Doepfer

Hi,

A question about passive mults. I want to put the signals from two oscillators (prob Rubicons) at very high frequencies together to have the beat frequency in the audio range. Difference tones or I've sometimes heard it called Heterodyning. I have read about doing it with a mixer - but if I used a mult (in reverse - ie two inputs and taking one output) it would be non linear and give more rich harmonics - or so I understand. ( Page 175 Electronic Music: Systems, Techniques and Controls, Allen Strange). But my question is do passive mults work in this way? Is it safe? - ie not going to damage the oscillators in some way?

This comes from reading about Pauline Oliveros's early electronic music and listening to a lot of her music. There are sound textures that I really liked but didn't know how they were made until recently reading about her using supra sonic tones to create beat frequencies in the audio range.

Hope someone can answer about the mults as non linear mixers,

David

www.movingisliving.co.uk

Sent from my iPhone

> On 30 Nov 2014, at 18:36, 'istari' istari@sozialistischer-plattenbau.org [Doepfer_a100] <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
>  Hi
> 
> Useally its good practice to use passive mults not as a mixer, there is a danger that the current flows back from one module out to the othe module out if they are not protected.
> 
> but some people just use passive mults as mixer, i am not
> 
> cheers
> felix
> 
> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> A question about passive mults. I want to put the signals from two oscillators (prob Rubicons) at very high frequencies together to have the beat frequency in the audio range. Difference tones or I've sometimes heard it called Heterodyning. I have read about doing it with a mixer - but if I used a mult (in reverse - ie two inputs and taking one output) it would be non linear and give more rich harmonics - or so I understand. ( Page 175 Electronic Music: Systems, Techniques and Controls, Allen Strange). But my question is do passive mults work in this way? Is it safe? - ie not going to damage the oscillators in some way?
>> 
>> This comes from reading about Pauline Oliveros's early electronic music and listening to a lot of her music. There are sound textures that I really liked but didn't know how they were made until recently reading about her using supra sonic tones to create beat frequencies in the audio range.
>> 
>> Hope someone can answer about the mults as non linear mixers,
>> 
>> David
>> 
>> www.movingisliving.co.uk
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> 
>

> On Nov 30, 2014, at 12:20 PM, florian anwander fanwander@mnet-online.de [Doepfer_a100] <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> Hello David
> 
>> So would buffered mults work in the same way but with no risk?
> No buffered mults wouldn't work at all. They are the opposite of a mixer 
> (think them as 7 aux sends of a mixer, with send volume turned fully up).
> 
> A mixer is a mixer. Thats it.
> 
> A multiple in your planned setup is simply a shortcut between two 
> outputs and one or several inputs. Using them may work some way, as long 
> as you are feeding them with the outputs of equal modules. Feeding them 
> with the outputs of different modules may cause troubles; but as long as 
> they are built like Doepfer ones (a serial resistor in the output path), 
> you won't kill them. The troubles may be in the dimension of "one signal 
> suppresses the other signal in a significant way" or "signal A causes a 
> frequency damping of signal B". This may be fun or may be an unwanted 
> effect.
> 
> Florian
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------
> Posted by: florian anwander <fanwander@mnet-online.de>
> ------------------------------------
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------
> 
> Yahoo Groups Links
> 
> 
>

> On 1 Dec 2014, at 02:08, achtung_999 heinrich.himmelwasser@gmail.com [Doepfer_a100] <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> Then again, a normal mixer that does not amplify (for instance the doepfer a138a/b)  is also a unity gain mixer if you turn all the channels you are using to the maximum setting.
> 
> 
>> On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 10:22 PM, james.husted@mac.com [Doepfer_a100] <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>>  
>> The module you want is a unity gain mixer/summer - it is like a mixer without the level controls. Intellijel designs makes one called the Unity Mixer for US$75 (on Analogue Haven - http://www.analoguehaven.com/intellijeldesigns/unitymixer/ ). It is a dual 3-in 1 out summer that is normalized together so can make a 6-in one out summer. It is also only 2HP wide. Very useful if you have VCOs with only one V/Oct Cv in and you want to drive it with a sequencer and transpose from a keyboard for instance. 
>> -James
>> 
>> James Husted, Designer, Synthwerks LLC • www.synthwerks.com • james@synthwerks.com • info@synthwerks.com
>> 
>> 
>>> On Nov 30, 2014, at 12:20 PM, florian anwander fanwander@mnet-online.de [Doepfer_a100] <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hello David
>>> 
>>>> So would buffered mults work in the same way but with no risk?
>>> No buffered mults wouldn't work at all. They are the opposite of a mixer 
>>> (think them as 7 aux sends of a mixer, with send volume turned fully up).
>>> 
>>> A mixer is a mixer. Thats it.
>>> 
>>> A multiple in your planned setup is simply a shortcut between two 
>>> outputs and one or several inputs. Using them may work some way, as long 
>>> as you are feeding them with the outputs of equal modules. Feeding them 
>>> with the outputs of different modules may cause troubles; but as long as 
>>> they are built like Doepfer ones (a serial resistor in the output path), 
>>> you won't kill them. The troubles may be in the dimension of "one signal 
>>> suppresses the other signal in a significant way" or "signal A causes a 
>>> frequency damping of signal B". This may be fun or may be an unwanted 
>>> effect.
>>> 
>>> Florian
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ------------------------------------
>>> Posted by: florian anwander <fanwander@mnet-online.de>
>>> ------------------------------------
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ------------------------------------
>>> 
>>> Yahoo Groups Links
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>

On 02/12/2014 17:57, David Kellett davidkellettwoulf@yahoo.com [Doepfer_a100] wrote:
> My understanding of mixers like the A 138 is that they are designed to NOT produce the effect that I want - they are designed to minimise the artefacts of bringing the signals together. I'm specifically looking to create interaction effects. As I said in the initial email about using a mult "it would be non linear and give more rich harmonics - or so I understand. ( Page 175 Electronic Music: Systems, Techniques and Controls, Allen Strange)." It is what Strange suggests - using a mult - but I'm wondering how to make it "safe" for the oscillators.
>
> David
>

> On 3 Dec 2014, at 08:56, yahoo@doepfer.de [Doepfer_a100] <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> > Hi,
> >
> > A question about passive mults. I want to put the signals from two oscillators (prob Rubicons) at very high frequencies
> > together to have the beat frequency in the audio range. Difference tones or I've sometimes heard it called Heterodyning.
> > I have read about doing it with a mixer - but if I used a mult (in reverse - ie two inputs and taking one output) it
> > would be non linear and give more rich harmonics - or so I understand. ( Page 175 Electronic Music: Systems, Techniques
> > and Controls, Allen Strange). But my question is do passive mults work in this way? Is it safe? - ie not going to damage
> > the oscillators in some way?
> >
> > This comes from reading about Pauline Oliveros's early electronic music and listening to a lot of her music. There are
> > sound textures that I really liked but didn't know how they were made until recently reading about her using supra sonic
> > tones to create beat frequencies in the audio range.
> >
> > Hope someone can answer about the mults as non linear mixers,
> >
> > David
> 
> If you connect two or more outputs via a passive multiple you generate a short circuit between the outputs. It depends upon the
> output circuits what will happen. In the worst case one or more of the circuits may be damaged (that's not the case for A-100
> modules as the outputs are protected against such patches). If you are lucky you will obtain something similar to mixing of the
> circuits. But the output circuits may also interact and you obtain a result that depends upon the output circuits (e.g. kind of
> clipping or waveshaping or other non-linear effects).
> 
> Best wishes
> Dieter Doepfer
> 
>

> On 3 Dec 2014, at 20:50, andy butler akbutler@tiscali.co.uk [Doepfer_a100] <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> >It sounds like I won't do it then!! Thanks Dieter!!
> 
> ...but that's what you wanted, some kind of non-linear interaction
> and no damage to the modules.
> 
> :-)
> 
> andy
> 
> > But the output circuits may also interact and you obtain a result that depends upon the output circuits (e.g. kind of
> > clipping or waveshaping or other non-linear effects).
>

> On 3 Dec 2014, at 22:00, achtung_999 heinrich.himmelwasser@gmail.com [Doepfer_a100] <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> You could try and contact Intellijel. For what I have understood they are very approachable.
> 
> Ernst
> 
>> On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 9:54 PM, David Kellett davidkellettwoulf@yahoo.com [Doepfer_a100] <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>>  
>> It's the damaging thing I don't want to do! My A110s won't go high enough to do what I want and I don't know enough about my Rubicons to know if they are protected like the Doepfer Modules. 
>> 
>> David
>> 
>> www.movingisliving.co.uk
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone 
>> 
>>> On 3 Dec 2014, at 20:50, andy butler akbutler@tiscali.co.uk [Doepfer_a100] <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> 
>>> >It sounds like I won't do it then!! Thanks Dieter!!
>>> 
>>> ...but that's what you wanted, some kind of non-linear interaction
>>> and no damage to the modules.
>>> 
>>> :-)
>>> 
>>> andy
>>> 
>>> > But the output circuits may also interact and you obtain a result that depends upon the output circuits (e.g. kind of
>>> > clipping or waveshaping or other non-linear effects).
> 
>