Doepfer

I have a pair of 132-3 VCAs and love them except one thing which is
making me sad. When I control them with a 143-2 ADSR they make a low
"thump" sound. This sound happens regardless of input signal volume or
frequency. the sound actually makes nice kicks ;) but makes a mess or
my delayed arpeggio patches. 

The VCAs are in exp mode. the only way I can make it go away is to use
a slower attack on the ADSR. the only other VCA I have tried is a Asol
SY02 which does not "thump". the SY02 is not DC coupled AFAIk.

I have the ADSR and the VCA's in separate G6 racks.

any suggestions? could this be DC offset due to ground issues? I do
have a furman power conditioner on the AC.

mirror_saw7778, you're not alone, take a look at this thread. I even 
have an audio demo. Let me know if you are hearing the same problem in 
my audio demo: http://modularsynth.net/viewtopic.php?t=2214&start=0

Monroe, the thump problem lies within the modules. Some modules thump, 
others don't. My RS-110 filter thumps with instant attacks, but not my 
A-106-1 Xtreme Filter. My Model 12 filter thumps in Low Q mode, but 
not in High Q mode. Combining the A-132-3 with a filter to create 
something like a lowpass gate can solve the thump problem.

mirror_saw7778's Asol SY02 does not thump. His A-132-3 does. 
mirror_saw778, CAN YOU PROVIDE AN AUDIO DEMO FOR BOTH MODULES?

I believe this is solely due to your amp.  I have experienced this
with several devices, including RS180 (ASys), A132-1, A132-3, ASol
SY01, and even the RS100 filter, if I just modify the amplitude (or
cutoff frequency) with a gate or a fast envelope.  Maybe it's just
because you and I have cheap amplifiers, or maybe it's just inherent
to the voltage levels of modular synths (and their rates of change).
But I think slowing down the envelope time is the only cure.

Anyone with a nice amplifier or monitor have an opinion?

Monroe

On Fri, Feb 20, 2009 at 10:34 PM, mirror_saw7778 <haven1@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have a pair of 132-3 VCAs and love them except one thing which is
> making me sad. When I control them with a 143-2 ADSR they make a low
> "thump" sound. This sound happens regardless of input signal volume or
> frequency. the sound actually makes nice kicks ;) but makes a mess or
> my delayed arpeggio patches.
>
> The VCAs are in exp mode. the only way I can make it go away is to use
> a slower attack on the ADSR. the only other VCA I have tried is a Asol
> SY02 which does not "thump". the SY02 is not DC coupled AFAIk.
>
> I have the ADSR and the VCA's in separate G6 racks.
>
> any suggestions? could this be DC offset due to ground issues? I do
> have a furman power conditioner on the AC.
>
>

One of the guys at Schneider's Buro in Berlin showed me this particular 
"feature" on a few Doepfer modules a while back, in particular the VCAs. 
I believe it has something to do with buffered vs unbuffered inputs, in 
which case the problem is definitely in the module. If this is the 
cause, perhaps you could rig up a simple voltage follower with a single 
opamp to buffer the VCA inputs?

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/Hbase/electronic/opampvar2.html

(I figure, if people want to make electronic music, they should learn 
something about what it's made from: electricity!)

best!
D.

argitoth wrote:
> mirror_saw7778, you're not alone, take a look at this thread. I even 
> have an audio demo. Let me know if you are hearing the same problem in 
> my audio demo: http://modularsynth.net/viewtopic.php?t=2214&start=0
> 
> Monroe, the thump problem lies within the modules. Some modules thump, 
> others don't. My RS-110 filter thumps with instant attacks, but not my 
> A-106-1 Xtreme Filter. My Model 12 filter thumps in Low Q mode, but 
> not in High Q mode. Combining the A-132-3 with a filter to create 
> something like a lowpass gate can solve the thump problem.
> 
> mirror_saw7778's Asol SY02 does not thump. His A-132-3 does. 
> mirror_saw778, CAN YOU PROVIDE AN AUDIO DEMO FOR BOTH MODULES?

-- 
derek holzer ::: http://www.umatic.nl ::: http://blog.myspace.com/macumbista
---Oblique Strategy # 152:
"Tape your mouth"

This used to happen on my ARP 2600 VCA and was a DC offset problem. 
Happily there was a straightforward calibration solution accessed 
with a small screwdriver through a tiny hole in the front panel and 
explained in detail in the manual.

I have a few of the old CEM based A-131 and a couple of RS-180 VCAs 
used with various different mixer/amp/ouput scenarios and never had a 
thump problem from these.

Sounds very much like a calibration issue - you really don't want to 
have to compromise your ADSR times or start filtering unnecessarily 
just to get a decent response from your VCA. Hopefully there's a 
simple solution.

Sean

>I believe this is solely due to your amp. I have experienced this
>with several devices, including RS180 (ASys), A132-1, A132-3, ASol
>SY01, and even the RS100 filter, if I just modify the amplitude (or
>cutoff frequency) with a gate or a fast envelope. Maybe it's just
>because you and I have cheap amplifiers, or maybe it's just inherent
>to the voltage levels of modular synths (and their rates of change).
>But I think slowing down the envelope time is the only cure.
>
>Anyone with a nice amplifier or monitor have an opinion?
>
>Monroe
>
>On Fri, Feb 20, 2009 at 10:34 PM, mirror_saw7778 
><<mailto:haven1%40gmail.com>haven1@gmail.com> wrote:
>>  I have a pair of 132-3 VCAs and love them except one thing which is
>>  making me sad. When I control them with a 143-2 ADSR they make a low
>>  "thump" sound. This sound happens regardless of input signal volume or
>>  frequency. the sound actually makes nice kicks ;) but makes a mess or
>>  my delayed arpeggio patches.
>>
>>  The VCAs are in exp mode. the only way I can make it go away is to use
>>  a slower attack on the ADSR. the only other VCA I have tried is a Asol
>>  SY02 which does not "thump". the SY02 is not DC coupled AFAIk.
>>
>>  I have the ADSR and the VCA's in separate G6 racks.
>>
>>  any suggestions? could this be DC offset due to ground issues? I do
>>  have a furman power conditioner on the AC.
>>
>>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I did some simple patches and found out it is not the 132-3 VCAs
making the "thump" it is in fact my new 106-6 filter. Sorry about not
being absolutely sure before I posted.

I did find some interesting differences between the Asol SY02 and
132-3 which might be of interest to some. the 132-3 reacts much faster
to CV as I cannot get the Asol SY02 VCA to click on a fast attack or
release.

If I use not filter, no "thump" if I use either of the other two
filters I have (A108 and M12 Vactrol Filter) no "thump". As soon as I
use the A106-6 "thump thump thump". The A106-6 into A132-3 with
nothing going into the A106-6 input makes thumps. 

This brings me to someones suggestion of using a buffer, which I am
not sure I understood so I patched the M31 between the A106-6 and
A132-3, still "thump". I can really big thumps if I patch just the
output of a M31 buffered mult into the A132-3. 

I can rid of the thump by slowing down the ADSR attack and release as
I said. however I think the issues lies in the A106-6 creating a DC
offset. Is there a trimmer inside that I could adjust? 

My audio path post modular is a MOTU 828mk2 with Black Lion mods
(analog and clock). I am monitoring it on ATH-M50 headphones.

-Argitoth-
I do not have web space - is there a free site I can post audio files?

I just now listened to the A132-3 recording provided and did not hear
the thump I am experiencing, or anything I would describe as a thump
sound, it just sounded like a fast envelope. My "thump" sounds like a
analog bass drum, or short bass note always at the same frequency. 



--- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, Monroe Eskew <monroe.eskew@...>
wrote:

>
> I don't really hear what the big deal is in your sound demos.  The
> A132-3 demo just sounds more staccato to me.  I don't hear anything
> very annoying.  This may be musically desirable.  And you can
> certainly get ride of it with slower envelope time.  I don't think
> this is any kind of functional sacrifice either.  With the A140
> envelope for example, the phase times can be very finely tuned in the
> "Low" time mode.  And you can achieve "smooth" attacks and releases
> which nonetheless take an almost imperceptible amount of time, an
> amount of time that certainly does not affect musical applications,
> does not eat into the note length in a noticeable way.   Comparable to
> acoustic instruments I'd say, such as a piano.  But then you can turn
> the time way down for a really harsh attack, which a piano can't
> achieve.
> 
> On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 1:03 AM, argitoth <argitoth@...> wrote:
> > mirror_saw7778, you're not alone, take a look at this thread. I even
> > have an audio demo. Let me know if you are hearing the same problem in
> > my audio demo: http://modularsynth.net/viewtopic.php?t=2214&start=0
> >
> > Monroe, the thump problem lies within the modules. Some modules thump,
> > others don't. My RS-110 filter thumps with instant attacks, but not my
> > A-106-1 Xtreme Filter. My Model 12 filter thumps in Low Q mode, but
> > not in High Q mode. Combining the A-132-3 with a filter to create
> > something like a lowpass gate can solve the thump problem.
> >
> > mirror_saw7778's Asol SY02 does not thump. His A-132-3 does.
> > mirror_saw778, CAN YOU PROVIDE AN AUDIO DEMO FOR BOTH MODULES?
> >
> >
>

I don't really hear what the big deal is in your sound demos.  The
A132-3 demo just sounds more staccato to me.  I don't hear anything
very annoying.  This may be musically desirable.  And you can
certainly get ride of it with slower envelope time.  I don't think
this is any kind of functional sacrifice either.  With the A140
envelope for example, the phase times can be very finely tuned in the
"Low" time mode.  And you can achieve "smooth" attacks and releases
which nonetheless take an almost imperceptible amount of time, an
amount of time that certainly does not affect musical applications,
does not eat into the note length in a noticeable way.   Comparable to
acoustic instruments I'd say, such as a piano.  But then you can turn
the time way down for a really harsh attack, which a piano can't
achieve.

On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 1:03 AM, argitoth <argitoth@gmail.com> wrote:
> mirror_saw7778, you're not alone, take a look at this thread. I even
> have an audio demo. Let me know if you are hearing the same problem in
> my audio demo: http://modularsynth.net/viewtopic.php?t=2214&start=0
>
> Monroe, the thump problem lies within the modules. Some modules thump,
> others don't. My RS-110 filter thumps with instant attacks, but not my
> A-106-1 Xtreme Filter. My Model 12 filter thumps in Low Q mode, but
> not in High Q mode. Combining the A-132-3 with a filter to create
> something like a lowpass gate can solve the thump problem.
>
> mirror_saw7778's Asol SY02 does not thump. His A-132-3 does.
> mirror_saw778, CAN YOU PROVIDE AN AUDIO DEMO FOR BOTH MODULES?
>
>

This is what I expected.  Some things have inherent slew.  The A132
has very fast slew which makes it a flexible device.  You can always
fix a click or thump by using an EG or slew module as a mentioned
above, in a non-sacrificial way.

On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 10:49 AM, mirror_saw7778 <haven1@gmail.com> wrote:
> I did some simple patches and found out it is not the 132-3 VCAs
> making the "thump" it is in fact my new 106-6 filter. Sorry about not
> being absolutely sure before I posted.
>
> I did find some interesting differences between the Asol SY02 and
> 132-3 which might be of interest to some. the 132-3 reacts much faster
> to CV as I cannot get the Asol SY02 VCA to click on a fast attack or
> release.
>
> If I use not filter, no "thump" if I use either of the other two
> filters I have (A108 and M12 Vactrol Filter) no "thump". As soon as I
> use the A106-6 "thump thump thump". The A106-6 into A132-3 with
> nothing going into the A106-6 input makes thumps.
>
> This brings me to someones suggestion of using a buffer, which I am
> not sure I understood so I patched the M31 between the A106-6 and
> A132-3, still "thump". I can really big thumps if I patch just the
> output of a M31 buffered mult into the A132-3.
>
> I can rid of the thump by slowing down the ADSR attack and release as
> I said. however I think the issues lies in the A106-6 creating a DC
> offset. Is there a trimmer inside that I could adjust?
>
> My audio path post modular is a MOTU 828mk2 with Black Lion mods
> (analog and clock). I am monitoring it on ATH-M50 headphones.
>
> -Argitoth-
> I do not have web space - is there a free site I can post audio files?
>
>

Monroe, you can't tell people what they should think is musical and 
non-musical... if I hear an ugly thump and you don't, that means my 
ears, musically/metaphorically speaking, are tuned differently than 
yours... but my post is a useless one... I'm not trying to accomplish 
anything.

mirror_saw7778, try www.shup.com Download the program and it allows 
you to upload files via drag+drop, can't be more simple and hassle 
free. It's also hassle-free for the downloaders. Sometimes when you go 
to download something from shup, it brings up a download screen. Other 
times it doesn't... For downloaders: don't be stupid and think the 
link doesn't work if the download screen comes up. :) *smile smile*

On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 12:06 PM, argitoth <argitoth@gmail.com> wrote:
> Monroe, you can't tell people what they should think is musical and
> non-musical... if I hear an ugly thump and you don't, that means my
> ears, musically/metaphorically speaking, are tuned differently than
> yours... but my post is a useless one... I'm not trying to accomplish
> anything.
>

I'm just saying you can kill the click or thump by making the rate of
change on the volume slightly less, with the attack time just going to
that of a piano or violin, i.e. still very short.

Though I am curious, is the "click" phenomenon universal, or can it go
away completely with really nice speakers or some really high end VCA?

Another way to get rid of the "thump" is to use offset. If I patch the
output of the A106-6 into my Plan B M14 and use the offset knob, a
tiny bit of offset removes the thump sounds. If I look at a recording
of the sound witout the offset I can see negative DC offset in the
waveform and a small amount of negative DC that is being amplified by
the VCA. this transition from negative CV to positive CV makes a small
bump, that I hear as a "thump" or "pop" sound.

So mystery solved - the A106-6 introduces DC offset - is there a
module that can AC couple a signal with changing the sound noticeably?
The Asol SY02 is coloring the sound, so I only use it when I dont want
a clean VCA. I guess I could just use offset - but it would be nice to
have something cheaper and smaller that the M14 doing this.

I am NOT talking about the click that happens with a fast envelope
controlling a fast VCA - this is caused by abruptly changing the
volume of a constantly running waveform - which creates a variable
click sound since the wave is suddenly going from zero to whatever
voltage it is presently at. This is what Argitoth is talking about,
and can be dealt with by slowing down the amplitude change of the VCA
or having the VCA and waveform start at a zero crossing at the same time.

thanks for your help everyone.


--- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, "mirror_saw7778" <haven1@...> wrote:

>
> I did some simple patches and found out it is not the 132-3 VCAs
> making the "thump" it is in fact my new 106-6 filter. Sorry about not
> being absolutely sure before I posted.
> 
> I did find some interesting differences between the Asol SY02 and
> 132-3 which might be of interest to some. the 132-3 reacts much faster
> to CV as I cannot get the Asol SY02 VCA to click on a fast attack or
> release.
> 
> If I use not filter, no "thump" if I use either of the other two
> filters I have (A108 and M12 Vactrol Filter) no "thump". As soon as I
> use the A106-6 "thump thump thump". The A106-6 into A132-3 with
> nothing going into the A106-6 input makes thumps. 
> 
> This brings me to someones suggestion of using a buffer, which I am
> not sure I understood so I patched the M31 between the A106-6 and
> A132-3, still "thump". I can really big thumps if I patch just the
> output of a M31 buffered mult into the A132-3. 
> 
> I can rid of the thump by slowing down the ADSR attack and release as
> I said. however I think the issues lies in the A106-6 creating a DC
> offset. Is there a trimmer inside that I could adjust? 
> 
> My audio path post modular is a MOTU 828mk2 with Black Lion mods
> (analog and clock). I am monitoring it on ATH-M50 headphones.
> 
> -Argitoth-
> I do not have web space - is there a free site I can post audio files?
>

> I am NOT talking about the click that happens with a fast envelope
> controlling a fast VCA - this is caused by abruptly changing the
> volume of a constantly running waveform - which creates a variable
> click sound since the wave is suddenly going from zero to whatever
> voltage it is presently at. This is what Argitoth is talking about,
> and can be dealt with by slowing down the amplitude change of the 
VCA

Slowing down the envelope means a duller attack, that means it's not 
nice and sharp. That's what I'm looking for, and I've found that in 
Plan B Model 12 in High Q mode and A-106-1 Xtreme Filter.

mirror_saw7778, here are audio demos that demonstrate more clearly 
what I'm talking about:

THUMP: http://www.elanhickler.com/misc/thumpy.wav
NO THUMP: http://www.elanhickler.com/misc/not_thumpy.wav

In the NO THUMP example, the attack is nice and sharp, no thump. No 
need to slow down the envelope. the THUMP example is using the a-132-
3/

the old (first) version A130 and A131 were ac-coupled, so, if you pass the A106-6 output from one of these vca's, your offset will be removed without sound coloration. i think some doepfer filters are ac-coupled too, but they will probably colour the sound a bit (depending on the filter)...?
any other solution Dieter?


Bakis Sirros - Parallel Worlds / Interconnected / Memory Geist

[Doepfer_a100] group owner

www. parallel - worlds - music. com

www. myspace. com/ parallelworldsmusic

www. myspace. com/ interconnectedmusic

www. myspace. com/ memorygeist

www. DiN. org. uk

www. musicamaximamagnetica. com

www. shimarecords. co. uk

www. rubberrecords. gr

Athens - Greece

--- On Sun, 2/22/09, mirror_saw7778 <haven1@gmail.com> wrote:

From: mirror_saw7778 <haven1@gmail.com>
Subject: [Doepfer_a100] Re: my 132-3 VCA goes "thump"
To: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, February 22, 2009, 12:12 AM











    
            Another way to get rid of the "thump" is to use offset. If I patch the

output of the A106-6 into my Plan B M14 and use the offset knob, a

tiny bit of offset removes the thump sounds. If I look at a recording

of the sound witout the offset I can see negative DC offset in the

waveform and a small amount of negative DC that is being amplified by

the VCA. this transition from negative CV to positive CV makes a small

bump, that I hear as a "thump" or "pop" sound.



So mystery solved - the A106-6 introduces DC offset - is there a

module that can AC couple a signal with changing the sound noticeably?

The Asol SY02 is coloring the sound, so I only use it when I dont want

a clean VCA. I guess I could just use offset - but it would be nice to

have something cheaper and smaller that the M14 doing this.



I am NOT talking about the click that happens with a fast envelope

controlling a fast VCA - this is caused by abruptly changing the

volume of a constantly running waveform - which creates a variable

click sound since the wave is suddenly going from zero to whatever

voltage it is presently at. This is what Argitoth is talking about,

and can be dealt with by slowing down the amplitude change of the VCA

or having the VCA and waveform start at a zero crossing at the same time.



thanks for your help everyone.



--- In Doepfer_a100@ yahoogroups. com, "mirror_saw7778" <haven1@...> wrote:

>

> I did some simple patches and found out it is not the 132-3 VCAs

> making the "thump" it is in fact my new 106-6 filter. Sorry about not

> being absolutely sure before I posted.

> 

> I did find some interesting differences between the Asol SY02 and

> 132-3 which might be of interest to some. the 132-3 reacts much faster

> to CV as I cannot get the Asol SY02 VCA to click on a fast attack or

> release.

> 

> If I use not filter, no "thump" if I use either of the other two

> filters I have (A108 and M12 Vactrol Filter) no "thump". As soon as I

> use the A106-6 "thump thump thump". The A106-6 into A132-3 with

> nothing going into the A106-6 input makes thumps. 

> 

> This brings me to someones suggestion of using a buffer, which I am

> not sure I understood so I patched the M31 between the A106-6 and

> A132-3, still "thump". I can really big thumps if I patch just the

> output of a M31 buffered mult into the A132-3. 

> 

> I can rid of the thump by slowing down the ADSR attack and release as

> I said. however I think the issues lies in the A106-6 creating a DC

> offset. Is there a trimmer inside that I could adjust? 

> 

> My audio path post modular is a MOTU 828mk2 with Black Lion mods

> (analog and clock). I am monitoring it on ATH-M50 headphones.

> 

> -Argitoth-

> I do not have web space - is there a free site I can post audio files?

>




 

      

    
    
	
	 
	
	








	


	
	


      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello everyone.  Like the subject line says.  If anyone has one that they're
considering parting with, please let me know.

 

Actually, if anyone has any clips of the a-101-3 in action, I'd love to hear
them!

 

Thanks for the bandwidth.

 

 

j



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]