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2010-03-01 by David Kachel
It is my understanding that there are really only two contenders remaining for 100% carbon sepia inks. I was going to buy the Cone inks but the $100 price jump made me jump so I am taking another look. Of the existing 100% carbon sepia ink sets available, which is the most sepia toned? David Kachel
2010-03-01 by C D Tobie
On Mar 1, 2010, at 2:30 PM, David Kachel wrote: > Of the existing 100% carbon sepia ink sets available, which is the > most sepia toned? I would have to say none... in that 100 percent carbon ink does not really run to a sepia tone, just a carbon tone, which is much subtler. C. David Tobie Global Product Technology Manager Digital Imaging & Home Theater CDTobie@... ---------- Datacolor www.datacolor.com/Spyder3 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2010-03-01 by David Kachel
On Mar 1, 2010, at 1:30 PM, David Kachel wrote: > It is my understanding that there are really only two contenders remaining for 100% carbon sepia inks. > I was going to buy the Cone inks but the $100 price jump made me jump so I am taking another look. > > I just got off the phone with MIS. Apparently their ink sets are out of the question with the Espon 3800? They tell me there are no cartridges that work properly with the 3800? Then how come the Cone system seems to be OK? Or is it? What experiences have others had with aftermarket empty cartridge systems for the 3800? Am I stuck with a single vendor (Cone) option, or are there others? Or do I have a printer that works with no aftermarket ink cartridges? David Kachel [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2010-03-01 by edward wiseman
David.. Try this link..Lyson USA, AKA "ink2image.com"..I'm re-filling my 1400 epsons with their system, and they DO show a system for the Epson 3800..give them a call and ask for Joe or Tony..They're VERY cooperative, and customer oriented..I have NO affiliation with them except asa SATISFIED CUSTOMER!! I don't think they have the B&W "pigment "inkset, but they do have a cartridge system.. Eddie Wiseman http://ink2image.com/Pro3800refillkit.html
----- Original Message -----
From: David Kachel
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 3:11 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] which sepia ink set
On Mar 1, 2010, at 1:30 PM, David Kachel wrote:
> It is my understanding that there are really only two contenders remaining for 100% carbon sepia inks.
> I was going to buy the Cone inks but the $100 price jump made me jump so I am taking another look.
>
>
I just got off the phone with MIS. Apparently their ink sets are out of the question with the Espon 3800? They tell me there are no cartridges that work properly with the 3800?
Then how come the Cone system seems to be OK? Or is it?
What experiences have others had with aftermarket empty cartridge systems for the 3800? Am I stuck with a single vendor (Cone) option, or are there others? Or do I have a printer that works with no aftermarket ink cartridges?
David Kachel
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]2010-03-01 by David Kachel
On Mar 1, 2010, at 2:09 PM, C D Tobie wrote: > I would have to say none... in that 100 percent carbon ink does not > really run to a sepia tone, just a carbon tone, which is much subtler. OK, which is the most brown? David Kachel [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2010-03-01 by Mark Savoia
I would recommend getting some samples made from various people using them. Seeing is the true test as to what you will like. Mark http://www.stillrivereditions.com
On Mar 1, 2010, at 4:12 PM, David Kachel wrote: > > On Mar 1, 2010, at 2:09 PM, C D Tobie wrote: > >> I would have to say none... in that 100 percent carbon ink does not >> really run to a sepia tone, just a carbon tone, which is much >> subtler. > > OK, which is the most brown? > > David Kachel
2010-03-01 by David Kachel
On Mar 1, 2010, at 3:14 PM, Mark Savoia wrote: > I would recommend getting some samples made from various people using > them. Seeing is the true test as to what you will like. Volunteers? David Kachel [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2010-03-01 by robert49brake
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, David Kachel <david@...> wrote: > OK, which is the most brown? David, If you go to MIS's website>Bulk Inks>Color Swabs then scroll down to near the end of the page, the UT2 and UT7 inksets have a pure carbon ink in them. In the UT2 it is the Mag/Lt Mag positions and UT7 is the C/LC position (same ink). You can also see them on the same page as the Sepia toner for those inksets. (That Sepia toner is heavily colored though.) That's about as warm as I've seen Carbon get. I have some of the UT-7 LC around that I use to warm up and split-tone an inkset that has some of the very cool HP Vivera PK in it. What I see on my screen of the MIS color swabs (calibrated Viewsonic through OS X) is pretty accurate for the LC position ink. As I write this a bell is ringing in the back of my head that I have some Cone Sepia around somewhere. Contact me off list and I'll see what I can come up with for densities. Let me know what kind of paper you are thinking about: matte/glossy (f type), bright or natural. Best, Robert
2010-03-02 by pr_roark
> David Kachel wrote: > > > Of the existing 100% carbon sepia ink sets available, which is the > > most sepia toned? C D Tobie wrote: > > I would have to say none... in that 100 percent carbon ink > does not really run to a sepia tone, just a carbon tone, > which is much subtler. > I agree with C D Tobie. The carbon warm for either MIS glossy/matte carbon (LK, and as used in the variable tone inksets) or Cone carbon sepia reach about Lab B=8 on matte paper. On glossy paper you can hit about Lab B=12 with the MIS carbon. The true old type sepias I measured and replicated with the UT2/7 sepia toner were more like Lab B=20+. The UT2/7 sepia toner, however, is very much not a 100% carbon ink. It has lots of color in it, and fades accordingly. The relatively fast fade is why I dropped the toner from inksets after UT7. Since a true sepia color with inkjets appears to require significant amounts of color inks, I consider them best done with a K3 or the like inkset. If I were to mix one today for my own uses, I'd probably try using HP or Epson color pigments. It would be interesting to get the Lab A and B coordinates for the HP and Epson orange or red pigments. They might be useful for use in reaching a sepia tone. Paul www.PaulRoark.com
2010-03-02 by David Kachel
On Mar 1, 2010, at 7:31 PM, pr_roark wrote: > I agree with C D Tobie. The carbon warm for either MIS glossy/matte carbon (LK, and as used in the variable tone inksets) or Cone carbon sepia reach about Lab B=8 on matte paper. On glossy paper you can hit about Lab B=12 with the MIS carbon. The true old type sepias I measured and replicated with the UT2/7 sepia toner were more like Lab B=20+. > > The UT2/7 sepia toner, however, is very much not a 100% carbon ink. It has lots of color in it, and fades accordingly. The relatively fast fade is why I dropped the toner from inksets after UT7. > > Since a true sepia color with inkjets appears to require significant amounts of color inks, I consider them best done with a K3 or the like inkset. If I were to mix one today for my own uses, I'd probably try using HP or Epson color pigments. It would be interesting to get the Lab A and B coordinates for the HP and Epson orange or red pigments. They might be useful for use in reaching a sepia tone. OK, I guess I should clarify further. I simply used the term "sepia" that the ink manufacturers were using. I know its not sepia, but I thought if I used the same term we would be on the same page. So let me restate it more clearly. I have purchased an Epson 3800 for the sole purpose of using a carbon ink set. After the fact I discovered that there may not be any functional aftermarket cartridges (this info coming from MIS) suitable for use with the 3800 and carbon inks. But if there are such cartridges, I would like to know who makes them. Then I would like to know whose 100% carbon inks are the warmest in general so that I may start experimenting with them. If I cannot get a useful set of cartridges and carbon inks then I might as well go with the standard Epson inks which I have avoided thus far due specifically to their poor performance compared to the HP inks with regard to longevity. Prior to the 3800 my printer has been the B9180 with which I can get exactly the color I want, but print longevity is apparently not as good (based on what I have read here) as the Wilhelm results would imply. I do not ascribe to the "I don't care what happens to my prints after I am dead" philosophy. I am willing to sacrifice tone for longevity but not the other way around. David Kachel [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2010-03-02 by Gary
David, Jon Cone at InkjetMall.com has refillable cartridges for the 3800 listed on the website. I purchased a CIS from Inkjetmall for my 3800 over a year ago and have used Cone inks and MIS inks successfully. I do have some clogging issues but most I can work through. Inkrepublic.com also has refillable cartridges for the 3800 on their website. They told me they should work fine with MIS or Cone inks but I have not tried them. Gary Wagner
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Kachel Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 6:13 PM To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Digital BW] which sepia ink set On Mar 1, 2010, at 7:31 PM, pr_roark wrote: > I agree with C D Tobie. The carbon warm for either MIS glossy/matte carbon (LK, and as used in the variable tone inksets) or Cone carbon sepia reach about Lab B=8 on matte paper. On glossy paper you can hit about Lab B=12 with the MIS carbon. The true old type sepias I measured and replicated with the UT2/7 sepia toner were more like Lab B=20+. > > The UT2/7 sepia toner, however, is very much not a 100% carbon ink. It has lots of color in it, and fades accordingly. The relatively fast fade is why I dropped the toner from inksets after UT7. > > Since a true sepia color with inkjets appears to require significant amounts of color inks, I consider them best done with a K3 or the like inkset. If I were to mix one today for my own uses, I'd probably try using HP or Epson color pigments. It would be interesting to get the Lab A and B coordinates for the HP and Epson orange or red pigments. They might be useful for use in reaching a sepia tone. OK, I guess I should clarify further. I simply used the term "sepia" that the ink manufacturers were using. I know its not sepia, but I thought if I used the same term we would be on the same page. So let me restate it more clearly. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2010-03-02 by E.Neilsen
If there is a tone in photography that is more personal than sepia, I don't know what it is; perhaps neutral. One persons sepia is just a light brown. And yes there is a real sepia color, a sepia tone is driven by lots of different things. I for one have been using the Piezotone Sepia set for many years and find it a nice tone; a bit like my platinum/palladium prints with Pot Ox. Eric Neilsen Eric Neilsen Photography 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9 Dallas, TX 75226 www.ericneilsenphotography.com skype me with ejprinter www.ericneilsenphotography.com/forum1 Let's Talk Photography _____
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of C D Tobie Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 2:09 PM To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Digital BW] which sepia ink set On Mar 1, 2010, at 2:30 PM, David Kachel wrote: > Of the existing 100% carbon sepia ink sets available, which is the > most sepia toned? I would have to say none... in that 100 percent carbon ink does not really run to a sepia tone, just a carbon tone, which is much subtler. C. David Tobie Global Product Technology Manager Digital Imaging & Home Theater CDTobie@datacolor. <mailto:CDTobie%40datacolor.com> com ---------- Datacolor www.datacolor.com/Spyder3 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2010-03-02 by Ernst Dinkla
pr_roark schreef: > like inkset. If I were to mix one today for my own uses, I'd > probably try using HP or Epson color pigments. It would be > interesting to get the Lab A and B coordinates for the HP and Epson > orange or red pigments. They might be useful for use in reaching a > sepia tone. What would be the right way to get that measured? -- Met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla Gallery Canvas Wrap Actions | Dinkla Grafische Techniek | | www.pigment-print.com | | ( unvollendet ) |
2010-03-02 by pr_roark
Ernst Dinkla <edinkla@...> wrote: > > pr_roark schreef: > > >... It would be interesting to get the Lab A and B > > coordinates for the HP and Epson orange or red pigments. > > They might be useful for use in reaching a sepia tone. > > What would be the right way to get that measured? If you have a rip that can print those colors by themselves, a midtone print value on a common matte paper like H. Photo Rag would probably provide the information needed. In draw-down tests the heavy load often masks the color, but even there or with a simple swab some idea of what the midtone values would be. Paul www.PaulRoark.com
2010-03-02 by Ernst Dinkla
pr_roark schreef: > Ernst Dinkla <edinkla@...> wrote: >> pr_roark schreef: >> >>> ... It would be interesting to get the Lab A and B >>> coordinates for the HP and Epson orange or red pigments. >>> They might be useful for use in reaching a sepia tone. >> What would be the right way to get that measured? > > If you have a rip that can print those colors by themselves, a midtone print value on a common matte paper like H. Photo Rag would probably provide the information needed. In draw-down tests the heavy load often masks the color, but even there or with a simple swab some idea of what the midtone values would be. > > Paul > www.PaulRoark.com > > I had something in mind like measuring on the ink itself or printed on a completely neutral substrate. And I didn't think of my Wasatch SoftRip that should be able to do that if I close all the other ink channels. I have the content of some Z3100 carts that expired before use. The Z3200 has the heavier Chromatic Red. Will see what I can do, there's a longer job running on it. -- Met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla Gallery Canvas Wrap Actions | Dinkla Grafische Techniek | | www.pigment-print.com | | ( unvollendet ) |
2010-03-09 by Ernst Dinkla
pr_roark schreef: > If you have a rip that can print those colors by themselves, a midtone print value on a common matte paper like H. Photo Rag would probably provide the information needed. In draw-down tests the heavy load often masks the color, but even there or with a simple swab some idea of what the midtone values would be. > > Paul > www.PaulRoark.com > > I should have thought about the normal Z calibration targets right away. 16 shades of the 11 inks to measure. Printed this with the Z3200 and the Z3100 on William Turner that has no OBA, measured with the Eye 1: Z3200 Chromatic Red Soaked Lab 45.7, 53.0, 31.7, 100% Lab 49.2, 68.2 47.9, 50% Lab 62.1, 59.0 41.0, Z3100 Red Soaked Lab 53.4, 57.5, 40.8, 100% Lab 56.2, 66.5, 54.6, 50% Lab 65.1, 61.3, 49.1, Soaked = William Turner + heavy dripping right from the cartridges. Paul, no Teflon tape around? -- Met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla Gallery Canvas Wrap Actions | Dinkla Grafische Techniek | | www.pigment-print.com | | ( unvollendet ) |