Digital BW, The Print

I've been exploring the best way to print a photo that, I think, benefits from a very warm image tone, if not full-on sepia.  So far, I think MIS LK in the 1400 (currently with HP PK) seems to be the easiest.  

See http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Cayucus%20Water%20Tower.pdf

The shot was taken in Cayucus, CA last Friday. 

The inkset in the printer has been my Eboni-6, HP PK combo -- see http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eb1400.pdf.  So, I basically wanted to just see what MIS carbon would do in the easiest fashion possible without disrupting my current inkset options significantly.  

UT14 has MIS LK and PK in the Lm-M positions.  So, I grabbed my UT14 LM cart, but put it in the LC spot, so that it would be paired with the HP PK that was already in the C spot.  I decided to use the Epson driver (and pre-made cross-over).  I made a simple, straight line Photoshop curve that is just the Red Curve (cyan ink position) from 0 to 100.  With the Epson driver set to Premium Photo Semi Gloss and No Color Adjustment, the 1400 prints almost a straight line.  I put the curve and spectro information into an ICC using QTR's Create ICC-RGB.  Then I printed the full image.

The monitor screen grab with the ICC used to soft proof the image is quite accurate.  The graph of the Lab A & B show the warmth.

I think give the ease and lack of any need to mix a sepia toner will probably cause me to just stop here, maybe substituting MIS (or Epson K2) PK for a 100% carbon PK. 

I have not spent much time exploring which papers are warmest with MIS carbon, but my impression is that the glossy ones have a higher gamut, that is, warmer tone, than the matte papers.  Do any other papers come to mind that might print warmer than this with carbon?  

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Paul I can't match the specifics of your setup, but here are some Lab numbers from QTR printing in calibration mode on an old Epson Pro 4000 using MIS inks Eboni (MP-PT-K) and Light Black (MP-PT-LK) on Optica One (100% cotton) from Breathing Color 300gsm. Dmax of 1.66 is seen in the K channel at 85% (16.4,0.6,1.1) then bounces around a bit on out to 100%, but is pretty much the same. The warmest point in the K channel is at around 15% to 20%,  15% (47.5,1.5,4.5) 20% (40.6,1.6,4.4). The LK channel is pretty warm throughout, 5% (85.3,1.0,4.5) peak is somewhere between about 35% to 40%, 35% (56.7,2.0,6.2), 40% (54.2,2.0,6.2) and stays warm out to 100% (38.3,2.0,5.3). The Optica One is a heavy (300gsm) 15.4 mil, smooth matte, you can get a 17" x 20' trail roll for around $30 http://www.breathingcolor.com/action/bc_shop/130/ . I do very little on glossy paper so I can only offer this paper as a suggestion as the warmest I've seen, and that isn't saying much. 

Breathing Color claims this paper has OB's but I sure can't see it, as warm as this sample roll seems to print on my old Epson 4000. I used an X-Rite PhotoMunki for the Lab numbers, and I haven't had it long either. I have only printed one or two prints on this paper and it visually seems quite warm to me, again I like warm, so its all good for me.  This base paper gives me a Lab of (97.0,0.2,3.1) they claim the paper has a Lab of (97.4,1.6,-4.3). Could very well be I am doing something wrong in the measuring process, don't know. Paper looks warm to me, prints warm to me, Lab numbers seem pretty warm to me, irrespective of what they say on there web site. Any way for $30 for a 20' roll (lot # 42-52B is what I am using now and just got it about a week ago) it might cheaply get your photo printed pleasantly warm, particularly given what I saw in the link below.

I hope all this stuff isn't a waste of your time.

Later Larry


PS thanks for the link to the articles on inks, I chased through a bunch of patents relating to inkjet inks at the patent office, that was REALLY enlightening!

Thanks again 
Larry

From: pr_roark 
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 11:37 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: [Digital BW] Warm carbon


  
I've been exploring the best way to print a photo that, I think, benefits from a very warm image tone, if not full-on sepia. So far, I think MIS LK in the 1400 (currently with HP PK) seems to be the easiest. 

See http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Cayucus%20Water%20Tower.pdf

The shot was taken in Cayucus, CA last Friday. 

The inkset in the printer has been my Eboni-6, HP PK combo -- see http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eb1400.pdf. So, I basically wanted to just see what MIS carbon would do in the easiest fashion possible without disrupting my current inkset options significantly. 

UT14 has MIS LK and PK in the Lm-M positions. So, I grabbed my UT14 LM cart, but put it in the LC spot, so that it would be paired with the HP PK that was already in the C spot. I decided to use the Epson driver (and pre-made cross-over). I made a simple, straight line Photoshop curve that is just the Red Curve (cyan ink position) from 0 to 100. With the Epson driver set to Premium Photo Semi Gloss and No Color Adjustment, the 1400 prints almost a straight line. I put the curve and spectro information into an ICC using QTR's Create ICC-RGB. Then I printed the full image.

The monitor screen grab with the ICC used to soft proof the image is quite accurate. The graph of the Lab A & B show the warmth.

I think give the ease and lack of any need to mix a sepia toner will probably cause me to just stop here, maybe substituting MIS (or Epson K2) PK for a 100% carbon PK. 

I have not spent much time exploring which papers are warmest with MIS carbon, but my impression is that the glossy ones have a higher gamut, that is, warmer tone, than the matte papers. Do any other papers come to mind that might print warmer than this with carbon? 

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

"Larry Heath" <lgheath@...> wrote:
>
> ... here are some Lab numbers from QTR printing in calibration mode on an old Epson Pro 4000 using MIS inks ... on Optica One (100% cotton) from Breathing Color ... The LK channel ... peak is ... (38.3, 2.0, 5.3)...

Thanks.

I have not found a matte paper that'll get over Lab B=8 with carbon inks.  That's why I'm exploring the glossy stock.  With a brightened paper I can get up to a delta-b (paper white to max. Lab B) of 15 with the MIS LK.  However, I think bright paper with warm tones looks odd.  The Crane Silver Rag is a warm, non-OBA paper that, so far, seems to produce the most "sepia-like" tones I've found with a 100% carbon ink.

I have HP PK and some dilutions of it in my 7800 now, along with dilute Eboni for matte printing.  In fact, I've never used the HP inks in the 7800.  The customers of most interest at that level are much more interested in 100% carbon and warm.  So ...  I may pull the HP inks and go with a warm, glossy compatible carbon for a "sepia" tone.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Paul,

Using Image Specialist (same as MIS K4?) LK and LLK and Epson OEM K3 PK, printing on Epson Exhibition Fiber, I get b more than 12. It remains more than 10 across 50% to 80% patches, and drops down to paper-white rather gracefully. It also gets cooler towards Dmax. These were printed on a Epson 4000 using QTR. Dmax after second pass glop was >2.75.

I personally think this is a good match between paper and inks because b values drop quite nicely towards paper white.

Hope this helps.

Shilesh

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark" <roark.paul@...> wrote:

>
> I've been exploring the best way to print a photo that, I think, benefits from a very warm image tone, if not full-on sepia.  So far, I think MIS LK in the 1400 (currently with HP PK) seems to be the easiest.  
> 
> See http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Cayucus%20Water%20Tower.pdf
> 
> The shot was taken in Cayucus, CA last Friday. 
> 
> The inkset in the printer has been my Eboni-6, HP PK combo -- see http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eb1400.pdf.  So, I basically wanted to just see what MIS carbon would do in the easiest fashion possible without disrupting my current inkset options significantly.  
> 
> UT14 has MIS LK and PK in the Lm-M positions.  So, I grabbed my UT14 LM cart, but put it in the LC spot, so that it would be paired with the HP PK that was already in the C spot.  I decided to use the Epson driver (and pre-made cross-over).  I made a simple, straight line Photoshop curve that is just the Red Curve (cyan ink position) from 0 to 100.  With the Epson driver set to Premium Photo Semi Gloss and No Color Adjustment, the 1400 prints almost a straight line.  I put the curve and spectro information into an ICC using QTR's Create ICC-RGB.  Then I printed the full image.
> 
> The monitor screen grab with the ICC used to soft proof the image is quite accurate.  The graph of the Lab A & B show the warmth.
> 
> I think give the ease and lack of any need to mix a sepia toner will probably cause me to just stop here, maybe substituting MIS (or Epson K2) PK for a 100% carbon PK. 
> 
> I have not spent much time exploring which papers are warmest with MIS carbon, but my impression is that the glossy ones have a higher gamut, that is, warmer tone, than the matte papers.  Do any other papers come to mind that might print warmer than this with carbon?  
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

On Mar 11, 2010, at 9:30 PM, shileshjani wrote:

> second pass glop


???

David Kachel



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

glop = gloss optimizer. It reduces gloss differential and generally increases Dmax quite a bit.



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, David Kachel <david@...> wrote:

>
> 
> On Mar 11, 2010, at 9:30 PM, shileshjani wrote:
> 
> > second pass glop
> 
> 
> ???
> 
> David Kachel
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

"shileshjani" <janishilesh@...> wrote:
>
 
> Using Image Specialist (same as MIS K4?) LK and LLK and Epson OEM K3 PK, printing on Epson Exhibition Fiber, I get b more than 12...

Thanks for the info.  

A quick review of the information in Aardenburg-Imaging tests is a bit discouraging, however.  Epson Exhibition Fiber appears to be highly brightened.  The initial paper white in AaI testing was about Lab B = -5. (See http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/)  It ultimately warms to more than Lab B=2.  I think it has the worst I* rating I've seen for a paper.  (Maybe Epson ought to rename it "Short Term Exhibition" paper.)

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark" <roark.paul@...> wrote:
>
> I've been exploring the best way to print a photo that, I think, benefits from a very warm image tone, if not full-on sepia.  So far, I think MIS LK in the 1400 (currently with HP PK) seems to be the easiest.  
> 


This appears to be what I have been after. However, as I don't quite yet "speak the language", can you please translate this into ignorantese?

What inks do I need to buy and  from whom, what slots do they go in? Where can I get the profiles, etc., I need to use this?
Isn't PK a glossy black ink? I want to print on matte papers. Will this not work?

Also, on you web page: http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/
You show a very brown tone print, what I am after, but then seem to say that this is only possible on glossy papers? Is that correct? In addition, I do not find mention of any warm tone LK ink set on the MIS site. Do they not package this ink set?

TIA

"davidkachel" <david@...> wrote:

"pr_roark" <roark.paul@> wrote:
> >
> > I've been exploring the best way to print a photo that, I think, benefits from a very warm image tone, if not full-on sepia.  So far, I think MIS LK in the 1400 ... seems to be the easiest.  
 
> ... can you please translate this ... ?

I'm not sure what the date was on that quote, but what I've been doing is using MIS glossy carbon pigments to print what I call a "sepia" tone on Museo Silver Rag paper.  It's the warmest 100% carbon print I know how to make.

The inks are sold by MIS as the "K4" PK, LK, and LLK.  See 

http://www.inksupply.com/product-details.cfm?pn=K4-4-pk

http://www.inksupply.com/product-details.cfm?pn=K4-4-LK

http://www.inksupply.com/product-details.cfm?pn=K4-4-LLK

If you're using a 1400, you can buy the PK and LK as pre-loaded carts for the UT14-M and LM positions.  See http://www.inksupply.com/ut14_black_and_white.cfm

Probably the easiest way to print a sepia tone print is to use an 1100 and LK ink in all the midtone positions.  These would have to be loaded by you.  That way you can use what we called the "EZ" approach for MIS C88 inks (they also have a C88 EZ warm that is carbon).  I have the workflow for the 1100 noted at http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/1100.pdf.  I have made an ICC for this workflow.


> Isn't PK a glossy black ink? I want to print on matte papers. Will this not work?

It'll print fine on matte paper.  The warmth on matte paper, as measured by the Lab B, is about 8 v. 14 for the glossy Museo. In short, the warmth is less on matte paper.  That is one reason why for the museum reproductions that we wanted to look as "sepia" as possible with 100% carbon, we chose to go with the Museo approach.


 
> Also, on you web page: http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/
> You show a very brown tone print, what I am after, but then seem to say that this is only possible on glossy papers? Is that correct?


That's right.  I made a "sepia" tone ink early on for the UT2 inkset, it was warmer, but the color inks in it made it too unstable for my uses.

Hope this helps.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

>>>

If you're using a 1400, you can buy the PK and LK as pre-loaded carts for
the UT14-M and LM positions.
Seehttp://www.inksupply.com/ut14_black_and_white.cfm

So, if I go with the 1400, what inks will I need in which of the six
cartridges/positions?
And, since I would need to buy cartridges for all six positions, wouldn't it
be better to buy all empty cartridges and all bulk inks, instead of the two
(M & LM) preloaded cartridges?

With this setup would I need to use QTR or Photoshop? Or could I use either?


David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

www.davidkachel.com
david@...

Gallery:
www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
director@...

PO Box  1893
Alpine, TX 79831
(432) 386-5787






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

David Kachel <david@...> wrote:
>
> >>>
> 
>> If you're using a 1400, you can buy the PK and LK as 
>> pre-loaded carts for the UT14-M and LM positions.
>> See http://www.inksupply.com/ut14_black_and_white.cfm
> 
> So, if I go with the 1400, what inks will I need in which of the six
> cartridges/positions?

Are you going to be printing matte or glossy?  If matte, then you'll need Eboni MK in the K position. Even with MK in the K position, you'll be able to print glossy by just using the PK in the C and/or M positions to print the 100% glossy black.  The MK will not be used if the Y position ink (LLK) is turned off at the end.

If all you're interested in is the warmest carbon images, then you could fill all of the positions with the MIS carbon.

> And, since I would need to buy cartridges for all six 
> positions, wouldn't it be better to buy all empty cartridges
> and all bulk inks, instead of the two
> (M & LM) preloaded cartridges?

Yes.

You might consider modeling the all warm carbon printer after the UT14 -- Eboni in K, PK in both M and C, LK in both LM and LC, and then LLK in Y.  (UT14 uses glop there.)

 
> With this setup would I need to use QTR or Photoshop? Or could I use either?


Either.  With QTR you can't have 2 inks of the same density (e.g., 2 LKs) in the "gray" ink channel.  However, you can call one of the channels a "toner" and profile an inkset like this.

I personally think an ICC made with QTR's Create ICC-RGB, with a Photoshop curve embedded in it to control the distribution of inks, makes for the best workflow.  If, for example, you have MK in the K position for matte paper, you can use what I call a "sequential" curve to start the Y first and use it heavily at first, and then start the other channels, one after the other, to spread the starting points and cross-overs.  If the slopes are kept positive these types of curves are very portable among papers.  Then again, you might find that no curves are needed at all.

Note that the 1100 with LK in all the color spots and MK or PK in the K position is easier to maintain in the sense that fewer inks are required.  

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

>>> Are you going to be printing matte or glossy? If matte, then you'll need
Eboni MK in the K position. Even with MK in the K position, you'll be able to
print glossy by just using the PK in the C and/or M positions to print the 100%
glossy black. The MK will not be used if the Y position ink (LLK) is turned off
at the end.

If all you're interested in is the warmest carbon images, then you could
fill all of the positions with the MIS carbon.

Sounds great, but I can't seem to find MIS carbon on their web site. I found
one link, but it then leads to a generic page listing ink sets for a variety
of printers, none of which are "MIS carbon". Their "live" help lets you ask
a question, then they disappear and never come back. If I can convince them
to send me somewhere that I can buy "MIS carbon", what dilutions should I
buy and which slots should I place them in in the 1400? (That MIS site is
one tough cookie to figure out.)

You might consider modeling the all warm carbon printer after the UT14 --
Eboni in K, PK in both M and C, LK in both LM and LC, and then LLK in Y.

Are those all "MIS carbon" inks you refer to above? That is, are K, PK LK
and LLK synonyms for "MIS carbon"? Or are these different inks from the MIS
carbon you recommended above? Are there any dyes mixed into those inks if
they are not the same?


David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

www.davidkachel.com
david@...

Gallery:
www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
director@...

PO Box  1893
Alpine, TX 79831
(432) 386-5787






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Just got off the phone with MIS. They tell me that the inks found on this
page: http://www.inksupply.com/eb6.cfm

Šare all exactly the same thing you refer to as "MIS carbon" inks? Is that
correct? So do I correctly assume that K, PK LK and LLK are all something
else?


David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

www.davidkachel.com
david@...

Gallery:
www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
director@reddoorfinephotographs.com

PO Box  1893
Alpine, TX 79831
(432) 386-5787


David Kachel

___________________

Artist-Photographer
Fine B&W Photographs

www.davidkachel.com
david@...

Gallery:
www.reddoorfinephotographs.com
director@...

PO Box  1893
Alpine, TX 79831
(432) 386-5787




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]