luxlebis@...> wrote:
>

> I will ask the people who sell
> MIS-inks in germany before I go on.

Some in Europe buy direct from MIS, but I'm not up to speed on what works best in that regard.


> ... I´ve seen your
> claria-profiles with a hint of LM to neutralize
> the green tint. Which one would you consider to match
> the harman-paper.

Try the glossy paper versions.

> ... I can´t relinearize the profiles, cause I have
> no densitometer or whatever I need for that. 

If you have a flatbed scanner, that can often do a good job.  See 
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Making_B-W_ICCs-GrayCard.pdf 

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark" <pr_roark@...> wrote:
>
> "luxlebis" <luxlebis@> wrote:
> >
> 
> > I will ask the people who sell
> > MIS-inks in germany before I go on.
> 
> Some in Europe buy direct from MIS, but I'm not up to speed on what works best in that regard.
> 
> 
> > ... I´ve seen your
> > claria-profiles with a hint of LM to neutralize
> > the green tint. Which one would you consider to match
> > the harman-paper.
> 
> Try the glossy paper versions.
> 
> > ... I can´t relinearize the profiles, cause I have
> > no densitometer or whatever I need for that. 
> 
> If you have a flatbed scanner, that can often do a good job.  See 
> http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Making_B-W_ICCs-GrayCard.pdf 
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>
Thank you Paul,
I will try with my flatbed scanner.
Yesterday I used your profiles for the matte
papers and though the dmax is not the best
the prints look good with claria inks too.
Great work !

Marcus

"luxlebis" <luxlebis@...> wrote:
>
>... I used your profiles for the matte
> papers and though the dmax is not the best
> the prints look good with claria inks too.

The ink limit is probably off.  I made the profiles on a 260, and I suspect your 1400 needs a different ink limit.  You can print a calibration mode print or a 21-step with a profile that is just a straight line from 0 - 100 (coordinates (0,0) and (100, 100) in the List Points box) to set the ink limit.  You're flatbed scanner can probably determine which test patch is darkest.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

I've also used a digital camera for this- just "expose to the right."

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark" <pr_roark@...> wrote:

>
> "luxlebis" <luxlebis@> wrote:
> >
> >... I used your profiles for the matte
> > papers and though the dmax is not the best
> > the prints look good with claria inks too.
> 
> The ink limit is probably off.  I made the profiles on a 260, and I suspect your 1400 needs a different ink limit.  You can print a calibration mode print or a 21-step with a profile that is just a straight line from 0 - 100 (coordinates (0,0) and (100, 100) in the List Points box) to set the ink limit.  You're flatbed scanner can probably determine which test patch is darkest.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

I've looked for a "List Points" box in QTR and I cannot find it. It's
probably right in front of me, but can you tell me what menu or dialog
box contains that option? I'm using 2.6.2 for Windows.

Andrew

On 06/03/2009 08:53 AM, pr_roark wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> "luxlebis" <luxlebis@...> wrote:
>>
>>... I used your profiles for the matte
>> papers and though the dmax is not the best
>> the prints look good with claria inks too.
> 
> The ink limit is probably off. I made the profiles on a 260, and I
> suspect your 1400 needs a different ink limit. You can print a
> calibration mode print or a 21-step with a profile that is just a
> straight line from 0 - 100 (coordinates (0,0) and (100, 100) in the List
> Points box) to set the ink limit. You're flatbed scanner can probably
> determine which test patch is darkest.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
> 
>

Andrew Sharpe <asharpe@...> wrote:
>
> I've looked for a "List Points" box in QTR and I cannot find it.

First, bring up the Curves Creator (Tools>Curve Creation).

Then under the ink you want to profile -- like Black(K) -- scroll down to "Load Curve."  Push the "Curve" button that will appear just to the right.  When you push that button, a box will appear that has 2 tabs.  One of these is "Point List."  Click on that tab.

You'll then have a series of boxes that are the coordinates for the points.  I use this to write complex curves, but more often what I do here is make a straight line curve for the black ink either to set the ink limit or see the black ink distribution at the ink limit for purposes of setting the relative densities for gray ink partitioning in the Curve Creator.  

If I want to find the K ink limit, the curve I generate is K-0-100.  This just takes two point: (0,0) and (100,100).  Check the curve with the "Preview Curve" button at the bottom right of that box.  Usually I get this limit, however, from the first Calibration Print which is made at 100%.  

Often I use the Point List to make a second 21-step of the black ink at the ink limit.  In fact, I usually put this print on the end of the Calibration curve output.  There's room.  For example, today I was profiling a paper that hit a dmax at 40, but it was very low contrast between 30 and 40.  So, I decided to set the K ink limit at 30, and then use the black boost to go the rest of the way to 40 for that ink.  But for the relative densities, I made a 21-step with a K-0-30 straight line curve and used that output to find the relative densities for the other gray inks to be partitioned.  I kept the ink limits for those midtone grays relatively low to make more efficient use of the inks.  With this approach the pre-linearized QTR output is really quite good already.  That makes it linarize very well.

Hope this helps.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com