Digital BW, The Print

I am wondering if anyone out there might be in the know as to what grades of Carbon Black/Lamp Black are good starting points for building B&W inks for inkjet printing from scratch. I have an Epson Pro 4000 that I am currently using the UT7 ink set in, it does a decent job, but I know it could be better. I am thinking more and more about Carbon on Cotton, with multiple dilutions of black. Plus it seems like a do-able task and if for no other reason to say I did.

Thought anyone?

Thanks Larry Heath

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

"Larry Heath" <lgheath@...> wrote:
>
> I am wondering if anyone out there might be in the know as to what grades of Carbon Black/Lamp Black are good starting points for building B&W inks for inkjet printing from scratch. I have an Epson Pro 4000 that I am currently using the UT7 ink set in, it does a decent job, but I know it could be better. I am thinking more and more about Carbon on Cotton, with multiple dilutions of black. Plus it seems like a do-able task and if for no other reason to say I did.
> 

I recommend you start with a pigment that has been prepared for inkjet printing.  I've used Daniel Smith pigments to experiment with, but they appear to not be ground to as uniform dimensions and not have the dispersion (usually electrostatic) coating treatment that our inkjet pigments have.

For me, the trick was to find the most neutral carbon that was already prepared for inkjets.  That way simple dilution is all the more  that needs to be done.

Most of the carbon that you'll find for inkjets is warm.  That's the main reason I start with Eboni for my matte printing.  If you like warmer, there are lost of  sources of carbon, including MIS's Photo  Black.

Have fun.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

There are hundreds of grades of carbon black, lampblack and channel 
black. The different tinting strengths, colors, particle sizes and 
surface treatment options make an intelligent choice even more 
difficult. Dispersing them, especially into water is a science unto 
itself. I'd stick with dilutions already available

Thank you Paul, I was hoping you would give me some words of wisdom on this subject.

I kind of like a warm tone, and also a selenium tone look if I can figure out a ink/paper combination that will give me these. Paul if you would be willing, what are the particle sizes and surface structure types of the carbon that you use or is in Eboni, or even the Daniel Smith carbon, that would give me a bench mark to very from and to experiment to get to something that suits my particular tastes. 

The Paul Smith material is the most reasonable cost per unit size I have seen i.e. reasonable package size for the cost, likely due to less than rigorous QC and thus particle size distribution, but is still quite enticing. I guess Monday I will give them a call and see if they can give me specifics on size and surface area/structure of this product. 15% to 20% W/W in one of the C6 formulations sounds very enticing, as a quick and dirty jumping off point.

On the other hand.

Do you know anything about of the general performance characteristics (on real paper) of the CAB-O-JET product line from Cabot corp.? In specific do you know anything, performance wise again on paper, about their CAB-O-JET 400 product (newest in line) that obviously isn't shown in there product sheet. 

http://www.cabot-corp.com/wcm/download/en-us/ij/CAB-O-JET%20200_0209.pdf
http://www.cabot-corp.com/wcm/download/en-us/ij/CAB-O-JET%20300_0209.pdf
http://www.cabot-corp.com/wcm/download/en-us/ij/CAB-O-JET400_0209.pdf


I realize these are aqueous solutions, and I am looking for a dry product but it is a starting point to make comparison to the particle sizes and concentrations to use of the dry products I might find available in reasonable sized package quantities, or even simply just use these products as is, as you suggest, if costs and performance characteristics are right. 


Thanks Again

Larry Heath

From: pr_roark 
Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2010 12:09 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Carbon Black, Lamp Black


  

"Larry Heath" <lgheath@...> wrote:
>
> I am wondering if anyone out there might be in the know as to what grades of Carbon Black/Lamp Black are good starting points for building B&W inks for inkjet printing from scratch. I have an Epson Pro 4000 that I am currently using the UT7 ink set in, it does a decent job, but I know it could be better. I am thinking more and more about Carbon on Cotton, with multiple dilutions of black. Plus it seems like a do-able task and if for no other reason to say I did.
> 

I recommend you start with a pigment that has been prepared for inkjet printing. I've used Daniel Smith pigments to experiment with, but they appear to not be ground to as uniform dimensions and not have the dispersion (usually electrostatic) coating treatment that our inkjet pigments have.

For me, the trick was to find the most neutral carbon that was already prepared for inkjets. That way simple dilution is all the more that needs to be done.

Most of the carbon that you'll find for inkjets is warm. That's the main reason I start with Eboni for my matte printing. If you like warmer, there are lost of sources of carbon, including MIS's Photo Black.

Have fun.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

"Larry Heath" <lgheath@...> wrote:
>
> ... what are the particle sizes and surface structure types of the carbon that you use or is in Eboni,

All of the inkjet carbon is ground very small so that it'll stay in suspension reasonably well.  I've never found specific information on Eboni.  However, I'm told it's slightly larger than the usual inkjet carbon, and that is why it's also less warm and settles faster.


> ...
> Do you know anything about of the general performance characteristics (on real paper) of the CAB-O-JET product line from Cabot corp.?

I'm told it is warm, like all the other carbon.  I'd guess Cabot makes very good pigments.  In fact, some have speculated the MIS Pk is a Cabot material, but the wholesale suppliers don't disclose their sources.  I've been told by that supplier Eboni is not a Cabot product.

> ... I am looking for a dry product ...

Good luck.  I think you'll find it takes special equipment and serious chemistry background to get an appropriate dispersion coating on the particles.  That is where a significant amount of the competition seems to be.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

I have an old home made Ball Mill that should do for mixing/grinding, with the Daniel Smith product  as a starting point. I called Smith and Company, and they don't have a clue as to size other than very fine, I will see if I can get a size distribution, as is, as soon as I can. I have access to a pair of particle/cell analyzers where I work that should give me a good estimate of mean size and distribution of base stock and then what I can whip up. For a high concentration base stock, I think I will start by trying a 1 to 1 or 2 to 1 mix of your clear base C6a formula and the Smith carbon product with 15 lbs of 1/4" chrome balls (SAE 52100) milled for 5 hours at 200 rpm, and see what I end up with. Should be fun.

One last thing Paul, then I will go away and leave you alone for a while, could you expand on the bit about the "appropriate dispersion coating"  just a bit?  As in chemicals reacted with and covalently bonded to the carbon particles, or as in specific wetting agents to prevent particulate conglomeration, or something all together different?

Anyway, thanks again for the help and pointers.

Larry

From: pr_roark 
Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2010 2:55 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Carbon Black, Lamp Black


  
"Larry Heath" <lgheath@...> wrote:
>
> ... what are the particle sizes and surface structure types of the carbon that you use or is in Eboni,

All of the inkjet carbon is ground very small so that it'll stay in suspension reasonably well. I've never found specific information on Eboni. However, I'm told it's slightly larger than the usual inkjet carbon, and that is why it's also less warm and settles faster.

> ...
> Do you know anything about of the general performance characteristics (on real paper) of the CAB-O-JET product line from Cabot corp.?

I'm told it is warm, like all the other carbon. I'd guess Cabot makes very good pigments. In fact, some have speculated the MIS Pk is a Cabot material, but the wholesale suppliers don't disclose their sources. I've been told by that supplier Eboni is not a Cabot product.

> ... I am looking for a dry product ...

Good luck. I think you'll find it takes special equipment and serious chemistry background to get an appropriate dispersion coating on the particles. That is where a significant amount of the competition seems to be.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

"Larry Heath" <lgheath@...> wrote:
>
> I have an old home made Ball Mill that should do for mixing/grinding, with the Daniel Smith product  as a starting point. I called Smith and Company, and they don't have a clue as to size other than very fine, I will see if I can get a size distribution, as is, as soon as I can. I have access to a pair of particle/cell analyzers where I work that should give me a good estimate of mean size and distribution of base stock and then what I can whip up. For a high concentration base stock, I think I will start by trying a 1 to 1 or 2 to 1 mix of your clear base C6a formula and the Smith carbon product with 15 lbs of 1/4" chrome balls (SAE 52100) milled for 5 hours at 200 rpm, and see what I end up with. Should be fun.


> 
> One last thing Paul, then I will go away and leave you alone for a while, could you expand on the bit about the "appropriate dispersion coating"  just a bit?  As in chemicals reacted with and covalently bonded to the carbon particles, or as in specific wetting agents to prevent particulate conglomeration, or something all together different?

My understanding is that some type of dispersion coating is usually applied in the ball grinding.  Steric or electrostatic appear to be the 2 basic types.  HP has combined them in what it calls "electrosteric."  See http://h10088.www1.hp.com/cda/gap/display/main/index.jsp?zn=gap&cp=20000-20058-20744-20843^27752_4041_100__

The traditional steric dispersion solution was gum arabic.  Most of our inkjet pigments appear to use electrostatic methods.  With these they do appear to be bonded to the outside of the pigment particle.

See also http://www.nanoparticles.org/pdf/Kowalski.pdf for some interesting information.  Some think Cabot is one of the ultimate sources for some of our pigments.

I played with gum arabic (carried by Photographers' Formulary) to see if I could slow the settling of Eboni.  I achieved a marginal improvement, but it also warmed up the mix.  So I dropped the effort and decided to just rely on agitation of the carts (which appears to be working without any negative side effects in the 7800).

Good luck with the experiments.  (If you get it to work, I have some special pigments I'd like you to try.)

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com