Homebrew PCBs

Hello Markus,

The Diazo film from zwitserland is "FOLEX" type "DENSOTRANS"
http://www.folex.ch/index.php?
cat=21&sid=9aaecd1adb9906cfcd05c7d36d21acb0

Go to "Broschûren Download"

Folex have also other product for ink jet printer but i have not use.

For Fluoborate Tin and Fluroborate Lead, this soap come from "RIDEL 
DE AAN, CALDIC".

You can obtain from "AMPERE" in France, but the problem is also for 
the little quantity, only in 25 liter box, and this bath is only use 
for the make up solution, this bath are so expensive, and the 
quantity for make up your bath is so little.

http://www.ampere.com/indexmov.htm

Very very nice for your registation punching system, you obtain the 
same result in pro production, we use a similar method.

The problem for you, is to abtain specialised bath in smal quantity, 
i understand very well this, i thing also, if you take an arrangement 
with PCB pro productor, is an good idea, but, i thing also some door  
get close, but perhaps if you have a good simpatical contact with a 
pro PCB boss this the good way.

With my old copper bath, the refference of brigtner is "1200 -A-" 
and "1200 -B-" and "1200 -M"

For Tin- Lead fluoborate, the reference are "280 -A-", "280 -B-" 
and "280 -M-".

But this reference is old reference, now, i think they are other new 
reference, i thing now the process is "AVANTAGE 2000"

The Fluborate soap are an old system, but this is an so stabil bath, 
and simple to use, he exist also new soap bath, but i have hurt, so 
difficult to the replenisher conduction.

I think also, the direct inkjet image are in the start but for me i 
think the good futur way.

For Daniel, I have see the different Http, very very fine way for 
little tank, just, i am impressed with the proximity of electrical 
and liquid, but wy not

For the description of PTH process, yes , this is a good way, you 
thing is a complicate system, i thing no no, normaly in pro 
production, we have 20 or 24 bath with watter rinc.

These little tank is nice, but also expensive for you, we are here on 
a middle machine to make prototype in pro production.

For the ink electrical conduction, i think this is not the good way 
to obtain Troughs holes, this ink are use also in PCb production, but 
only by screen process to obtain the base for front panel toutch.

This ink are also use to make flexible ribon with bus line, you have 
the same in your inkjet printer.

This ink process use sylver or carbon paste.

I think also MegaUK have arrangement with Bungard and Cadware in Cz

http://www.cadware.cz/cad305e.htm

We can see the same material.

Hwo is the origina l producer, mistake... but Cz have perhaps the 
good price.

I can say, the little photoploter by Cadware are make by Cadware.

But i think also we are in a middel machine, and so expensive for 
Home make PCB, is necessary to make reflexion to obtain good result 
with non expensive machine and process.

For tank in pro production, we use "prolypropilen" plastic material 
and this is assembled with warm air special gun, for 
example, "LEISTER" system, "TRIAC S or PID" + special nozzle. 

Good injoy with PCB.

Patrick







--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Markus Zingg <homebrew-pcb@...> 
wrote:
>
> Patrick,
> 
> I'm in the lucky position that I can get chemistry from ROHM&HAAS 
> through a local board house kind enough to give away small 
quantities 
> (ok, I have to pay for the really expensive stuff, but a lot less 
than 
> at other places). Unfortunately the local ROHM&HAAS supplier is not 
> willing to directly sell to me due to the way too small quantities 
I 
> would take (even if I buy their smallest containers, aparently this 
is 
> too much work for them for the money). Anyways, since I can get it 
> thorugh the board house I don't care too much about that aspect.
> 
> Do I asume correctly that your references to Brighner 'A', 'B', 'R' 
and 
> so on you refer to products from ROHM&HAAS? Is " Tin fluoborate" 
also a 
> product from there?
> 
> As for the film makeing, I'm using an Epson Stylus C62 ink jet 
printer. 
> Unfortunately THIS little print wonder (really, you can't compare 
this 
> with other regular inkjets) is no longer produced. However, I heard 
from 
> people in a german PCB forum that the Cannon Pixma 4500 is in the 
same 
> league and this one is still actively produced and sold. These 
printers 
> produce very high quality results when you print on overhead 
> transparencies from Avery/Zweckform (250x series). One must set the 
> driver to use "glossy quailty photopaper" (or similar). Such film 
is 
> very well suited to be used with photoresist. The only drawback 
here is 
> that if you print big areas in black, the amount of ink used will 
be 
> impressive. In fact, that's the reason why I think that the method 
you 
> presented of using dryfilm on the PCB during thru plating will 
probalby 
> be more expensive for me versus the way I do it now (cause in my 
case 
> most areas of the film don't have to contain ink), but again the 
process 
> seems intersting, and especially the fact of having a higher 
quality 
> finish with the tin plating is tempting. Do you also have a recipe 
to 
> make a lead free thin plating bath?
> 
> In order to position the film, I usually print diagonal 6mm 
diameter 
> rings (inner diameter is 3.1mm) outside of the PCB area (well, I 
always 
> make PCBs as a small pannel which surrounds the real PCB which is 
cut 
> out as the last step) and then I use a home made film puncher to 
> precisely punch 3mm holes. The extra 0.1mm then helps me to very 
very 
> precisely alling the film on the puncher using my eitght times 
> magnifying head googles. I also drill 3mm holes through the whole 
PCB 
> stack (in case of makeing multilayers) using a small CNC drill as 
one of 
> the very first steps of the PCB makeing process. Since the exposer 
unit 
> is also having holes in the glass at those positions, I can simply 
stick 
> the film over the laminated base material and then expose. This way 
I 
> get a precision good enough for the process. It's true though that 
one 
> must work very carefully here.
> 
> Your statement " The diazo film exist also from other fabricator, 
DUPONT 
> and an other in Zwitserland." Seems intersting to me. Could it be 
that 
> you meant "Switzerland"? If so, I would be interested to hear the 
name 
> of this firm.
> 
> Markus
> 
> tsescrl schrieb:
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > Thanks for beer, here in Belgium we love beer...
> >
> > You pupose a transparent spray for paper, wy not.
> >
> > But, for photoresist, is necesary you expose with strong UV due 
to 20
> > microns higth of the photoresist ==> is also necesary you have a 
very
> > hard black film on pads and track normaly density 3 or 4.
> >
> > But in industy, we d'ont use the black and transparent film, this
> > film is the original film come from a lazer photoplotter.
> >
> > We make a copy of the original film for 2 raison.
> >
> > 1, If we have a production problem ( foot on film, scratch...) we
> > have a good original to make a new copy.
> >
> > But an other very important raison:
> >
> > With the black and transparent film, you d'ont see correctly to
> > adjust your film and center the holes in the center of your pads.
> >
> > We make a copy on a diazo amber film.
> >
> > This film have an orange or amber transparent color on pads and
> > tracks, he stop very strong the UV, and you can see the hole to
> > adjust and register the pad in hole center.
> >
> > This film is so simple to make, this film is an autopositive 
process,
> > exposition with UV from your exposur unit, and developpement in 
vapor
> > amonia, the same for architechtural plant.
> >
> > We use A film from "ROHM&HAAS" type "ULTRAYIELD 200 or 300 or 310"
> > The problem for you is to obtain smal quatity, only box with 100 
film.
> >
> > But also the problem for you is to obtain a film have the correct
> > dimmension, if you drill with a little CNC, you are correct with 
the
> > coordinate "X" and "Y", bur your image have a deformation due to
> > lazer cook.
> >
> > But, for little dimension PCB perhaps you d'ont see this 
deformation.
> >
> > I have a friend hi make a transparent on a inkjet printer, EPSON, 
and
> > in A3, he have no deformation, this printer have 2 position scale 
for
> > the 2 axes, and i am very impresioned with the precision if i see 
the
> > difference of price of my photoploter and this little non 
expensive
> > printer...
> >
> > After print on the transparent, we make a copy on diazofilm, and 
no
> > problem to expose with UV on dry film.
> >
> > For dry film, we use "LAMINAR 5038" form "ROHM&HAAS"
> >
> > The diazo film exist also from other fabricator, DUPONT and an 
other
> > in Zwitserland.
> >
> > Also with a friend, we make test with direct inkjet printing on 
the
> > PCB plate after métalisation with special ink.
> >
> > He is a group on YAHOO, and different site with this techinque.
> >
> > 
http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2006/08/how_to_direct_to_pcb_ink_jet_
 
> > 
<http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2006/08/how_to_direct_to_pcb_ink_jet
_>
> > r.html
> >
> > 
http://techref.massmind.org/techref/pcb/etch/directinkjetresist.htm 
> > 
<http://techref.massmind.org/techref/pcb/etch/directinkjetresist.htm>
> >
> > I have a big interest for this procedure for ptototype, because, 
no
> > film, no copy, no dry film, no developement.
> >
> > For direct inkjet image for simple face and etch with Fe3cl, non
> > problem, the problem is for make a registration if i drill before
> > inkjet printing, we see also in the futur if the special ink is
> > resistant in copper and tin-lead electolitic bath.
> >
> > We see, and make information to you in a few week.
> >
> > For chemical trouhg holes line, from 10 year ago, i have make 
mysef
> > the bath, but new procces are come on the market, and now we use a
> > complete chemical line from "ROHM&HAAS" this proces is 
the "CRIMSON
> > LINE" before, the name of this company is "SHIPLEY" he have good
> > representation in europe and in USA.
> > But hi exist also an other system from "MACK DERMIT" this is
> > the "BLACK HOLE".
> > >From Bungard, i d'ont now the origin of the chemical, Bungard is 
not
> > a fabricator of chemical, perhaps he make little bottle 
conditionment
> > for you, i think this is an good idea for your market.
> >
> > For copper and Tin or Tin-lead electro deposition, i make myself,
> > this 2 bath are very stable, 8 or 10 years time life, no problem.
> >
> > Just i buy the brigtner to "ROHM&HAAS" the brigtner is so 
difficult
> > to make, this is a special preparation of "PEPTONE", hi come of
> > muscle of animal, yes yes.
> >
> > Other:
> >
> > After etching with the process i have decribe, your Tin or tin-
lead
> > is MAT, to obtain glossy, is necesary to make a fusion with higt
> > température oil, and heat gun, not automobile oil...but special 
oil,
> > and this oil is clean after with watter and little of "DEFT" 
or "PER"
> > or other liquid spons, the same use your wife to clean after
> > heat...this oil is watter soluble.
> >
> > To make start up solution for copper electro plating:
> > For 100 litres:
> >
> > Demineralised watter : 54.00 liter
> > Sulfurik acid : 11.00 liter
> > Liquid copper sulfate: 29.00 liter
> > Brigtner type M : 4.00 litre
> > Brigtner type B : 0.25 litre
> > Brigtner type L : 0.25 litre
> > Ad the rest with demineralised watter.
> > Attention with Sulfiric acid, only acid in watter and not inverse
> > watter in acid = explosion, very very dangerous!!!use glove and 
brill.
> > Add Sulfiric acid very very slowly, because you have big 
temperature
> > elevation
> > Liquid copper sulfate is a 68.7 gr/litre special electro.
> >
> > To make Tin-Lead start up solution electro plating:
> > For 100 litres:
> >
> > Demineralised watter : 50.00 litres
> > Fluoborik acid at 50% : 30.00 litres
> > Borick acid : 1.5 Kg disolved in warm watter before
> > Tin fluoborate at 50% : 6.75 litres
> > Lead fluoborate at 50% : 2.25 litres
> > Brigtner A : 1.75 litre
> > Brigtner B : 1.75 litre
> > Brigtner R : 1.00 litre
> > Complete with demineralised watter.
> > Put a back with 5 kilos of borick acid in a coin of thank 
permanently
> >
> > Good amusement
> >
> > Patrick
> >
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
> > <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>, "dandumit" <dandumit@> 
wrote:
> > >
> > > Patrick and Markus, THANK YOU !
> > > I am following this group for more than one year but your 
revealings
> > > shared here it is the first professional information that I have
> > > found it here. Are indeed some ingenious hacks in this group 
too but
> > > you two deserve a prize. I would like you to have some beers on 
my
> > > account or a bottle of wine.
> > >
> > > Continuing on trough hole plating :
> > > 1. Patrick - your solution it is very ingenious to have more 
simple
> > > holes plated and ready etched. I have understood that in this
> > process
> > > you use the film positive (tracks and pads are black) and the
> > > photoresist negative. This spray :
> > > http://www.crceurope.com/csp/web/ProdDisp.csp? 
> > <http://www.crceurope.com/csp/web/ProdDisp.csp?>
> > lng=3&country=ALL&product=TRANSPARANT%2021&business=ELECTRONIC
> > > Makes a regular printer paper transparent to UV light. Could you
> > > please tell us what could be used to replace it ? (of course a
> > cheaper
> > > version). This way a regular laser print could be used as a 
film !
> > >
> > > Patrick could you also give us some recipes some of baths ? Did 
you
> > > prepared at your work or you have bought them from a specialized
> > company ?
> > >
> > > 2. Suske - could you share with us from where do you plan to 
buy the
> > > chemicals for baths ?
> > >
> > > Kind Regards,
> > > Daniel
> > >
> >
> >
>