Digital BW, The Print

Hi folks,

I'm getting very dark, oversaturated prints on a refurbished Epson
Stylus Photo 1400 (purchased directly from Epson). I'm using color
management (details below), and I'm trying to figure out what's going
wrong. For example, I printed Paul Roark's 21-Step_GG22_L5.tif (from
http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/Test-files.htm), with color management,
and the 100% to 75% swatches are all completely black -
indistinguishable from each other. I'd expect some variation given that
I'm not using a custom profile, but this seems excessive.

Normal documents printed on office paper look fine. I wonder if there's
a problem with the printer's photo modes - I've tried making two prints
in Photo RPM mode, and both have left big blotches of wet ink on the
paper.

So I have a couple of questions:

1) Is it possible that there's a problem with Photo or Photo RPM print
modes, but not with Economy/Normal/Fine?

2) Is it plausible that normal variation can account for the radical
difference between Paul's profile and my printer?

3) There have been a number of rumors of double-profiling; how can I
figure out if that's what's happening?

Here are the details of my color management process:

For color, Epson Ultra Premium Photo Paper Glossy, Epson OEM ink
(shipped with the printer), Epson's "SP1400 1410 UPGP" profile
(installed with their driver).

For black and white, Epson Ultra Premium Photo Paper Glossy, MIS UT-14
inks, and Paul Roark's 1400-UT14-UltraPremGlossPP-N-1-rgb.icc profile.

Initially I thought I'd use up the Epson inks and then switch to the
UT-14 ones, but the color results were so poor that I gave up and
switched early. I'm using the Epson paper mostly out of convenience -
Best Buy had it and I knew profiles were available for it.

I'm following the directions in Paul's UT-14 paper: Photoshop manages
color, with the UltraPremGlossPP profile selected. Rendering intent is
Perceptual. Black point compensation is checked. In the Epson dialog,
media type is "Ultra Premium Presentation Matte", Color is, er, Color,
print quality is set to Photo. Color management is set to off.

I'm on a Mac Pro running Mac OS X 10.5.7, Photoshop CS3, and Lightroom
2.4. The Epson printer driver reports version 6.10. I have two Viewsonic
LCD screens; both are calibrated with an Eye-One Display 2 and Eye-One
Match 3. They're calibrated to temperature 6500, gamma 2.2, and 100
cd/m2 luminance.

Let me know if you need any other information.

Thanks!

-- 
  | Mike Acar |                                | mike at waspfactory dot org |

mike-theprint@... wrote:
>
> 
> Hi folks,
> 
> I'm getting very dark, oversaturated prints on a refurbished Epson
> Stylus Photo 1400 (purchased directly from Epson). I'm using color
> management (details below), and I'm trying to figure out what's going
> wrong. For example, I printed Paul Roark's 21-Step_GG22_L5.tif (from
> http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/Test-files.htm),

The test strip I use most often today is at 
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/21-Step.jpg
Save it as a Tiff.

> with color management,
> and the 100% to 75% swatches are all completely black -
> indistinguishable from each other. 

> I'd expect some variation given that
> I'm not using a custom profile, but this seems excessive.
> 
> Normal documents printed on office paper look fine. 
> I wonder if there's a problem with the printer's photo modes 
>- I've tried making two prints in Photo RPM mode, and both have 
> left big blotches of wet ink on the paper.

That doesn't sound normal.

> So I have a couple of questions:
> 
> 1) Is it possible that there's a problem with Photo or 
> Photo RPM print modes, but not with Economy/Normal/Fine?

The Epson driver usually sets an ink limit that is low enough that you will not have blotches of wet ink.  Perhaps it could also be a driver problem.  You might want to download and re-install the latest one and see if that makes a difference.

> 2) Is it plausible that normal variation can account for the 
> radical difference between Paul's profile and my printer?

I doubt it.  

Note that my PDF at http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/UT14.pdf was written up based on using a Windows platform.  

> 3) There have been a number of rumors of double-profiling; 
> how can I figure out if that's what's happening?
> 
> Here are the details of my color management process:
> 
> For color, Epson Ultra Premium Photo Paper Glossy, Epson OEM ink
> (shipped with the printer), Epson's "SP1400 1410 UPGP" profile
> (installed with their driver).
> 
> For black and white, Epson Ultra Premium Photo Paper Glossy, 
> MIS UT-14 inks, and Paul Roark's 
> 1400-UT14-UltraPremGlossPP-N-1-rgb.icc profile.

Be sure the driver settings are as specified in the PDF, p. 7.

...
> I'm following the directions in Paul's UT-14 paper: 
> Photoshop manages color, with the UltraPremGlossPP 
> profile selected. Rendering intent is
> Perceptual. Black point compensation is checked. 
> In the Epson dialog,
> media type is "Ultra Premium Presentation Matte", 
> Color is, er, Color,

(Not sure what that is.)

> print quality is set to Photo. 

I use Photo RPM.


> Color management is set to off.

In my driver I check "ICM" first, then "Off (No Color Adjustment)"

> I'm on a Mac Pro running Mac OS X 10.5.7, Photoshop CS3, 
> and Lightroom 2.4.

There could be some variations from my Windows, Photoshop starting point.

> The Epson printer driver reports version 6.10. 

That's the same version I have.

You might try printing http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Purge6.jpg  (or just a 1" length of it) and see if the inks appear to be as described in the PDF.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Hi Mike,

Why are you using Epson Ultra Premium Photo Paper Glossy and a UPGP profile, but specifying a media setting of Ultra Premium Presentation Matte?  

That might be the source of your problems.

Ellen

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, mike-theprint@... wrote:

>
> 
> Hi folks,
> 
> I'm getting very dark, oversaturated prints on a refurbished Epson
> Stylus Photo 1400 (purchased directly from Epson). I'm using color
> management (details below), and I'm trying to figure out what's going
> wrong. 
> 
> Here are the details of my color management process:
> 
> For color, Epson Ultra Premium Photo Paper Glossy, Epson OEM ink
> (shipped with the printer), Epson's "SP1400 1410 UPGP" profile
> (installed with their driver).
> 
> For black and white, Epson Ultra Premium Photo Paper Glossy, MIS UT-14
> inks, and Paul Roark's 1400-UT14-UltraPremGlossPP-N-1-rgb.icc profile.
> 
> Initially I thought I'd use up the Epson inks and then switch to the
> UT-14 ones, but the color results were so poor that I gave up and
> switched early. I'm using the Epson paper mostly out of convenience -
> Best Buy had it and I knew profiles were available for it.
> 
> I'm following the directions in Paul's UT-14 paper: Photoshop manages
> color, with the UltraPremGlossPP profile selected. Rendering intent is
> Perceptual. Black point compensation is checked. In the Epson dialog,
> media type is "Ultra Premium Presentation Matte", Color is, er, Color,

> 
> Thanks!
> 
> -- 
>   | Mike Acar |                                | mike at waspfactory dot org |
>

Hi Paul,

On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 03:29:46PM -0000, pr_roark wrote:

> The test strip I use most often today is at 
> http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/21-Step.jpg
> Save it as a Tiff.

Ok, I'll have a look.

> > Normal documents printed on office paper look fine. 
> > I wonder if there's a problem with the printer's photo modes 
> >- I've tried making two prints in Photo RPM mode, and both have 
> > left big blotches of wet ink on the paper.
> 
> That doesn't sound normal.

I suspected not, but I wasn't sure which papers "Photo RPM" is
appropriate for - Epson's docs just say "use it on certain papers". Not
*which* papers. Thanks Epson!

> > So I have a couple of questions:
> > 
> > 1) Is it possible that there's a problem with Photo or 
> > Photo RPM print modes, but not with Economy/Normal/Fine?
> 
> The Epson driver usually sets an ink limit that is low enough that you
> will not have blotches of wet ink.  Perhaps it could also be a driver
> problem.  You might want to download and re-install the latest one and
> see if that makes a difference.

I've been through a few rounds of removal and reinstallation with that
driver, and the process hasn't given me much confidence in their
installer for OS X. I do have a PC, so I can try the printer there with
a clean install of the driver.

On my way to work this morning it occurred to me that trying QuadTone
RIP on my Mac instead of the Epson driver might help isolate the problem
to the printer or the driver. Any thoughts on that?

And, looking back through some of my test prints, I *do* have one
reasonable print of one of Bill Atkinson's test images. So it seems
unlikely that it's the printer itself.

> > 2) Is it plausible that normal variation can account for the 
> > radical difference between Paul's profile and my printer?
> 
> I doubt it.  

Thought not.

> > 3) There have been a number of rumors of double-profiling; 

> Be sure the driver settings are as specified in the PDF, p. 7.

*nod*

> > I'm following the directions in Paul's UT-14 paper: 
> > Photoshop manages color, with the UltraPremGlossPP 
> > profile selected. Rendering intent is
> > Perceptual. Black point compensation is checked. 
> > In the Epson dialog,
> > media type is "Ultra Premium Presentation Matte", 
> > Color is, er, Color,
> 
> (Not sure what that is.)

That's the drop-down to select Color or Grayscale.

> > Color management is set to off.
> 
> In my driver I check "ICM" first, then "Off (No Color Adjustment)"

Interesting. From the screenshot in UT14.pdf, it looks like the Windows
driver itself supports ICM - so you could work on a file in PS, print it
without color management, then load a profile and select an intent in
the Epson driver itself. I can double check when I get home, but I'm
pretty sure that the OS X driver doesn't have that functionality; you
can select "Off (No Color Adjustment)" or "Color Controls" (which look
the same as what you suggest for matte papers). If you pick "Off", the
driver summary screen shows that color is managed via ColorSync (MacOS's
API).

> > I'm on a Mac Pro running Mac OS X 10.5.7, Photoshop CS3, 
> > and Lightroom 2.4.
> 
> There could be some variations from my Windows, Photoshop starting point.

Yeah. I *think* my settings are analogous to yours, but I'm not an
expert, so.

> > The Epson printer driver reports version 6.10. 
> 
> That's the same version I have.
> 
> You might try printing http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Purge6.jpg
> (or just a 1" length of it) and see if the inks appear to be as
> described in the PDF.

Hm, I just reviewed the PDF and didn't see a description of a purge
pattern or how the inks should appear. Did I miss something?

Thanks :)

-- 
  | Mike Acar |                                | mike at waspfactory dot org |

Hi Ellen,

On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 05:19:31PM -0000, erutchick2002 wrote:
> Why are you using Epson Ultra Premium Photo Paper Glossy and a UPGP
> profile, but specifying a media setting of Ultra Premium Presentation
> Matte?  

That's Paul's recommendation for UT14 inks on glossy paper. When I used
the Epson inks, I was using "Ultra Premium Photo Paper Glossy" media
type. Both are too dark - so I don't think that's it, unfortunately.
Would it were so simple :(

-- 
  | Mike Acar |                                | mike at waspfactory dot org |

mike-theprint@... wrote:
>
> ...
> 
> I wasn't sure which papers "Photo RPM" is
> appropriate for - Epson's docs just say "use it on certain papers". 

On some papers that you can choose in the Epson driver it's not an option.  It generally does give the highest quality, however.  So, it's the one I select for most of what I do.


> On my way to work this morning it occurred to me that 
> trying QuadTone RIP on my Mac instead of the Epson driver 
> might help isolate the problem
> to the printer or the driver. Any thoughts on that?

I'm not sure what else QTR would show.  I don't have QTR profiles for the UT14 inkset, but some people on the QTR forum might.

>  I *do* have one
> reasonable print of one of Bill Atkinson's test images. So it seems
> unlikely that it's the printer itself.

I'll be curious if the PC prints look different when you get a chance to try that.


> 
> > > Color management is set to off.
> > 
> > In my driver I check "ICM" first, then "Off (No Color Adjustment)"

> Interesting. From the screenshot in UT14.pdf, it looks like 
> the Windows driver itself supports ICM ...

It does not pull up QTR ICCs, as far as I know.


>... you can select "Off (No Color Adjustment)" or "Color Controls" 
> the same as what you suggest for matte papers). 
> If you pick "Off", the driver summary screen shows that 
> color is managed via ColorSync (MacOS's API).
 
> > You might try printing http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Purge6.jpg
> > (or just a 1" length of it) and see if the inks appear to be as
> > described in the PDF.
> 
> Hm, I just reviewed the PDF and didn't see a description of a purge
> pattern or how the inks should appear.

You'd just have to go by the relative densities to see if the C and M are lighter than the K.  If now, that would wipe out your shadows.  But the pooling of ink is a different matter.


Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 06:36:20PM -0000, pr_roark wrote:

> > On my way to work this morning it occurred to me that 
> > trying QuadTone RIP on my Mac instead of the Epson driver 
> > might help isolate the problem
> > to the printer or the driver. Any thoughts on that?
> 
> I'm not sure what else QTR would show.  I don't have QTR profiles for
> the UT14 inkset, but some people on the QTR forum might.

Oh, right. Without them it wouldn't be very useful.

> I'll be curious if the PC prints look different when you get a chance
> to try that.

Me too.

> > Hm, I just reviewed the PDF and didn't see a description of a purge
> > pattern or how the inks should appear.
> 
> You'd just have to go by the relative densities to see if the C and M
> are lighter than the K.  If now, that would wipe out your shadows.

Ah, I see.

> But the pooling of ink is a different matter.

Yeah. That's evidence something significant is wrong.

Thanks for the help. I'll let you guys know what happens.

-- 
  | Mike Acar |                                | mike at waspfactory dot org |

Hello folks,

On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 06:36:20PM -0000, pr_roark wrote:
>  mike-theprint@... wrote:

> >  I *do* have one reasonable print of one of Bill Atkinson's test
> >  images. So it seems unlikely that it's the printer itself.
> 
> I'll be curious if the PC prints look different when you get a chance
> to try that.

So, I installed the Epson inks, and installed the printer on my PC. I
was careful to follow the driver install instructions (i.e. don't plug
in the printer until the installer tells you). Then I printed a test
image following Epson's advice in
http://files.support.epson.com/pdf/pho140/pho140mc.pdf .

There's no difference in the result - with quality "Photo", the print is
oversaturated; with "Photo RPM" there were beads of wet ink on the paper
when it came out of the printer.

> > Hm, I just reviewed the PDF and didn't see a description of a purge
> > pattern or how the inks should appear.
> 
> You'd just have to go by the relative densities to see if the C and M
> are lighter than the K.  If now, that would wipe out your shadows.

They are. From lightest to darkest: Y, Lc, C, Lm, M, K.

> But the pooling of ink is a different matter.

Ayup. Guess I'll have a talk with Epson.

-- 
  | Mike Acar |                                | mike at waspfactory dot org |