Digital BW, The Print

I'm about to replace my Epson 7600 with an Epson 7900 and am wondering I can switch the old printer over to an all-black configuration.  I'm looking for recommendations, especially from someone who had successfully made this switch.

Thanks in advance.

Fred Drury
Markland Imaging

In a message dated 6/28/2009 12:42:02 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
fotofred2@... writes:

I'm  about to replace my Epson 7600 with an Epson 7900 and am wondering I 
can  switch the old printer over to an all-black configuration.  I'm looking  
for recommendations, especially from someone who had successfully made this 
 switch.




My 7600 is loaded with Jon Cone's Piezography NK 7 inks and I'm about to  
load my other 7600 with Piezo Special Edition K 7. The combination has been 
very  agreeable, with no clogging problems for over a year. If you're 
planning on  going dedicated monochrome, I heartily recommend using your 7600... a 
real  workhorse printer.
 
Rich
_www.rmassiephotography.com_ (http://www.rmassiephotography.com) 
 
 
**************An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy 
Steps! 
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221323006x1201367222/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=62&bcd=Jun
eExcfooterNO62)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I agree with Richard, I've seen the K7 sets loaded in several Epson models now, included being there when they were installed and set up from scratch, QTR software also. It just works, the inks have been more problem free than even the OEMs, and the entire system if instructions are followed is plug and play, quickly and easily. Make sure you give Roy his $50, far more than deserved. The Neutrals, Seleniums, Special Edition, and Sepia sets are all gorgeous. The Sepias, in particular, if you like warm prints, are underrated, perhaps sepia too strong a name for them. The only problems I've witnessed, or heard about, are from 4xxx users, I'm not sure why, something about ink delivery, particularly the 4000. Still there are successful users with those models as well. The 7600 is a great printer for these setups, and can probably be had for nearly free. I'd be hording them if there were some locally available.
I'd wait to see if Paul Roark replies with info about his developments that would be good in the 7600 as well. But I think you are in a ideal position to have a great B&W setup, top print quality available from ink.
Tyler
http://www.custom-digital.com/

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, CorrPro96@... wrote:

>
>  
> In a message dated 6/28/2009 12:42:02 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
> fotofred2@... writes:
> 
> I'm  about to replace my Epson 7600 with an Epson 7900 and am wondering...
> 
> My 7600 is loaded with Jon Cone's Piezography NK 7 inks and I'm about to  
> load my other 7600 with Piezo Special Edition K 7. ...
> Rich
> _www.rmassiephotography.com_ (http://www.rmassiephotography.com)

The 7600 really is teh last, best user servicable print engine.  Kind of like cars that you could actually work on yourself. ;>)

I consider them generic devices thgrough which you can put whatever ink set you choose.  They are built to industrial standard, yet cost less than an Epson 2400 used nowadays, $500 or less. Most have only a liter or two of ink through them.

I set up one 7600 last year with a variation of Paul's C6 ink set.  I also made a 5K+GLOP ink set using Epson BPhoto Black. I was quite happy with the results of both. 

Now I am going to make a new ink set using the HP Vivera Photo Black, per Paul's latest experimentation. 

I am going to go photo black (glossy) only.  After the release of the baryta papers I decided to abandon matte papers for most purposes. Makes life much simpler. 

Longevity seems sufficient, I am not hyper-obsessed about no OBA's, etc.  No-one cares that much about my images!  ;>)

Cheers folks, sorry for the long absence. Trying to manage pain problems.  

Thanks too to Tyler in the past for hjelping to define/refine the photo black GLOP process. I finally found an e-mail from you from last August in trash from Yahoo (too much spam there, unfortunately)

Best,
Michael

I been posting a similar thread on the QTR forum so I was overjoyed to see an identical discussion here.

I am spooked by the settling issue that Mr. Roark highlights. I am not a daily printer, usually do a run twice a month.

I bought a HP9180 to do some testing and other than a bronzing issue, HP has made some significant progress.

I'm wanting to use either the Harman or Galleria Silk baryta paper. Mr. Roark's work with the HP Viveras inks, will that solve the infrequent use issue?

bob



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Michael T. Murphy" <uriel_bear@...> wrote:

> 
> I set up one 7600 last year with a variation of Paul's C6 ink set.  I also made a 5K+GLOP ink set using Epson BPhoto Black. I was quite happy with the results of both. 
> 
> Now I am going to make a new ink set using the HP Vivera Photo Black, per Paul's latest experimentation. 
> 
> I am going to go photo black (glossy) only.  After the release of the baryta papers I decided to abandon matte papers for most purposes. Makes life much simpler. 
> 

> Best,
> Michael
>

> "Bob McCarthy" <jokker.mcc@...> wrote:
>
> I am spooked by the settling issue that Mr. Roark highlights. I am not a daily printer, usually do a run twice a month.
> 

Slow holiday weekend here - sorry!

This is the best summary I could find on settling from Paul's posts. You might also check the info on his web site for the HP inks:

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/message/95151


Took me a while of looking for old threads. I finally did a search on "centrifuge", as he has been using one to test ink seperation.  

You can wade through the posts if you like. The above is a  good place to start though.

Cheers!
Michael

In a message dated 7/5/2009 10:35:59 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
uriel_bear@... writes:

>  "Bob McCarthy" <jokker.mcc@...> wrote:
>
> I am spooked by  the settling issue that Mr. Roark highlights. I am not a 
daily printer,  usually do a run twice a month.
> 



It IS a good idea to remove and shake cartridges (particularly 220ml) from  
time to time. It's a gentle shake (2 back, 2 forward) and keeps the pigment 
 in suspension. In your case, I would do a shake each time I start a print  
session. This is true of ALL pigment inks.
 
Rich
_www.rmassiephotography.com_ (http://www.rmassiephotography.com) 
 
 
**************An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy 
Steps! 
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222887319x1201497660/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=62&bcd=Jul
yExcfooterNO62)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> It IS a good idea to remove and shake cartridges (particularly 220ml) from
> time to time. It's a gentle shake (2 back, 2 forward) and keeps the 
> pigment
> in suspension. In your case, I would do a shake each time I start a print
> session. This is true of ALL pigment inks.

I'm sure I've read an Epson recommendation to shake big carts once a month. 
And in some of the smaller carts they are now putting small beads that move 
around as the carts hurtle back and forth across the printer, thus stirring 
the ink.

Bob Frost.

--------------------------------------------------
From: <CorrPro96@...>

Thanks, I began wading through. A great deal of writing exists on this  
site. Lots of homework to do.

Thanks againb,

bob

It's all starting to make sense, but the more I dig in the more that I  
realize i don't know.

Let me lay out a few ideas, please correct me if I make any mistakes.



Using the QTR rip is producing better prints than the Epson driver, I  
am seeing little to no metamerism and no bronzing with the papers I  
normally use. So I now have a baseline position

	Things to understand - how to create curves (profiles) to control the  
rip. I'm just using supplied curves that came with the program. I'm  
not clear on the 		process yet. This is an area that I have to spend  
time getting to know.


Papers still have the great divide between both matte and glossier  
finishes. There is not one ink set that can do all. Still have to  
choose. Or change inks which is wasteful.


Infrequent printing is something that requires attention to agitating  
the inks on a schedule.  The more carts that are used for intermediary  
dilutions, the more attention required.


I'm going to have to invest in a set of cleaning carts, it it  
essential to have a complete flush, or is just as good to create a 6  
inch cleaning gap in the lines.


I would like the have an easy solution for the first try, premixed  
carts would be the best place to start, unless the cards offered are  
old think and the crowd has moved on.

	For example, with the RIP, I received a pretty complete set of  
profiles for K-7 with the RIP. It's the profiling that I'm not  
comfortable with yet. Should I just 		start with established or should  
I move to more recent thinking and get busy sorting out profile making?

I soft proof, how does this happen with a rip?


Thanks for all the help.

bob

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Bob McCarthy <jokker.mcc@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks, I began wading through. A great deal of writing exists on this  
> site. Lots of homework to do.
> 
> Thanks againb,
> 
> bob
>
If your 7600 is on the Epson stand unlock the wheels and roll the whole printer  sideways and back and forth a few times - pretty effective - much less wear and tear on the carts  - daily printing of a purge page is also a good idea- and is cheaper than repeated cleanings/power cleans and other ways to move ink in the lines

Berel Lutsky

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Bob McCarthy <jokker.mcc@...> wrote:
>
...
> Infrequent printing is something that requires attention to agitating  
> the inks on a schedule.  The more carts that are used for intermediary  
> dilutions, the more attention required.

 no matter the specific ink set, or dilutions, or how frequent the printing, agitate the carts about every 2 weeks or so. It's a simple part of large format Epson life. It's really no big deal.

...
regarding profiling and qtr curve creation, you do none of that with the K7s, it's all provided. Additionally, the curves provided are not re-tweakable by the user anyway.
Others providing QTR setups for other inksets will be able to speak to the situation regarding those setups, and what is required.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley" <tyler@...> wrote:
>

> 
>  no matter the specific ink set, or dilutions, or how frequent the printing, agitate the carts about every 2 weeks or so. It's a simple part of large format Epson life. It's really no big deal.


Agreed, this is a good suggestions, others have also suggested the same. 



> 
> ...
> regarding profiling and qtr curve creation, you do none of that with the K7s, it's all provided. Additionally, the curves provided are not re-tweakable by the user anyway.
> Others providing QTR setups for other inksets will be able to speak to the situation regarding those setups, and what is required.
> Tyler
>
If I wanted to try another ink setup, is there a location for the curves for E-6 for example.

I've looked and haven't located a repository for them. This ois my only stumbling block at the present and how does this curve work in relation to soft proofing?

bob

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Bob McCarthy" <jokker.mcc@...> wrote:
>
....
> If I wanted to try another ink setup, is there a location for the curves for E-6 for example.
> 
> I've looked and haven't located a repository for them. This ois my only stumbling block at the present and how does this curve work in relation to soft proofing?
> 
> bob
>

I'm afraid E-6 users will have to reply, I don't know.

Regarding soft proof, most curve makers calibrate to conform to some standard. Gamma 2.2 for Cone, LAB for Roy and those that use QTR tools, not sure about any others.
So, for standard curves that come with QTR, you can soft proof with one of his LAB profles, and/or work in that space. Same with Cone and 2.2. Additionally, if you can get, or make, QTR icc profiles, you can soft proof with those. Sometimes Cone distributes some for soft proof only.
If you don't print through them, but print straight from the file in native work space, check preserve color numbers in soft proof.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Bob McCarthy" <jokker.mcc@...> wrote:
>
> If I wanted to try another ink setup, is there a location for the curves for E-6 for example.
> 
> I've looked and haven't located a repository for them. This ois my 
only stumbling block at the present and how does this curve work in 
relation to soft proofing?
> 
> bob
>
For Eboni-6 with 7600 QTR workflow, you have to hear from Paul Roark.

According his homepage: http://www.goldentroutworkshops.org/, he is 
conducting the Golden Trout Camp workshop till end of July 11.

I have been wading through the wealth of info available here and at Paul Roarks site.

I did find mention of a 2 ink set with Eboni black and a 6% (could be a touch off here) that works well on the X600 series of printers. I'm still searching for more info. Does this replace the epson black and light grey and leave the color inks in the printer for toning and occasional color print.

Seems like a good first baby step.

Looking for something concrete, not finding anything so far. Anyone have this setup and is the info bookmarked on anyones computer.

bob



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Bob McCarthy <jokker.mcc@...> wrote:

>
> It's all starting to make sense, but the more I dig in the more that I  
> realize i don't know.
> 
> Let me lay out a few ideas, please correct me if I make any mistakes.
> 
> 
> 
> Using the QTR rip is producing better prints than the Epson driver,

Bob,

Do you have a set of Cone K-7 inks with a RIP? If so, all of the work has alreadu been done for you by Cone and the RIP manufacturer. 

There is another "Piezography" forum here for Cone inks. Then you can avoid most of this other nonesense if you are willing to dedicate a 7600 to B&W.

If you still want a color machine, you can buy a great condition used 7600 for $500 or less.

Just want to be clear before we steer you off to never-never land. This "roll your own" stuff is for some of us who are a) obsessive, b) bored, or c) cheap.  ;>)

This from a previous post of yours:

>For example, with the RIP, I received a pretty complete set of
>profiles for K-7 with the RIP. It's the profiling that I'm not
>comfortable with yet. Should I just start with established or should
>I move to more recent thinking and get busy sorting out profile making?

Hi Michael,

I had the printer going into retirement and it has barely been used. We bought a few years back it to print banners for the many trade shows we do.

I had a full set (as in cart's are full) of Epson inks in the machine with photo black in the photo/matte position.

I tried the Epson driver with black and white. Not very good, so I downloaded the QTR rip and ran a few prints, wow what a difference.

I spend years in the darkroom and still mix my developers from raw chemicals. I still shoot with view cameras so fiddling is a known way to work. I can see that cone is turnkey, but the education I'm getting is as exciting as  the prints.

I certainly fit into a) and c), it's rare that b) shows up, it's more like d) (panic). My customers are real estate developers. UGGGG

I don't mind doing things the hard way if I get the result I'm looking for.
bob


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Michael T. Murphy" <uriel_bear@...> wrote:

>
> Bob,
> 
> Do you have a set of Cone K-7 inks with a RIP? If so, all of the work has alreadu been done for you by Cone and the RIP manufacturer. 
> 
> There is another "Piezography" forum here for Cone inks. Then you can avoid most of this other nonesense if you are willing to dedicate a 7600 to B&W.
> 
> If you still want a color machine, you can buy a great condition used 7600 for $500 or less.
> 
> Just want to be clear before we steer you off to never-never land. This "roll your own" stuff is for some of us who are a) obsessive, b) bored, or c) cheap.  ;>)
> 
> This from a previous post of yours:
> 
> >For example, with the RIP, I received a pretty complete set of
> >profiles for K-7 with the RIP. It's the profiling that I'm not
> >comfortable with yet. Should I just start with established or should
> >I move to more recent thinking and get busy sorting out profile making?
>

That needs to be on a t-shirt :)

Mark
http://www.stillrivereditions.com

On Jul 7, 2009, at 2:37 PM, Bob McCarthy wrote:

> I don't mind doing things the hard way if I get the result I'm  
> looking for.
> bob

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Michael T. Murphy" <uriel_bear@...> wrote:
>
> Bob,
> 
> Do you have a set of Cone K-7 inks with a RIP? If so, all of the work has alreadu been done for you by Cone and the RIP manufacturer. 
> 
> There is another "Piezography" forum here for Cone inks. Then you can avoid most of this other nonesense if you are willing to dedicate a 7600 to B&W.
> 
> If you still want a color machine, you can buy a great condition used 7600 for $500 or less.
> 
> Just want to be clear before we steer you off to never-never land. This "roll your own" stuff is for some of us who are a) obsessive, b) bored, or c) cheap.  ;>)
> 
> This from a previous post of yours:
> 
> >For example, with the RIP, I received a pretty complete set of
> >profiles for K-7 with the RIP. It's the profiling that I'm not
> >comfortable with yet. Should I just start with established or should
> >I move to more recent thinking and get busy sorting out profile making?
>If you can dedicate a printer to BW - 7600 w/K7 printed through QTR with the Cone curves - is a very good way to go - some soft proof profiles are also available or you can make your own  - chief advantage is that the provided curves are made with good equipment by people who know what they are  doing and have a smoother ramp and overlap than what you can make yourself using QTR - Inks are lightfast and as they are all carbon based - no color shifting, - split toning is available- If you like matte papers or BW then there is no issue of GLOP- AND if you have another printer available anyway - gloss BW and more toning is still an option for you using your color inkset and QTR - Its not just about obsessive, bored or cheap as much as it is where you want to put your time and energy - I would rather be making and printing images than printing and measuring step wedges 

Berel lutsky

Beryl,

I know you're right, but my stubborn side wants to try to do it myself. After agonizing on it I'll likely come around to you suggestion.

I decided to print on Baryta papers. I'm using them on my desktop HP with good result i color and they are pretty nice in B&W also.

I've been testing Ilford Galleria GS and Hahn Photo Rag Baryta with the epson photo black and QTR.

My latest thinking on the Epson is 3HP/K+3HP/KLL (2%), + glop would work nicely with these papers. I'm using the HP inks on a 9180 and it does an exceptional neutral black.

But I'm making tons of assumptions here and would appreciate someone telling me I'm foolish and barking up the wrong tree.

The 7600 would be dedicated to B&W and its not very good with color (OK with matte) anyway.

Bob




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Berel Lutsky" <berel.lutsky@...> wrote:

>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Michael T. Murphy" <uriel_bear@> wrote:
> >
> > Bob,
> > 
> > Do you have a set of Cone K-7 inks with a RIP? If so, all of the work has alreadu been done for you by Cone and the RIP manufacturer. 
> > 
> > There is another "Piezography" forum here for Cone inks. Then you can avoid most of this other nonesense if you are willing to dedicate a 7600 to B&W.
> > 
> > If you still want a color machine, you can buy a great condition used 7600 for $500 or less.
> > 
> > Just want to be clear before we steer you off to never-never land. This "roll your own" stuff is for some of us who are a) obsessive, b) bored, or c) cheap.  ;>)
> > 
> > This from a previous post of yours:
> > 
> > >For example, with the RIP, I received a pretty complete set of
> > >profiles for K-7 with the RIP. It's the profiling that I'm not
> > >comfortable with yet. Should I just start with established or should
> > >I move to more recent thinking and get busy sorting out profile making?
> >If you can dedicate a printer to BW - 7600 w/K7 printed through QTR with the Cone curves - is a very good way to go - some soft proof profiles are also available or you can make your own  - chief advantage is that the provided curves are made with good equipment by people who know what they are  doing and have a smoother ramp and overlap than what you can make yourself using QTR - Inks are lightfast and as they are all carbon based - no color shifting, - split toning is available- If you like matte papers or BW then there is no issue of GLOP- AND if you have another printer available anyway - gloss BW and more toning is still an option for you using your color inkset and QTR - Its not just about obsessive, bored or cheap as much as it is where you want to put your time and energy - I would rather be making and printing images than printing and measuring step wedges 
> 
> Berel lutsky
>