Digital BW, The Print

I'm going to upgrade to an A2 printer within a month or two, and I'm going to get one of these three printers. Incredibly, I can get all three for exactly the same price - A used 4800 in very good condition, a brand new 3800 or a brand new Canon IPF 5100 that's on a super promotion from a photo store because they want to get rid of it.

Why would I even consider a 3800 when I can get a 4800 for the same price? If it wasn't for the costly and time consuming black ink swap I'd just get the 4800 now and not even consider anything else. I've printed on matte papers for many years now, but recently I've really wanted to explore the new fibre based glossy papers and possibly switch to that. But I see a period of time coming where I will want to print on both just to experiment so this is really a huge turn off when it comes to the 4800.

Another thing the 3800 seems to do better is handling small papers and borderless printing on sheet papers. The 4800 and 5100 can only print borderless on rolls and the smallest sheet size possible is 8x10 I think. Neither is a very big deal for me, as this appears to be a limitation of all big professional grade printers.

The Canon seems attractive. It's HUGE though. Even bigger than the 4800. I think I can fit it in, and even got permission from my wife to put it in our bedroom/office, so I'm not going to let that be a decisive factor. The limited print head warranty is more worrying. It has about one year warranty and is treated as a consumable. Buying new print heads (there's two of them) will cost me around $1200, nearly doubling the price of the printer. With the volume I print I expect the heads to last much longer than that, but still...

Other than that I hear many good things about the Canon printer. It never clogs, doesn't have microbanding problems, handles papers very well, has a motorized roll feed, prints much faster than either of the Epsons, uses less ink, and is self linearizing.

I've found the Canon wiki which goes into much more detail:
http://canonipf.wikispaces.com/

Does any of you have experience with the Canon printer? I'm very familiar with Epson printers so I know what I'm dealing with there, but the Canon printer is new for me. In particular I'm interested to know more about BW print quality on both matte and glossy papers compared to Epson. After all, that is what I will print most, and I simply don't trust reviewers who don't primarily shoot BW who says the printer makes very good BW prints.

How is gloss differential and bronzing? How is the dmax on various papers (both matte and glossy)?

If anyone would be willing to send me some sample prints from the Canon, or even print out a few of my own images for me I'd be happy to pay you for the trouble.

Thanks!

Hello, I went through the same thing with choosing a new printer. I did side by side tests with all 3 of the printers you mentioned. I ended up choosing the epson 3800 for several reasons. First the Epson switches from photo to matt in easily. Hardly any ink loss at all as far as I can tell. I did side by side prints from the same file on all 3 printers and the Epson definitely had better reds then the canon. Also the size of the Epson was very good. The 3 printers do almost the same thing in the end but I did feel that the Epson had a slightly more vibrant result. I am still working on the first set of inks even after the first charging. At the price the 3800 was a great deal. I did have a problem tho. The first 3800 that I had made funny noises and upon close inspection of the prints I had banding in the shadow areas. I notified Epson and they told me to take the unit back to the store and it was replaced with no questions. The  only thing that I can complain about is the 3800 has a chintzy magnet holding the front door closed and after avery short time this little piece of metal comes off because it is attached with awful glue that cant hold anything in place especially metal to plastic. To solve this problem I took the piece of metal and heated it really hot and it melted into the plastic where it attached and it has not come off since. I really like the 3800 so far. It does magnificent B&W prints on any paper. The color prints are vibr
ant and very smooth. The fiber based glossy papers are great with this printer. There is almost no bronzing but if you look hard enough and turn the prints sideways just the right way you can barely make out that problem. Over all the printer works great. It is also fairly fast. I had another Epson printer for 8 years with no problem and I feel that the 3800 will behave the same way. Also Epson has great support which is very important to me. As I said I did side by side testing and the Epson definitely won when it came to vibrancy and better reds. As far as B&W printing the Epson is amazing. Any questions please feel free to ask. Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: danielstaver <daniel@petraflux.com>
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, Jul 6, 2009 5:30 pm
Subject: [Digital BW] Canon IPF 5100 vs Epson 3800 vs Epson 4800


























    

            
            


      
      
I'm going to upgrade to an A2 printer within a month or two, and I'm going to get one of these three printers. Incredibly, I can get all three for exactly the same price - A used 4800 in very good condition, a brand new 3800 or a brand new Canon IPF 5100 that's on a super promotion from a photo store because they want to get rid of it.



Why would I even consider a 3800 when I can get a 4800 for the same price? If it wasn't for the costly and time consuming=2
0black ink swap I'd just get the 4800 now and not even consider anything else. I've printed on matte papers for many years now, but recently I've really wanted to explore the new fibre based glossy papers and possibly switch to that. But I see a period of time coming where I will want to print on both just to experiment so this is really a huge turn off when it comes to the 4800.



Another thing the 3800 seems to do better is handling small papers and borderless printing on sheet papers. The 4800 and 5100 can only print borderless on rolls and the smallest sheet size possible is 8x10 I think. Neither is a very big deal for me, as this appears to be a limitation of all big professional grade printers.



The Canon seems attractive. It's HUGE though. Even bigger than the 4800. I think I can fit it in, and even got permission from my wife to put it in our bedroom/office, so I'm not going to let that be a decisive factor. The limited print head warranty is more worrying. It has about one year warranty and is treated as a consumable. Buying new print heads (there's two of them) will cost me around $1200, nearly doubling the price of the printer. With the volume I print I expect the heads to last much longer than that, but still...



Other than that I hear many good things about the Canon printer. It never clogs, doesn't have microbanding problems, handles papers very well, has a motorized roll feed, prints much faster than either of the Epsons, uses less ink, an
d is self linearizing.



I've found the Canon wiki which goes into much more detail:

http://canonipf.wikispaces.com/



Does any of you have experience with the Canon printer? I'm very familiar with Epson printers so I know what I'm dealing with there, but the Canon printer is new for me. In particular I'm interested to know more about BW print quality on both matte and glossy papers compared to Epson. After all, that is what I will print most, and I simply don't trust reviewers who don't primarily shoot BW who says the printer makes very good BW prints.



How is gloss differential and bronzing? How is the dmax on various papers (both matte and glossy)?



If anyone would be willing to send me some sample prints from the Canon, or even print out a few of my own images for me I'd be happy to pay you for the trouble.



Thanks!





 

    
  

    
    


    
    
    
    


    


    
    
    
    
    


 





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

If you want to print both matte and glossy papers, the Canon is the better  
way to go.
I print with a 6100, which is the same machine as the 5100 only in 24", for 
 which there are excellent profiles available from Lou Dina on the Wiki 
Canon  site. I also have 2 4800s (MK & PK) and a 4880 (PK) for reference. 
With the Epsons, you will need 2 machines, one for matte, one for gloss.  
The 5100 prints interchangeably, MK and PK inks with 2 grays, just like the  
4800.
The quality comparison between the Canon and the Epson is about equal,  
although the Epson 2880 3.5pl dither is slightly superior and the dot is  
tighter.... not that you will see the difference in an image, without a loupe. 
The Canon Plug-in is great, allows toning of your B/W in PhotoShop before  
sending the image to the plug in, and produces really excellent B/W as well 
as  color prints. Each brand, of course, has it's strengths and weaknesses. 
The ABW  driver on the Epson is also excellent, with careful editing in 
Photoshop. 
The Canon is faster, the Epson inks are cheaper, particularly if you use  
3rd party equivalents like I do. There are no alternatives at present for  
Canon's factory 130ml ink carts @ $75. For me, the Epsons are less expensive 
to  run, because of the difference in ink costs, which helps let me afford 
the  Harman and Silver Rag papers I like. Gold Fiber is excellent on both 
printers as  well. I print on Arches Infinity, Han Photo Rag, Portfolio Rag, Han 
Wm Turner,  BC canvas, Epson canvas and Inkpress Baryta, among others, on 
both the Epsons  and the Canon machines, which produce equally saleable and 
attractive  prints.
I should add that for the best B/W, you can't match the Piezo K7 (matte  
papers) quality with either machine. I print Special Edition K7 on an Epson 
7600  and there IS a difference in print quality.
 
HTH
Rich
Visit my website at:
 
_www.rmassiephotography.com_ (http://www.rmassiephotography.com) 
**************An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy 
Steps! 
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222377077x1201454398/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=62&bcd=Jul
yExcfooterNO62)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Daniel,

 

I have a Canon iPF5100 that I have owned for 18 months.  I can tell you that
it is an excellent machine.  Like you, I made my decision because the
current Epson 4800 series at the time did not have matte/glossy ink
capability and I wanted a more robust machine than the Epson 3800.

 

I have found the machine to be very well-built and trouble-free so far.
Canon provides very good telephone support and updates firmware and drivers
continuously.

 

The ipf5100 has great image quality.  I would consider the color image
quality to be functionally equivalent to the Epson models.  I have printed
images on 3800's and 4800's owned by friends.  The very latest Epson printer
(11000 series, it think)  is supposed to have a new ink formulation that
improves gamut, etc. but I have no way of knowing when this will translate
into a 4800 series model.

 

For black & white, I strongly recommend that you get Joe Berndt's TrueBW RIP
made for the canon series.  This software is reasonably priced ($200) and
provides total Black Only control and linearization and terrific black &
white prints.  I have used it with Ilford Gold Fibre silk, several
Hannemuhle papers, Innova fibaprint, and others.  The B&W print quality with
this setup is as good as you can get without dedicating a printer to a full
BW inkset like Cone K7.  I still have an old Epson 1280 with cone K6 inks
and see a slight improvement in B&W quality with matte papers and this
setup.  I have not used the Cone glossy inks or workflow so can't comment.

 

The Canon print driver has the typical B&W "advanced" mode for color toning,
etc.  - I still greatly prefer the results I get with the TrueBW RIP setup.

 

The printing mechanism is solid as rock, the printer is very fast, it does
nozzle cleaning/alignment, etc automatically when needed.

 

I would be happy to make a couple of test prints for you to compare.  Please
contact me off list to coordinate..

 

Best Regards,

George

 

George C. Pappas

george@...

(703) 268-3196

  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
danielstaver
Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 8:31 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Canon IPF 5100 vs Epson 3800 vs Epson 4800

 






I'm going to upgrade to an A2 printer within a month or two, and I'm going
to get one of these three printers. Incredibly, I can get all three for
exactly the same price - A used 4800 in very good condition, a brand new
3800 or a brand new Canon IPF 5100 that's on a super promotion from a photo
store because they want to get rid of it.

Why would I even consider a 3800 when I can get a 4800 for the same price?
If it wasn't for the costly and time consuming black ink swap I'd just get
the 4800 now and not even consider anything else. I've printed on matte
papers for many years now, but recently I've really wanted to explore the
new fibre based glossy papers and possibly switch to that. But I see a
period of time coming where I will want to print on both just to experiment
so this is really a huge turn off when it comes to the 4800.

Another thing the 3800 seems to do better is handling small papers and
borderless printing on sheet papers. The 4800 and 5100 can only print
borderless on rolls and the smallest sheet size possible is 8x10 I think.
Neither is a very big deal for me, as this appears to be a limitation of all
big professional grade printers.

The Canon seems attractive. It's HUGE though. Even bigger than the 4800. I
think I can fit it in, and even got permission from my wife to put it in our
bedroom/office, so I'm not going to let that be a decisive factor. The
limited print head warranty is more worrying. It has about one year warranty
and is treated as a consumable. Buying new print heads (there's two of them)
will cost me around $1200, nearly doubling the price of the printer. With
the volume I print I expect the heads to last much longer than that, but
still...

Other than that I hear many good things about the Canon printer. It never
clogs, doesn't have microbanding problems, handles papers very well, has a
motorized roll feed, prints much faster than either of the Epsons, uses less
ink, and is self linearizing.

I've found the Canon wiki which goes into much more detail:
http://canonipf. <http://canonipf.wikispaces.com/> wikispaces.com/

Does any of you have experience with the Canon printer? I'm very familiar
with Epson printers so I know what I'm dealing with there, but the Canon
printer is new for me. In particular I'm interested to know more about BW
print quality on both matte and glossy papers compared to Epson. After all,
that is what I will print most, and I simply don't trust reviewers who don't
primarily shoot BW who says the printer makes very good BW prints.

How is gloss differential and bronzing? How is the dmax on various papers
(both matte and glossy)?

If anyone would be willing to send me some sample prints from the Canon, or
even print out a few of my own images for me I'd be happy to pay you for the
trouble.

Thanks!





__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature
database 4219 (20090705) __________

The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.

http://www.eset.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks for the replies so far! I guess I should mention a couple of things:

1. I'm planning to use OEM inks this time. I've mostly used third party inks in the past, but was hoping to avoid that now. I just want the most trouble free out of the box experience possible as I have a lot less time to experiment and babysit my printer now than I did in the past. I'm hoping the larger carts in the new printer will offset some of the cost of using original inks, even though I realize it will still be more expensive no matter what.

2. Gamut is not of great importance to me. I'm probably influenced by my BW printing, because when I do make color images they tend to be very low saturation. All modern pigment ink printers probably are more than capable of printing any color image to my satisfaction. I do want reasonably accurate out of the box profiles though. 

dmax on matte papers will be an important consideration though. I know 1.65 - 1.7 is possible with the right combination of ink and paper, and I would be disappointed if all I could get was 1.5. I'm wondering how Canon does in this regard.

I'm not as familiar with glossy papers, so I don't know what dmax to aim for here.

Thanks! I'll contact you off list for the prints.

I notice the TruwBW RIP is only available for mac, so I won't be able to use it unfortunately. Do you feel the BW quality would be inferior to ABW on the Epson printers without this rip?

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "danielstaver" <daniel@...> wrote:
>
  
> I notice the TruwBW RIP is only available for mac, so I won't be able to use it unfortunately. Do you feel the BW quality would be inferior to ABW on the Epson printers without this rip?
>
Daniel,

You can use QuadTone RIP (QTR) with the Epson printers and OEM inks for excellent results as an alternative to ABW. I have been pleased with the prints by both methods on the 3800.

Martin

I've worked extensively with QTR in the past. I can't use it without banding with my current 2400, but that's probably a print head problem and not QTR itself. If I go with either the 3800 or 4800, I'll definitely get back to QTR and start making some curves again.

> You can use QuadTone RIP (QTR) with the Epson printers and OEM inks for excellent results as an alternative to ABW. I have been pleased with the prints by both methods on the 3800.

Hi Daniel,

 

I do not feel that the standard Canon driver with its black & white mode
would be inferior to an Epson ABW workflow.  From what I have seen comparing
my Canon "ABW" prints to Epson ABW prints, they are the same.  However, the
TrueBW RIP provides higher quality in my experience and more control over
tonality.  I suspect it would be equivalent to using QTR with a black and
white profile on an Epson 3800 or 4800 series machine with OEM inks.

 

In this regard, it represents a level of BW quality beyond OEM Color inks
and standard print drivers yet somewhat below having a dedicated BW printer
with 7 shades of black/grey ink.  Please bear in mind that the differences
are subtle and a casual observer would look at all three kinds of prints and
judge them to be the same.

 

For your Dmax question - 1.6 is typical for my experience with matte papers.
With Glossy papers, I experience Dmax of 2.25 to 2.6.  The issue in my mind
is not Dmax, but how the tones scale up and down the range and how
faithfully the printer takes your file and makes this transition.

 

Regards,

George

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
danielstaver
Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 11:35 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Canon IPF 5100 vs Epson 3800 vs Epson 4800

 






Thanks! I'll contact you off list for the prints.

I notice the TruwBW RIP is only available for mac, so I won't be able to use
it unfortunately. Do you feel the BW quality would be inferior to ABW on the
Epson printers without this rip?





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Very helpful thread for me as I, too, am looking for a new printer in the 17-24" range. Three additional factors, though: 1) I'll be printing color as well as BW images on the same machine; 2) I tend to print furiously then lie fallow for a couple weeks; 3) my printing environment is typically of very low humidity (8,000 ft. elevation). 

From what I've read I'm leaning toward the Canon over the HP Z3200. Price is certainly one reason. But when looking at test prints from these two along with an Epson I gotta say the BW with the 5100 remains most neutral in changing light. A grain of salt the size of a bowling ball needs to be included, though, as I cannot be certain that the folks providing the test prints in each case and location did their best to optimize my gratis prints. 

Additional thoughts? 

Thanks, Phil

Hi Phil,

 

Your three factors don't rule out any of  the machines you are considering.
They do limit you to a workflow using color inks.  I have printed
intensively with the ifp5100 and then let it sit for a while without issue;
the printer performs automatic head cleaning, etc. and just works.

 

Your comments about print quality are right on.  Until you know the workflow
used and the print driver settings used, you can't make an accurate
assessment of what your color shifting issues are like.  The underlying
issue is whether or not color ink is being mixed in with black/grey ink when
a print is made.  Each manufacturer has its own "magic" in how they blend
color with black/grey inks for B&W printing using their print drivers.

 

Canon technical support has told me that the standard Canon Driver does not
use color ink for B&W prints when the monochrome option is selected unless
you start to move the "image tone" sliders off of neutral.   I am not sure
if this is true or not.

 

I found the TrueBW RIP for the Canon Printer to be a much better solution
for Black & White Printing.  It gives me much more control and
predictability in how the prints come out.  This RIP is only available for
the Mac.

 

Given your factors, the best B&W printing choice in my opinion would be use
QTR with a black-only profile on an Epson 3800/4800, TrueBW with a Canon ipf
series machine, or some other black-only software solution with the HP
machine.  Any of these would give you color prints with the "standard"
driver and maximum control over B&W printing.

 

Best Regards,

George

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of philh20
Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 11:11 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Canon IPF 5100 vs Epson 3800 vs Epson 4800

 






Very helpful thread for me as I, too, am looking for a new printer in the
17-24" range. Three additional factors, though: 1) I'll be printing color as
well as BW images on the same machine; 2) I tend to print furiously then lie
fallow for a couple weeks; 3) my printing environment is typically of very
low humidity (8,000 ft. elevation). 

From what I've read I'm leaning toward the Canon over the HP Z3200. Price is
certainly one reason. But when looking at test prints from these two along
with an Epson I gotta say the BW with the 5100 remains most neutral in
changing light. A grain of salt the size of a bowling ball needs to be
included, though, as I cannot be certain that the folks providing the test
prints in each case and location did their best to optimize my gratis
prints. 

Additional thoughts? 

Thanks, Phil





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Given your factors, the best B&W printing choice in my opinion would be use
> QTR with a black-only profile on an Epson 3800/4800, TrueBW with a Canon ipf
> series machine, or some other black-only software solution with the HP
> machine.  Any of these would give you color prints with the "standard"
> driver and maximum control over B&W printing.
> 
>  
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> George


What exists for HP's Z3100-Z3200 is the B&W mode in the normal driver. 
At the base 3 or 4 neutral monochrome inks, with gloss enhancer possible 
on satin and gloss papers. It is not a black only solution. The Z's 
driver B&W mode gives more neutral B&W prints just using the monochrome 
inks, linearity at all times in the tone range on the Z3100 with the 
integrated spectrometer calibrations and it allows the use of Quadtone 
generated ICC B&W profiles. For the last a separate spectro- or 
densitometer has to be used. Even the normal color mode of the driver 
produces excellent B&W prints that will use the same grey inks in 
preference. No problem to combine that B&W image with a color image next 
to it on the same print page. Qimage then as the application to print 
from and when needed separate profiles and/or rendering choices per 
image on that same print page


-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst


New: Dinkla Canvas Wrap Actions

|      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
|         www.pigment-print.com        |
|                 ( unvollendet )                 |

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "George Pappas" <george@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Phil,
> 
[snip]
> 
> Given your factors, the best B&W printing choice in my opinion would be use
> QTR with a black-only profile on an Epson 3800/4800, TrueBW with a Canon ipf
> series machine, or some other black-only software solution with the HP
> machine.  Any of these would give you color prints with the "standard"
> driver and maximum control over B&W printing.
> 
>  
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> George
> 

Thanks, George and Ernst. George, does the TrueBW RIP require a dedicted BW ink set or will it work with the default 12 Lucia inks? 

Regards, Phil

I've settled on the Epson 4800 and plan to buy it used once I'm back home from China in a week. It's owned by a friend of mine, and he isn't fully committed to selling it yet, but I'm hoping he reaches the right decision by the time I'm back in Norway. 

Thanks to everyone who offered to send test prints from the 5100. I decided against the Canon partially because the promotion that put it into the same price range as the 3800 ended and it's now 30% more expensive. Another reason is that I'm already very familiar with Epson printers, and enjoy the extensive third party support both in rips and inks. I plan to use the 4800 with OEM inks, but I like having options. I will definitely be using QTR a lot with the 4800.

The 3800 is attractive because of the easier swapping between black inks, but I want a robust professional grade printer, not a desktop printer in A2 size.

Hi Phil,

 

TrueBW works with the OEM Lucia Inks.  You can create a profile that uses
black-only inks or, if you like, make one that has some color blended in if
you would like color tone control.  You can determine which ink
colors/shades participate in each profile.

 

Regards,

George

 

George C. Pappas

george@...

(703) 268-3196

  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of philh20
Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 10:00 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Canon IPF 5100 vs Epson 3800 vs Epson 4800

 






--- In DigitalBlackandWhit
<mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>
eThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "George Pappas" <george@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Phil,
> 
[snip]
> 
> Given your factors, the best B&W printing choice in my opinion would be
use
> QTR with a black-only profile on an Epson 3800/4800, TrueBW with a Canon
ipf
> series machine, or some other black-only software solution with the HP
> machine. Any of these would give you color prints with the "standard"
> driver and maximum control over B&W printing.
> 
> 
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> George
> 

Thanks, George and Ernst. George, does the TrueBW RIP require a dedicted BW
ink set or will it work with the default 12 Lucia inks? 

Regards, Phil





__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature
database 4240 (20090713) __________

The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.

http://www.eset.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]