Looking for A-129-5
2015-07-13 by zubo.karijes@yahoo.com
Hi All,
I would love to complete my Vocoder and am missing the 129-5 voiced/unvoiced detector. Anyone?
Cheers
Zlatko
Thread
Looking for A-129-5
Re: [Doepfer_a100] Looking for A-129-5
2015-07-16 by Nicholas Keller
Most of the features of that module can be realized with current Doepfer modules, but I appreciate that's not what you want to hear.
On Monday, July 13, 2015, zubo.karijes@yahoo.com [Doepfer_a100] <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
A-119 for input, gain, comparator
A-165 to invert/offset comparator output
A-150 to switch between modulators
You're only missing the treble boost which is rather important.
Nick
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On Monday, July 13, 2015, zubo.karijes@yahoo.com [Doepfer_a100] <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
Hi All,
I would love to complete my Vocoder and am missing the 129-5 voiced/unvoiced detector. Anyone?
Cheers
Zlatko
Re: [Doepfer_a100] Looking for A-129-5
2015-07-16 by Zoë Blade
On 16 Jul 2015, at 20:25, Nicholas Keller maq163x2@gmail.com [Doepfer_a100] <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > Most of the features of that module can be realized with current Doepfer modules, but I appreciate that's not what you want to hear. > > A-119 for input, gain, comparator > > A-165 to invert/offset comparator output > > A-150 to switch between modulators > > You're only missing the treble boost which is rather important. Hold on, I thought the A-129-5 detected vowels vs. hissing white noise type vocal sounds, whereas the patch you're describing would be more to detect whether a loud enough signal's present at all..? Or am I missing something? Thanks, Zoë.
Re: [Doepfer_a100] Looking for A-129-5
2015-07-16 by Nicholas Keller
Well, I may be missing something as I don't have any vocoder modules. My understanding was that when there is no "speech" input, the A-129-5 module switches modulators. That is easily done with a comparator, ie. noise gate. Signals above a certain threshold flip the switch. I don't think the module recognizes "vowels", so much. When there is speech to be used, it activates. When there isn't, it switches to a noise source.
On Thursday, July 16, 2015, Zoë Blade zoe@bytenoise.co.uk [Doepfer_a100] <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
Correct me.
Nick
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On Thursday, July 16, 2015, Zoë Blade zoe@bytenoise.co.uk [Doepfer_a100] <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
On 16 Jul 2015, at 20:25, Nicholas Keller maq163x2@gmail.com [Doepfer_a100] <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> Most of the features of that module can be realized with current Doepfer modules, but I appreciate that's not what you want to hear.
>
> A-119 for input, gain, comparator
>
> A-165 to invert/offset comparator output
>
> A-150 to switch between modulators
>
> You're only missing the treble boost which is rather important.
Hold on, I thought the A-129-5 detected vowels vs. hissing white noise type vocal sounds, whereas the patch you're describing would be more to detect whether a loud enough signal's present at all..? Or am I missing something?
Thanks,
Zoë.
Re: [Doepfer_a100] Looking for A-129-5
2015-07-16 by Florian Anwander
On 16.07.15 23:50 , Nicholas Keller maq163x2@gmail.com
[Doepfer_a100] wrote:
Functional explanation: A voiced/unvoiced detector checks whether there is some signal above a certain frequency, but no signal below this frequency. If both both conditions are given it activates its output.
Electrical explanation: A voiced unvoiced detector is basically a state variable filter, which splits the incoming signal into a hipass path and a lopass path. You may think of it like of a crossover in a loudspeaker.
In both pathes there is an gate-detector (envelope follower with comparator).
In the lopass path the gate-detector is followed by an inverter. Both pathes deliver a logical signal. Those signals are AND'ed. The output of this AND-gate is the output of the "module".
Usually a VCA or switch which activates a white noise signal is controlled by the v/uv-detector.
And to my humble opinion: this kind of unvoiced detection is not very useful. At least it should work like:
In the hipass path there should be only an envelope follower. The output of the gate detector in the lopass path should activate this envelope follower. This creates a bit more dynamic unvoiced hissing.
But to be honest: understandability-wise the best and at the same time the cheapest solution is simply: put a highpass filter at 6-8kHz on the original modulator signal (the original voice). Mix this highpass filtered signal to the output of the vocoder. Its perfekt!
Florian
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Correct me.OK :-)
Functional explanation: A voiced/unvoiced detector checks whether there is some signal above a certain frequency, but no signal below this frequency. If both both conditions are given it activates its output.
Electrical explanation: A voiced unvoiced detector is basically a state variable filter, which splits the incoming signal into a hipass path and a lopass path. You may think of it like of a crossover in a loudspeaker.
In both pathes there is an gate-detector (envelope follower with comparator).
In the lopass path the gate-detector is followed by an inverter. Both pathes deliver a logical signal. Those signals are AND'ed. The output of this AND-gate is the output of the "module".
Usually a VCA or switch which activates a white noise signal is controlled by the v/uv-detector.
And to my humble opinion: this kind of unvoiced detection is not very useful. At least it should work like:
In the hipass path there should be only an envelope follower. The output of the gate detector in the lopass path should activate this envelope follower. This creates a bit more dynamic unvoiced hissing.
But to be honest: understandability-wise the best and at the same time the cheapest solution is simply: put a highpass filter at 6-8kHz on the original modulator signal (the original voice). Mix this highpass filtered signal to the output of the vocoder. Its perfekt!
Florian
Re: [Doepfer_a100] Looking for A-129-5
2015-07-16 by Zoë Blade
Ah, so you *can* achieve this effect with other modules, but you'll need a filter in there? Thanks, this is getting really interesting. The A-129-5 had been a magic black box to me. It's nice to know a bit about how these things work, and yes, that kind of thing does sound replicatable with other modules then. Neat! Cheers, Zoë.
Re: [Doepfer_a100] Looking for A-129-5
2015-07-16 by Nicholas Keller
Oh, I understood it to be level dependent, not frequency dependent.
On Thursday, July 16, 2015, Zoë Blade zoe@bytenoise.co.uk [Doepfer_a100] <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
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On Thursday, July 16, 2015, Zoë Blade zoe@bytenoise.co.uk [Doepfer_a100] <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
Ah, so you *can* achieve this effect with other modules, but you'll need a filter in there? Thanks, this is getting really interesting. The A-129-5 had been a magic black box to me. It's nice to know a bit about how these things work, and yes, that kind of thing does sound replicatable with other modules then. Neat!
Cheers,
Zoë.
AW: [Doepfer_a100] Looking for A-129-5
2015-07-17 by yahoo@doepfer.de
> > Most of the features of that module can be realized with current Doepfer modules, but I appreciate that's not what you > want to hear. > > > > A-119 for input, gain, comparator > > > > A-165 to invert/offset comparator output > > > > A-150 to switch between modulators > > > > You're only missing the treble boost which is rather important. > > Hold on, I thought the A-129-5 detected vowels vs. hissing white noise type vocal sounds, whereas the patch you're > describing would be more to detect whether a loud enough signal's present at all..? Or am I missing something? > > Thanks, > Zoë. Right, the A-129-5 is a bit more complicated. It is made of a treble booster followed by two filters in parallel: a 2kHz high pass and a 1kHz low pass . Each filter is equipped with an envelope follower and a low pass (50Hz / 25Hz) for smoothing the output of the envelope followers. The outputs of the low pass filters are processed by a comparator to generate the voiced/unvoiced gate signal. The function is like this: whenever the level of the high pass branch is higher than the level of the low pass branch the voiced/unvoiced gate signal turns high. There are two internal trimming potentiometers to optimize the result: one to adjust the bass boost in the audio input (only the treble boost is available from the front panel) and one for the level of the 1k low pass signal. Best wishes Dieter Doepfer