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Seeking printer and ink recommendation

Seeking printer and ink recommendation

2009-07-07 by Mike Acar

Hi,

I'd like to start doing digital B&W printing at home; my end goal is to 
make prints which are like traditional fiber B&W prints (not that I was
particularly good at it, but I really came to like the heft of Ilford 
FB). So I've done a bit of reading over the last couple of days, trying
to figure out the state-of-the-art - mostly on Paul Roark's site, but
also a bit on Eric Chan's and Clayton Jones's.

Paul's information is very thorough, but it's also over my head - for 
example I'm not sure what he means by "LK and PK density inks" in his
discussion of the 1400-NC2 inkset. So the first thing I would like is a 
to educate myself enough to ask intelligent questions, and so I'd like a
pointer to a current introduction that will help bring all the concepts
together. Is e.g.  http://www.cjcom.net/articles/digiprn2.htm still
relevant? Are there any better sources?

Thanks!

-- Mike

Re: Seeking printer and ink recommendation

2009-07-07 by Roger

Amadou Diallo's book on B&W printing is still current and gives you a useful conceptual framework to understand the issues- it's worth a read.

I think what you want to do depends on a few things- your tolerance to learn specialized software (QTR), desire to tone B&W inks, desire to print on both gloss-type and matte papers, maximum print size, size of willingness to blend your own inks, and willingness to manually refill ink cartridges and maintain your printer.

Give us your answers to the above and we can maybe guide you to an appropriate solution.  

Personally I'm happy with an R220 with MIS UT-R2 refillable carts (the modern equivalent would be the basic MIS Epson 1400 inkset).  I can print on glossy or matte, don't have to use QTR, can do basic toning with the Epson driver, can print 8x12 and it's cheap to run.

Roger



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Acar" <mike-theprint@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Hi,
> 
> I'd like to start doing digital B&W printing at home; my end goal is to 
> make prints which are like traditional fiber B&W prints (not that I was
> particularly good at it, but I really came to like the heft of Ilford 
> FB). So I've done a bit of reading over the last couple of days, trying
> to figure out the state-of-the-art - mostly on Paul Roark's site, but
> also a bit on Eric Chan's and Clayton Jones's.
> 
> Paul's information is very thorough, but it's also over my head - for 
> example I'm not sure what he means by "LK and PK density inks" in his
> discussion of the 1400-NC2 inkset. So the first thing I would like is a 
> to educate myself enough to ask intelligent questions, and so I'd like a
> pointer to a current introduction that will help bring all the concepts
> together. Is e.g.  http://www.cjcom.net/articles/digiprn2.htm still
> relevant? Are there any better sources?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> -- Mike
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Seeking printer and ink recommendation

2009-07-07 by mike-theprint@waspfactory.org

(urk, resend with right From)

Hi,

On Tue, Jul 07, 2009 at 03:23:16PM -0000, Roger wrote:
> Amadou Diallo's book on B&W printing is still current and gives you a
> useful conceptual framework to understand the issues- it's worth a
> read.

I've glanced through it in the past; looks like I should order a copy.
http://cjcom.net/articles/digiprn2.htm was also helpful (although the
last update seems to be about a year ago).

> I think what you want to do depends on a few things- your tolerance to
> learn specialized software (QTR),

I will if I must, but I'd prefer not to.

> desire to tone B&W inks,

I prefer neutral (or slightly toned) prints. As I understand it, some
ink and paper combinations have significant tones, which require toning
to counteract (potentially at the cost of lightfastness).

> desire to print on both gloss-type and matte papers,

I'm not particularly interested in high-gloss RC type papers; I like
Ilford FB glossy's surface, and so at the moment I'm most interested in
Harman FB AL. But I'm not wedded to it, and initially I'd like the
flexibility to experiment with different papers.

I expect eventually to settle on one or the other, so I'm ok with a
setup where switching from glossy to matte is clumsy or somewhat
expensive, as in the long term I don't expect to do it much.

I would like to avoid a setup where I have to run a print through
multiple times (e.g. to add a layer of gloss optimizer) or where I have
to spray the prints after printing.

> maximum print size,

From Epson's printer pricing, 13" wide seems reasonable.

> size of willingness to blend your own inks, and willingness to
> manually refill ink cartridges and maintain your printer.

I've never blended inks or refilled ink cartridges; blending sounds
finicky and messy, so as a novice I'd prefer to avoid that. Refilling
cartridges sounds like it's worth the effort.

It's likely that I'll be printing sporadically, and I'm willing to give
my printer reasonable care and feeding.

> Give us your answers to the above and we can maybe guide you to an
> appropriate solution.  
> 
> Personally I'm happy with an R220 with MIS UT-R2 refillable carts (the
> modern equivalent would be the basic MIS Epson 1400 inkset).  I can
> print on glossy or matte, don't have to use QTR, can do basic toning
> with the Epson driver, can print 8x12 and it's cheap to run.

Indeed, after my first round of reading it seemed like an R1400 seemed
the way to go. The I started reading Paul's PDFs and it all started
seeming potentially very involved....

-- 
  | Mike Acar |                                | mike at waspfactory dot org |

[Digital BW] Re: Seeking printer and ink recommendation

2009-07-07 by Roger

Based on your responses, for simplicity consider the Epson R2400, R2880 or R3800 in Advanced B&W mode.  

If printer and ink cost is a larger factor for you, the 1400 with the stock MIS inkset (forget the new fancy ones Paul is working on with HP ink and the like) looks like a great platform. The addition of gloss optimizer and lack of need to switch photo and matte black is a plus in my mind.  I haven't used this new system but am very happy with Harman FB Al prints done with my R220.

Roger


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, mike-theprint@... wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> (urk, resend with right From)
> 
> Hi,
> 
> On Tue, Jul 07, 2009 at 03:23:16PM -0000, Roger wrote:
> > Amadou Diallo's book on B&W printing is still current and gives you a
> > useful conceptual framework to understand the issues- it's worth a
> > read.
> 
> I've glanced through it in the past; looks like I should order a copy.
> http://cjcom.net/articles/digiprn2.htm was also helpful (although the
> last update seems to be about a year ago).
> 
> > I think what you want to do depends on a few things- your tolerance to
> > learn specialized software (QTR),
> 
> I will if I must, but I'd prefer not to.
> 
> > desire to tone B&W inks,
> 
> I prefer neutral (or slightly toned) prints. As I understand it, some
> ink and paper combinations have significant tones, which require toning
> to counteract (potentially at the cost of lightfastness).
> 
> > desire to print on both gloss-type and matte papers,
> 
> I'm not particularly interested in high-gloss RC type papers; I like
> Ilford FB glossy's surface, and so at the moment I'm most interested in
> Harman FB AL. But I'm not wedded to it, and initially I'd like the
> flexibility to experiment with different papers.
> 
> I expect eventually to settle on one or the other, so I'm ok with a
> setup where switching from glossy to matte is clumsy or somewhat
> expensive, as in the long term I don't expect to do it much.
> 
> I would like to avoid a setup where I have to run a print through
> multiple times (e.g. to add a layer of gloss optimizer) or where I have
> to spray the prints after printing.
> 
> > maximum print size,
> 
> From Epson's printer pricing, 13" wide seems reasonable.
> 
> > size of willingness to blend your own inks, and willingness to
> > manually refill ink cartridges and maintain your printer.
> 
> I've never blended inks or refilled ink cartridges; blending sounds
> finicky and messy, so as a novice I'd prefer to avoid that. Refilling
> cartridges sounds like it's worth the effort.
> 
> It's likely that I'll be printing sporadically, and I'm willing to give
> my printer reasonable care and feeding.
> 
> > Give us your answers to the above and we can maybe guide you to an
> > appropriate solution.  
> > 
> > Personally I'm happy with an R220 with MIS UT-R2 refillable carts (the
> > modern equivalent would be the basic MIS Epson 1400 inkset).  I can
> > print on glossy or matte, don't have to use QTR, can do basic toning
> > with the Epson driver, can print 8x12 and it's cheap to run.
> 
> Indeed, after my first round of reading it seemed like an R1400 seemed
> the way to go. The I started reading Paul's PDFs and it all started
> seeming potentially very involved....
> 
> -- 
>   | Mike Acar |                                | mike at waspfactory dot org |
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Seeking printer and ink recommendation

2009-07-08 by mike-theprint@waspfactory.org

On Tue, Jul 07, 2009 at 11:31:20PM -0000, Roger wrote:
> Based on your responses, for simplicity consider the Epson R2400,
> R2880 or R3800 in Advanced B&W mode.  

Indeed, that's starting to look attractive.

> If printer and ink cost is a larger factor for you,

Offhand it looks like MIS is far cheaper per unit volume of ink, but I
need to work out the upfront and continuing costs - as one poster on
rangefinderforum pointed out, software, UT-14, and the refill kit etc.
add up to a couple hundred bucks, and then there's the additional time
spent to learn and integrate it all... With all that it might be a LONG
time before the price advantage kicks in.

> the 1400 with the stock MIS inkset (forget the new fancy ones Paul is
> working on with HP ink and the like) looks like a great platform.

I assume that by "stock" you mean UT-14.

> The addition of gloss optimizer and lack of need to switch photo and
> matte black is a plus in my mind.  I haven't used this new system but
> am very happy with Harman FB Al prints done with my R220.

Yeah, UT-R2 includes a non-Eboni photo black, giving it an advantage
over UT-14 on glossy papers. Paul writes

	[UT-14] prints on glossy paper with its midtone, MIS UT type
	glossy- compatible inks. [...] As such, a Photoshop curve, ICC,
	or QTR must be used to print glossy prints.

Looks like I should finish Diallo's book before I make any purchases...

-- 
  | Mike Acar |                                | mike at waspfactory dot org |

[Digital BW] Re: Seeking printer and ink recommendation

2009-07-08 by Roger

In my experience one set of carts for my Epson is close to $100, so 2 refills later you're ahead with MIS if you buy the refillable carts and do it yourself.  If you're using the Epson driver there is no software cost.

I recommend the ICC approach using Paul's ICCs with the inkset and that should help you use glossy papers with UT-14.

Roger



 In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, mike-theprint@... wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> On Tue, Jul 07, 2009 at 11:31:20PM -0000, Roger wrote:
> > Based on your responses, for simplicity consider the Epson R2400,
> > R2880 or R3800 in Advanced B&W mode.  
> 
> Indeed, that's starting to look attractive.
> 
> > If printer and ink cost is a larger factor for you,
> 
> Offhand it looks like MIS is far cheaper per unit volume of ink, but I
> need to work out the upfront and continuing costs - as one poster on
> rangefinderforum pointed out, software, UT-14, and the refill kit etc.
> add up to a couple hundred bucks, and then there's the additional time
> spent to learn and integrate it all... With all that it might be a LONG
> time before the price advantage kicks in.
> 
> > the 1400 with the stock MIS inkset (forget the new fancy ones Paul is
> > working on with HP ink and the like) looks like a great platform.
> 
> I assume that by "stock" you mean UT-14.
> 
> > The addition of gloss optimizer and lack of need to switch photo and
> > matte black is a plus in my mind.  I haven't used this new system but
> > am very happy with Harman FB Al prints done with my R220.
> 
> Yeah, UT-R2 includes a non-Eboni photo black, giving it an advantage
> over UT-14 on glossy papers. Paul writes
> 
> 	[UT-14] prints on glossy paper with its midtone, MIS UT type
> 	glossy- compatible inks. [...] As such, a Photoshop curve, ICC,
> 	or QTR must be used to print glossy prints.
> 
> Looks like I should finish Diallo's book before I make any purchases...
> 
> -- 
>   | Mike Acar |                                | mike at waspfactory dot org |
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Seeking printer and ink recommendation

2009-07-09 by mike-theprint@waspfactory.org

On Wed, Jul 08, 2009 at 06:31:11PM -0000, Roger wrote:
> In my experience one set of carts for my Epson is close to $100, so 2
> refills later you're ahead with MIS if you buy the refillable carts
> and do it yourself.  If you're using the Epson driver there is no
> software cost.

So I went ahead and pulled the trigger on a refurbished 1400 - $180 plus
tax. Now to order some UT-14...

> I recommend the ICC approach using Paul's ICCs with the inkset and
> that should help you use glossy papers with UT-14.

I think my first steps will be with a few matte papers, getting a sense
of different toning options and looks. Then I'll move into this when I'm
more familiar.

Thanks a lot for your help :)

-- 
  | Mike Acar |                                | mike at waspfactory dot org |

Re: Seeking printer and ink recommendation

2009-07-09 by Richard King

I don't want to get into all of the technical stuff around B&W  
printing.  I am extremely happy with my inksets from Jon Cone.  They  
really work straight out of the box.  He use QTR to deliver the  
profiles, but you NEVER need to change anything or know anything about  
QTR.

I have been using the Selenium K7s but am in the process of switching  
to the Special Edition inks - the results are absolutely gorgeous!

Richard

visit www.richardkingphoto.com now to collect fine art photographic  
prints.

[Digital BW] Re: Seeking printer and ink recommendation

2009-07-09 by Roger

Sounds good.  Just follow Paul Roark's instructions exactly and you'll be fine.

Have fun!

Roger

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, mike-theprint@... wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> On Wed, Jul 08, 2009 at 06:31:11PM -0000, Roger wrote:
> > In my experience one set of carts for my Epson is close to $100, so 2
> > refills later you're ahead with MIS if you buy the refillable carts
> > and do it yourself.  If you're using the Epson driver there is no
> > software cost.
> 
> So I went ahead and pulled the trigger on a refurbished 1400 - $180 plus
> tax. Now to order some UT-14...
> 
> > I recommend the ICC approach using Paul's ICCs with the inkset and
> > that should help you use glossy papers with UT-14.
> 
> I think my first steps will be with a few matte papers, getting a sense
> of different toning options and looks. Then I'll move into this when I'm
> more familiar.
> 
> Thanks a lot for your help :)
> 
> -- 
>   | Mike Acar |                                | mike at waspfactory dot org |
>

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