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Have you had this experience?

Have you had this experience?

2010-02-06 by David Kachel

I am curious if others have had the same experience I have had printing B&W digitally...

I started making the transition from analog to digital a year and a half ago (had I known, I would have started by first taking up drinking!) and feel as though I have just recently started getting a more or less firm grip.

I print color only very occasionally but when I do my calibrated monitor and printer don't seem to have much trouble giving me a first print that is reasonably in the ball park. But with B&W I find that though print color is usually within a single point of correct, contrast and density (brightness if you prefer) don't look right in the print unless they look way over the top on the monitor. This isn't really a problem. I understand the transmittance/reflectance dichotomy and have simply adapted to the difference in my workflow. But I would like to know if others have seen the same thing printing B&W as compared to color.

I presume the difference is due to the fact that color as we all know, hides a lot of sins and color printers aren't paying attention to density and contrast as much as B&W photographers.

David Kachel

Re: [Digital BW] Have you had this experience?

2010-02-06 by Cdtobie

B&W is more demanding, in that one can't judge neutrality effectively  
with color in the viewing area, and one does not focus on gray  
gradients and linearity with color involved.

But a calibrated display, correct display brightness, appropriate  
viewing light, and a B&W savvy printer profile should produce  
reasonable matches for density, contrast, whatever you care to call  
the elements of B&W.

Many on this list will argue the details of best neutrality, best  
linearity, most levels of gray, best longevity etc... But I believe  
most will agree that a good general match should be achieved through  
appropriate ICC process.

If you are not getting that, then there is probably some element in  
your process that is not optimal.

C. D. Tobie
Global Product Technology Mngr.
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
Datacolor.com
CDTobie@...
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Feb 5, 2010, at 11:35 PM, David Kachel <david@...> wrote:

> I am curious if others have had the same experience I have had  
> printing B&W digitally...
>
> I started making the transition from analog to digital a year and a  
> half ago (had I known, I would have started by first taking up  
> drinking!) and feel as though I have just recently started getting a  
> more or less firm grip.
>
> I print color only very occasionally but when I do my calibrated  
> monitor and printer don't seem to have much trouble giving me a  
> first print that is reasonably in the ball park. But with B&W I find  
> that though print color is usually within a single point of correct,  
> contrast and density (brightness if you prefer) don't look right in  
> the print unless they look way over the top on the monitor. This  
> isn't really a problem. I understand the transmittance/reflectance  
> dichotomy and have simply adapted to the difference in my workflow.  
> But I would like to know if others have seen the same thing printing  
> B&W as compared to color.
>
> I presume the difference is due to the fact that color as we all  
> know, hides a lot of sins and color printers aren't paying attention  
> to density and contrast as much as B&W photographers.
>
> David Kachel
>
>
>
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Re: [Digital BW] Have you had this experience?

2010-02-06 by David Kachel

On Feb 5, 2010, at 11:38 PM, Cdtobie wrote:

>  ...and a B&W savvy printer profile should produce 
> reasonable matches for density, contrast, whatever you care to call 
> the elements of B&W.

I am currently using a  B9180. If there are any "B&W savvy printer profiles" for this printer I am unaware of them. I would appreciate a heads-up.


David Kachel



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Have you had this experience?

2010-02-06 by ClaytonJ

Hello David,

>I started making the transition from analog to digital a year and a half ago (had I known, I would have started by first taking up drinking!) 

And you are entering at an advanced stage of the game (dare I say the golden age?).  It was _much_ worse some years ago.  Back then drinking wouldn't have been enough, good psychological counseling was often required <g>.  Lots of people quit out of frustration and despair.


>...with B&W I find that...contrast and density...don't look right in the print unless they look way over the top on the monitor. 

Depending on the workflow and level of technical wizardry at which you choose to work (calibrating, linearizing, profiles, etc), various settings can be made to achieve good WYSIWYG (What You see Is What You Get).  To get a specific answer from someone you'll need to provide details on how you're working.  


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
I-Trak 2.1   http://www.cjcom.net/itrak.htm

Re: [Digital BW] Have you had this experience?

2010-02-06 by Paul Grant

David

Are you printing RGB or Greyscale.   Are you using ABW.    Do soft  
proof with the correct profile.

Paul

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 5, 2010, at 8:35 PM, David Kachel <david@...> wrote:

> I am curious if others have had the same experience I have had  
> printing B&W digitally...
>
> I started making the transition from analog to digital a year and a  
> half ago (had I known, I would have started by first taking up  
> drinking!) and feel as though I have just recently started getting a  
> more or less firm grip.
>
> I print color only very occasionally but when I do my calibrated  
> monitor and printer don't seem to have much trouble giving me a  
> first print that is reasonably in the ball park. But with B&W I find  
> that though print color is usually within a single point of correct,  
> contrast and density (brightness if you prefer) don't look right in  
> the print unless they look way over the top on the monitor. This  
> isn't really a problem. I understand the transmittance/reflectance  
> dichotomy and have simply adapted to the difference in my workflow.  
> But I would like to know if others have seen the same thing printing  
> B&W as compared to color.
>
> I presume the difference is due to the fact that color as we all  
> know, hides a lot of sins and color printers aren't paying attention  
> to density and contrast as much as B&W photographers.
>
> David Kachel
>
> 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Have you had this experience?

2010-02-06 by Tony Sleep

On 06/02/2010 David Kachel wrote:
> But with B&W I find that though print color is usually within a 
> single point of correct, contrast and density (brightness if you 
> prefer) don't look right in the print unless they look way over the 
> top on the monitor.

Two thoughts:

I think it's a common experience that mono images render a little flatter 
on paper than they appear on screen. This is especially the case if the 
black point is not sufficiently clipped to give a decent amount of L0. 
Monitors obscure the difference, compressing the very darkest tones so 
that they appear pretty much black, even with calibration.

I think this divergence is much more pronounced with LCD's, which are 
usually so bright and contrasty that profiling still leaves a gulf between 
screen and print. It is difficult or impossible to restrain many to the 
~100 Cd/m necessary, and glossy screens are hopeless. Even proof preview 
using the paper profile and 'paper colour' selected then isn't very accurate.

Personally I'm still using a 2004 Sony G420 CRT for imaging because I 
simply cannot afford a 1000GBP Lacie, NEC or Eizo LCD. I also work in a 
room without daylight, so I can control ambient light - it is my old wet 
darkroom so I still have the window shutters. I see colleagues using Dell, 
Apple Cinema LCD's etc, and they look fantastic and impressive. But in 
too-bright rooms, and with the intense rendition they give, they are much 
further away from print.

-- 
Regards

Tony Sleep
http://tonysleep.co.uk

Re: [Digital BW] Have you had this experience?

2010-02-06 by CorrPro96@aol.com

Hi David:
 
Which monitor are you using and how did you calibrate it? 
 
I switched from a Artisan -type CRT to an LCD and had the experience you  
describe... and then some. The CRT is still in the basement and I have been  
tempted to go back to it, early on.
 
What I was able to do, after repeated calibrations with 3 different devices 
 and software, was to get the brightness down to a level that enabled my 
workflow  to match up. At one point, I thought of putting a neutral density 
screen over  the LCD.
 
Give us your calibration info and maybe we can help you.
 
Rich
_www.rmassiephotography.com_ (http://www.rmassiephotography.com) 
 
 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Have you had this experience?

2010-02-06 by E.Neilsen

David K, 

 

Color printing can, perhaps, mask the deficits in your workflow to a
heightened degree over B&W but without providing your current workflow in a
more exacting way, we are all using our considerable to guess the path you
take. Give it all to us; equipment, software with version, current OS and
viewing, papers, inks, etc. Also include what reference point from the
darkroom you bring with you. Visual sample from your web site, if you have
one, as a link are ok too.    Why, well it all adds to make your profile.
The better we know the workflow, the better our ability to offer
suggestions. There will be no hot lights shining on you, no buckets of
water, or dark spaces. If you're just coming at this digital printing stuff
I hope you enjoy the ride. 

 

"To get a specific answer from someone you'll need to provide details on how
you're working. 

Regards,
Clayton"

 

 

 

 

 

Eric Neilsen

Eric Neilsen Photography

4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

 

www.ericneilsenphotography.com

skype me with ejprinter

 

  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ClaytonJ
Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 11:57 PM





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Have you had this experience?

2010-02-06 by Cdtobie

>>I am currently using a  B9180. If there are any "B&W savvy printer  
profiles" for this printer I am unaware of them. I would appreciate a  
heads-up.

You would have to build your own. I believe you said you had a  
Datacolor spectro, so you should be in a position to build profiles  
including the extended grays. That won't magically solve the "only one  
gray ink" issue that model has, but combined with the other factors I  
noted it should produce reasonable matching.

However, from your other posts, a "B&W through a color ICC workflow"  
process does not seem to be your goal, so I dont know how much time  
you want to spend on that workflow, or that printer model.

C. D. Tobie
Global Product Technology Mngr.
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
Datacolor.com
CDTobie@...

On Feb 6, 2010, at 12:45 AM, David Kachel <david@...> wrote:

> I am currently using a  B9180. If there are any "B&W savvy printer  
> profiles" for this printer I am unaware of them. I would appreciate  
> a heads-up.
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Have you had this experience?

2010-02-07 by richardeskin

I had the same problem with my Dell 2280 Flat Panel Ultrasharp. With the i1 Display calibration tool from x-rite, in Advanced mode, I was able to calibrate the luminosity down to 80 rather than the recommended 120. On the monitor brightness menu this was only about 18 on a scale to 100, but it creates a much closer match between the monitor and the print, although for all other purposes, the monitor seems relatively dim.  It is my understanding that not all monitor calibration tools allow you to adjust the luminosity to a consistent and specified level.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Tony Sleep <TonySleep@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> On 06/02/2010 David Kachel wrote:
> > But with B&W I find that though print color is usually within a 
> > single point of correct, contrast and density (brightness if you 
> > prefer) don't look right in the print unless they look way over the 
> > top on the monitor.
> 
> Two thoughts:
> 
> I think it's a common experience that mono images render a little flatter 
> on paper than they appear on screen. This is especially the case if the 
> black point is not sufficiently clipped to give a decent amount of L0. 
> Monitors obscure the difference, compressing the very darkest tones so 
> that they appear pretty much black, even with calibration.
> 
> I think this divergence is much more pronounced with LCD's, which are 
> usually so bright and contrasty that profiling still leaves a gulf between 
> screen and print. It is difficult or impossible to restrain many to the 
> ~100 Cd/m necessary, and glossy screens are hopeless. Even proof preview 
> using the paper profile and 'paper colour' selected then isn't very accurate.
> 
> Personally I'm still using a 2004 Sony G420 CRT for imaging because I 
> simply cannot afford a 1000GBP Lacie, NEC or Eizo LCD. I also work in a 
> room without daylight, so I can control ambient light - it is my old wet 
> darkroom so I still have the window shutters. I see colleagues using Dell, 
> Apple Cinema LCD's etc, and they look fantastic and impressive. But in 
> too-bright rooms, and with the intense rendition they give, they are much 
> further away from print.
> 
> -- 
> Regards
> 
> Tony Sleep
> http://tonysleep.co.uk
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Have you had this experience?

2010-02-07 by Cdtobie

>> It is my understanding that not all monitor calibration tools  
allow you to adjust the luminosity to a consistent and specified level.

There are tools that do not have white luminance target controls, but  
the top products from the major companies allow for that.

Another issue is dimming displays below what their backlight controls  
will allow. That's rather a compromise, but is probably the best way  
to deal with it on such displays (short of getting a better display).  
So we plan a function for that in the Spyder3 products shortly.

C. D. Tobie
Global Product Technology Mngr.
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
Datacolor.com
CDTobie@...

On Feb 7, 2010, at 11:53 AM, "richardeskin"  
<richeskinphoto@...> wrote:

>  It is my understanding that not all monitor calibration tools allow  
> you to adjust the luminosity to a consistent and specified level.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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