Homebrew PCBs

Hi,

I'm about to attempt my first homemade pcb after many years of using
breadboards and veroboard for my electronics tinkering!

I've recently joined the group and have been avidly reading the recent
posts and the archives. I do however have a few questions...

Many of the posts I've read advise against the use of an iron and
recommend a laminator instead. Because of this I went looking for a
suitable model. It struck me that many of the laminators for sale were
quoting maximum thicknesses of 250 micron (1/4 mm), this doesn't seem
nearly enough capacity, am I missing something?

Also I intend buying a laser printer. The HP laserjet 1022 is a budget
model that is reputed to have high quality output. Would this be a
reasonable starting place or should I look elsewhere.

Sorry for the dumb questions but I really am at the bottom of this
learning curve so any help would be welcome..

Regards,

Andy.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "andrew566020" 
<andy.jrhall@b...> wrote:
>
> Hi,
> 
> I'm about to attempt my first homemade pcb after many years of using
> breadboards and veroboard for my electronics tinkering!
> [snip]

Welcome to the fun.  I swore off veroboard in a fit of anger and have 
never looked back.

With respect to a laminator, I started with an iron and to be honest 
I have not bothered to 'graduate'.  I suspect that a laminator is 
superior for larger boards but my boards are less than 50mm x 50mm.  
In the past posts and links you will find information on how to 
modify a laminator, by this you can open up that gap to fit a board.

Regarding the printer I have a dodgy old laserjet 6L which suits me 
fine, again I have heard that certain printer/paper combinations are 
more important.  Remember that the laser printer at work is always a 
good start.  Take a look at the group's database link on yahoo and 
there is info about paper and printers.

The first thing you will have to do is find the best paper for 
yourself.  This will depend on what country you are in.  It seems 
that us Australians have been blessed with the best paper in that I 
don't even need to soak the stuff off the board, it just peels off.

Make up a test pattern with lots of thin and thick traces and 
practice your technique.  Don't bother about etching until the trace 
looks good.  You can always clean the toner off with some turpentine.

I find that a layer from top to bottom: pcb,toner paper, two sheets 
of toilet paper, printer paper, iron.  Works for me, the two bits of 
toilet paper are there to account for any bumps in the board or the 
iron.  I press hard for 30 seconds , turn the iron 90 degrees 30 more 
seconds...  For a single sided board I do this for 2 minutes.  A 
double sided each side gets 90 seconds.

Another thing you should consider in making your own boards is moving 
to surface mount components.  It is far easier than I thought it 
would be and drilling all the holes will quickly get anoying.

Hope this helps

Mike

Hi, 

If its any help, I can only relate what I do.

I do a dozen or so 8" x 5.5" boards a week and I still use an Iron..
the same one my wife uses to do the ironing.
(more important toys to buy !)

I use an HP 1010 laser at 600 dpi to print on press-n-peel sheets
it works a treat... --- 

I clean the boards with 600 wet and dry, rinse and dry them

Then iron on (middle steam heat, without the heat)
with a single sheet of ordinary white paper between the iron and 
press-n-peel.. I iron for about 1.5 minutes

Then quench under the tap and peel the sheet off

The process work fine for the boards I do, I get 98% success rate
and I'm not going to mess with a process that works !

The biggest pain was hand drilling the holes..
if you are doing Fibreglass, you need to buy carbide bits

I use mostly paper boards but still use carbide bits, they last 10's 
of times longer.

Chris

In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "andrew566020" <andy.jrhall@b...> 
wrote:
>
> Hi,
> 
> I'm about to attempt my first homemade pcb after many years of 
using
> breadboards and veroboard for my electronics tinkering!
> 
> I've recently joined the group and have been avidly reading the 
recent
> posts and the archives. I do however have a few questions...
> 
> Many of the posts I've read advise against the use of an iron and
> recommend a laminator instead. Because of this I went looking for a
> suitable model. It struck me that many of the laminators for sale 
were
> quoting maximum thicknesses of 250 micron (1/4 mm), this doesn't 
seem
> nearly enough capacity, am I missing something?
> 
> Also I intend buying a laser printer. The HP laserjet 1022 is a 
budget

> model that is reputed to have high quality output. Would this be a
> reasonable starting place or should I look elsewhere.
> 
> Sorry for the dumb questions but I really am at the bottom of this
> learning curve so any help would be welcome..
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Andy.
>

> 
> Welcome to the fun.  I swore off veroboard in a fit of anger and have 
> never looked back.
> 
<SNIP>

Hi Mike,

Thanks for taking the time to help me out! I see from your response
that laminators probably need to be modified before they can be used.
I guess that answers my question about the material thicknesses.

It sounds like you are having good results with your iron and you've
certainly given me the confidence to have a go myself. I guess I was a
bit nervous about using an iron with the press n peel I bought as it's
a little expensive to waste. While I'm experimenting I guess I could
have a go with some ink jet paper as well, it's cheap to try after all.

Surface mount components are something I hadn't considered using. I
guess making pcbs creates many new possibilities.

Best wishes and many thanks,

Andy.

Hi Chris,

Thanks for helping with my question. That's two votes for using an
iron. Mike also responded saying he has success with the 'iron
method'. I guess that I'll do some experimentation for myself and see
how I get on.

Do you move the iron around (as if ironing a shirt) or do you apply
heat and pressure in one place for a while then lift and move the iron
somewhere else?

Best wishes and thanks,

Andy.


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@...m, "Chris Horne" <chris@s...> wrote:

>
> Hi, 
> 
> If its any help, I can only relate what I do.
> 
> I do a dozen or so 8" x 5.5" boards a week and I still use an Iron..
> the same one my wife uses to do the ironing.
> (more important toys to buy !)
> 
> I use an HP 1010 laser at 600 dpi to print on press-n-peel sheets
> it works a treat... --- 
> 
> I clean the boards with 600 wet and dry, rinse and dry them
> 
> Then iron on (middle steam heat, without the heat)
> with a single sheet of ordinary white paper between the iron and 
> press-n-peel.. I iron for about 1.5 minutes
> 
> Then quench under the tap and peel the sheet off
> 
> The process work fine for the boards I do, I get 98% success rate
> and I'm not going to mess with a process that works !
> 
> The biggest pain was hand drilling the holes..
> if you are doing Fibreglass, you need to buy carbide bits
> 
> I use mostly paper boards but still use carbide bits, they last 10's 
> of times longer.
> 
> Chris
> 
> In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "andrew566020" <andy.jrhall@b...> 
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> > 
> > I'm about to attempt my first homemade pcb after many years of 
> using
> > breadboards and veroboard for my electronics tinkering!
> > 
> > I've recently joined the group and have been avidly reading the 
> recent
> > posts and the archives. I do however have a few questions...
> > 
> > Many of the posts I've read advise against the use of an iron and
> > recommend a laminator instead. Because of this I went looking for a
> > suitable model. It struck me that many of the laminators for sale 
> were
> > quoting maximum thicknesses of 250 micron (1/4 mm), this doesn't 
> seem
> > nearly enough capacity, am I missing something?
> > 
> > Also I intend buying a laser printer. The HP laserjet 1022 is a 
> budget
> > model that is reputed to have high quality output. Would this be a
> > reasonable starting place or should I look elsewhere.
> > 
> > Sorry for the dumb questions but I really am at the bottom of this
> > learning curve so any help would be welcome..
> > 
> > Regards,
> > 
> > Andy.
> >
>

On Sat, 29 Oct 2005 01:50:48 +0200, andrew566020  
<andy.jrhall@...> wrote:

>
> Many of the posts I've read advise against the use of an iron and
> recommend a laminator instead. Because of this I went looking for a
> suitable model. It struck me that many of the laminators for sale were
> quoting maximum thicknesses of 250 micron (1/4 mm), this doesn't seem
> nearly enough capacity, am I missing something?


you need to modify most. You can also use a fuser from a dead  
printer/copier, but you might need to modify that too.
Usually it's only a matter of removing some spacer or filing something or  
adding something, should not be a problem for anyone with basic mechanical  
skills. If you are one of those people that can't even assemble flatpack  
furniture (i do believe they only exist on TV, nobody can really be that  
stupid), get a laminator that accepts boards already (doesn't pulsar sell  
one??).

ST

Yes, Pulsar sells a laminator, but won't be shipping new orders until 11/7. 
I was just cruising their site last evening. I am also a newbie, and looking 
to get started. In general, are their transfer products the ones to use? Is 
their package deal a good price? $100US for the starter kit seems not 
unreasonable; $50 for the kit without the laminator.

I also read their recommendation to use 1/2 oz cladding, rather than 1 oz. 
They make a pretty compelling argument, but I'm somewhat partial to the 1oz 
FR4 boards I've been using (commercial boards). Will I have problems holding 
under 10 mil separation with the 1 oz?

Their 1-minute sponging technique sounds almost too good to be true. Is 
anyone having success with that? (There's a lot of mention here of tanks, 
aerators, and heaters.) I would just try it and see, but as I'm totally new, 
I would very much like my first board to be a brain-dead simple success. 
(Seeing as I'm new and don't have tanks and things, there doesn't seem to be 
much other choice. :) Are good results with 10 mil traces and spacing 
possible, even if not likely, on the first try?

Also, I notice that RadioShack's website doesn't know anything about "ferric 
chloride", or "pcb etch". You'll find the MSDS for their part number 
26-1535, but it does look like RS now only panders to cellphones, ipods, and 
TV wiring.

One last question: which is worse? singleside SMT with some air wires, or 
double side with a bunch of drilling for vias and through-holes?


----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Stefan Trethan" <stefan_trethan@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> get a laminator that accepts boards already (doesn't pulsar sell
> one??).

Hi Stefan,


Thanks for the reply,

I think I probably could do the necessary modifications but several
responses to my question have indicated that an iron is ok for smaller
boards. I think I might try an iron first then move up to laminator as
confidence/funds permit.

Regards,


Andy Hall

> you need to modify most. You can also use a fuser from a dead  
> printer/copier, but you might need to modify that too.
> Usually it's only a matter of removing some spacer or filing
something > 
> ST
>

NO!  NO! NO!

DO NOT MOVE THE IRON!  Be very careful and only apply presure 
downwards.  Then if you have to move it, pick it straight up and 
move to new location, then straight down again. Any sideways 
movement while pressing will cause smears.

I have also been taking very small pieces of tape and taping the 
paper to the PCB to help keep it where I want it while pressing.

Chris



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "andrew566020" 
<andy.jrhall@b...> wrote:
>
> Hi Chris,
> 
> Thanks for helping with my question. That's two votes for using an
> iron. Mike also responded saying he has success with the 'iron
> method'. I guess that I'll do some experimentation for myself and 
see
> how I get on.
> 
> Do you move the iron around (as if ironing a shirt) or do you apply
> heat and pressure in one place for a while then lift and move the 
iron
> somewhere else?
> 
> Best wishes and thanks,
> 
> Andy.
> 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Horne" <chris@s...> 
wrote:
> >
> > Hi, 
> > 
> > If its any help, I can only relate what I do.
> > 
> > I do a dozen or so 8" x 5.5" boards a week and I still use an 
Iron..
> > the same one my wife uses to do the ironing.
> > (more important toys to buy !)
> > 
> > I use an HP 1010 laser at 600 dpi to print on press-n-peel sheets
> > it works a treat... --- 
> > 
> > I clean the boards with 600 wet and dry, rinse and dry them
> > 
> > Then iron on (middle steam heat, without the heat)
> > with a single sheet of ordinary white paper between the iron and 
> > press-n-peel.. I iron for about 1.5 minutes
> > 
> > Then quench under the tap and peel the sheet off
> > 
> > The process work fine for the boards I do, I get 98% success rate
> > and I'm not going to mess with a process that works !
> > 
> > The biggest pain was hand drilling the holes..
> > if you are doing Fibreglass, you need to buy carbide bits
> > 
> > I use mostly paper boards but still use carbide bits, they last 
10's 
> > of times longer.
> > 
> > Chris
> > 
> > In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "andrew566020" 
<andy.jrhall@b...> 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > > 
> > > I'm about to attempt my first homemade pcb after many years of 
> > using
> > > breadboards and veroboard for my electronics tinkering!
> > > 
> > > I've recently joined the group and have been avidly reading 
the 
> > recent
> > > posts and the archives. I do however have a few questions...
> > > 
> > > Many of the posts I've read advise against the use of an iron 
and
> > > recommend a laminator instead. Because of this I went looking 
for a
> > > suitable model. It struck me that many of the laminators for 
sale 
> > were
> > > quoting maximum thicknesses of 250 micron (1/4 mm), this 
doesn't 
> > seem
> > > nearly enough capacity, am I missing something?
> > > 
> > > Also I intend buying a laser printer. The HP laserjet 1022 is 
a 
> > budget
> > > model that is reputed to have high quality output. Would this 
be a
> > > reasonable starting place or should I look elsewhere.
> > > 
> > > Sorry for the dumb questions but I really am at the bottom of 
this

> > > learning curve so any help would be welcome..
> > > 
> > > Regards,
> > > 
> > > Andy.
> > >
> >
>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "lcdpublishing"
<lcdpublishing@y...> wrote:
>
> NO!  NO! NO!
> 
> DO NOT MOVE THE IRON!  Be very careful and only apply presure 

I guess that's a NO! then :)

Many thanks,

Andy.

>Also, I notice that RadioShack's website doesn't know anything about "ferric 
>chloride", or "pcb etch". You'll find the MSDS for their part number 
>26-1535, but it does look like RS now only panders to cellphones, ipods, and 
>TV wiring.
>
>  
>
Radio Shack needs to change their name to " The Telephone Booth".  They 
are systematically getting out of the hobbiest/experimenter/parts 
business in favor of slick consumer goods.

Norm

On Sat, 29 Oct 2005 13:02:43 +0200, andrew566020  
<andy.jrhall@...> wrote:

> Hi Chris,
> Thanks for helping with my question. That's two votes for using an
> iron. Mike also responded saying he has success with the 'iron
> method'. I guess that I'll do some experimentation for myself and see
> how I get on.
> Do you move the iron around (as if ironing a shirt) or do you apply
> heat and pressure in one place for a while then lift and move the iron
> somewhere else?
> Best wishes and thanks,
> Andy.


You can certainly try with the iron first, it is usually free to use if  
you wait until the owner is out of the house.

I use the iron for maybe 5 boards, at first it was OK, but then i just  
couldn't get good results any more. Use the fuser ever since and never  
looked back.

ST

On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 20:08:39 +0100, Norm Stewart <normstewart@...>  
wrote:

>
> Radio Shack needs to change their name to " The Telephone Booth".  They
> are systematically getting out of the hobbiest/experimenter/parts
> business in favor of slick consumer goods.
> Norm


Ask them if 500 milliamps is the same as 5 amps.
But plan in some time, they will need a piece of paper, a pencil, and some  
headscratching to conclude in a positive answer.

But don't worry, while we don't have any shacks here the parts stores are  
no better. Don't sell phones but don't sell no parts neither. I'm surely  
better stocked than some of them.

ST

Norm Stewart wrote:

>>Also, I notice that RadioShack's website doesn't know anything about "ferric 
>>chloride", or "pcb etch". You'll find the MSDS for their part number 
>>26-1535, but it does look like RS now only panders to cellphones, ipods, and 
>>TV wiring.
>>
>>
>>    
>>
>Radio Shack needs to change their name to " The Telephone Booth".  They 
>are systematically getting out of the hobbiest/experimenter/parts 
>business in favor of slick consumer goods.
>
>Norm
>  
>

  They had major clearances and relaunch of target market this month, no 
doubt going to more profitiable items than hobbiest stuff.  Had tons of 
good clearance deals that even the employees didn't know the new prices 
too, should have seen the look on the guys face when my last of the $129 
DVI cables rang up for only $12, not bad for high quality local.

Alan

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Young" <mikewhy@s...> wrote:
>
>
[snip]
> 
> One last question: which is worse? singleside SMT with some air 
wires, or 
> double side with a bunch of drilling for vias and through-holes?
> 

Anything that cuts down on drilling is good by me.  I do double sided 
smt with some vias made with a bit of copper wire if space is tight.  
If you are feeling cheeky you could just put big pads in and solder 
your jumpers to them without the hole.  

In my opinion drilling is the worst bit of diy as it is the one job 
that gains no/minimal efficiency the more boards you make.  Everything 
else like etching and cleaning gets more efficient if you do batches of 
boards.

Additionally I have found that double sided smt is easier to design 
that double sided through hole as you are not forever dodging pads.

Mike

mikegw20 wrote:

>Anything that cuts down on drilling is good by me.  I do double sided 
>smt with some vias made with a bit of copper wire if space is tight.  
>If you are feeling cheeky you could just put big pads in and solder 
>your jumpers to them without the hole.  
>
>In my opinion drilling is the worst bit of diy as it is the one job 
>that gains no/minimal efficiency the more boards you make.  Everything 
>else like etching and cleaning gets more efficient if you do batches of 
>boards.
>
>Additionally I have found that double sided smt is easier to design 
>that double sided through hole as you are not forever dodging pads.
>
>Mike
>  
>
  Second on everything said, it is the way to go.  You can do a whole 
lot even just single sided SMT with less jumpers than you'd think once 
you get used to that kind of layout..  When you need double sided, take 
connections out to the edge of the board above one another, and just 
solder a wire around the edge of the board, no drilling involved.  Need 
a bus, just take 8 or 10 out over the other 8 or 10. and have an extra 
piece with the 8 or 10 parallel tracks.  Cut straight along that edge, 
hold up your extra piece, and run a solder ball down both sides to make 
the top to bottom connection.  Easier than doing 1 or 2 seperate vias.  
Or space at .1", and use header pins or similar for the top to bottom 
join.  Lots more ways to do many connections across the edges with no 
drilling once you start doing it a bit more too. 

  And not going through hole does help a great deal.  I've redone most 
of the Eagle TTL chips as SMT pads, and just solder them to the top of 
the board.  Adds a lot to your useable space when you can route whatever 
you need on the other side without pin interference.  Almost no parts 
really need to go through the board for normal use.  Still nice to have 
a driller but I use it more for mechanical stuff than drilling boards now.

Alan

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Alan King" <alan@...>
>  And not going through hole does help a great deal.  I've redone most
> of the Eagle TTL chips as SMT pads, and just solder them to the top of
> the board.

Now there's an idea. Can you email me your part lib? Just the ref-packages, 
or wherever you put the package definition will do it.

I do move the iron, butonly when the board is too big to just leave 
it in one spot...

The way I do this is tolay a sheet of plain white paper over the 
press-n-peel  

Then start by holding the iron in one spot with my right habd.

I then push down on the sheet of paper (where it is not over the 
board) which seems to lock everything in place..

I then move the iron round slowly, keeping my pressureon the paper..

I think it'simportant to have the paper when moving the iron, it 
stops the tranfer sliding on the board.

Also, the times have to be increased proportionally to compensate

I do allmy boards this way, I don't have any small enough to do with 
the iron stationary.

Cheers

Chris

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "andrew566020" 
<andy.jrhall@b...> wrote:
>
> Hi Chris,
> 
> Thanks for helping with my question. That's two votes for using an
> iron. Mike also responded saying he has success with the 'iron
> method'. I guess that I'll do some experimentation for myself and 
see
> how I get on.
> 
> Do you move the iron around (as if ironing a shirt) or do you apply
> heat and pressure in one place for a while then lift and move the 
iron
> somewhere else?
> 
> Best wishes and thanks,
> 
> Andy.
> 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Horne" <chris@s...> 
wrote:
> >
> > Hi, 
> > 
> > If its any help, I can only relate what I do.
> > 
> > I do a dozen or so 8" x 5.5" boards a week and I still use an 
Iron..
> > the same one my wife uses to do the ironing.
> > (more important toys to buy !)
> > 
> > I use an HP 1010 laser at 600 dpi to print on press-n-peel sheets
> > it works a treat... --- 
> > 
> > I clean the boards with 600 wet and dry, rinse and dry them
> > 
> > Then iron on (middle steam heat, without the heat)
> > with a single sheet of ordinary white paper between the iron and 
> > press-n-peel.. I iron for about 1.5 minutes
> > 
> > Then quench under the tap and peel the sheet off
> > 
> > The process work fine for the boards I do, I get 98% success rate
> > and I'm not going to mess with a process that works !
> > 
> > The biggest pain was hand drilling the holes..
> > if you are doing Fibreglass, you need to buy carbide bits
> > 
> > I use mostly paper boards but still use carbide bits, they last 
10's 
> > of times longer.
> > 
> > Chris
> > 
> > In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "andrew566020" 
<andy.jrhall@b...> 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > > 
> > > I'm about to attempt my first homemade pcb after many years of 
> > using
> > > breadboards and veroboard for my electronics tinkering!
> > > 
> > > I've recently joined the group and have been avidly reading 
the 
> > recent
> > > posts and the archives. I do however have a few questions...
> > > 
> > > Many of the posts I've read advise against the use of an iron 
and
> > > recommend a laminator instead. Because of this I went looking 
for a
> > > suitable model. It struck me that many of the laminators for 
sale 
> > were
> > > quoting maximum thicknesses of 250 micron (1/4 mm), this 
doesn't 
> > seem
> > > nearly enough capacity, am I missing something?
> > > 
> > > Also I intend buying a laser printer. The HP laserjet 1022 is 
a 
> > budget
> > > model that is reputed to have high quality output. Would this 
be a
> > > reasonable starting place or should I look elsewhere.
> > > 
> > > Sorry for the dumb questions but I really am at the bottom of 
this

> > > learning curve so any help would be welcome..
> > > 
> > > Regards,
> > > 
> > > Andy.
> > >
> >
>

On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 03:17:32 +0100, Alan King <alan@...> wrote:

>
>>
>> Additionally I have found that double sided smt is easier to design
>> that double sided through hole as you are not forever dodging pads.
>>
>> Mike


What i like to do is single sided mixed population.
I put connectors and some ICs on top, and passives, transistors, and some  
small ICs on the bottom.
This can result in a very tight design, with no vias. I don't think SMD  
only single sided can be made that small.

Also, i want to have connectors and stuff with leads, so they are well  
secured to the board.

It gives you the opportunity to put labeling on the top side, not so much  
for components, but for pinouts and stuff like that. With all the passive  
"underbrush" on the bottom there's usually enough space.

SMD definitely must not be ignored for homebrew PCBs, it has too many  
advantages. But for me SMD only would in many cases not be very practical.

ST

Look at the Pulsar.gs site.  I use their products for my occasional
boards and never have a failure.  I bought the GBC laminator locally.
 Their sponge etching method works great.



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "andrew566020"
<andy.jrhall@b...> wrote:

>
> Hi,
> 
> I'm about to attempt my first homemade pcb after many years of using
> breadboards and veroboard for my electronics tinkering!
> 
> I've recently joined the group and have been avidly reading the recent
> posts and the archives. I do however have a few questions...
> 
> Many of the posts I've read advise against the use of an iron and
> recommend a laminator instead. Because of this I went looking for a
> suitable model. It struck me that many of the laminators for sale were
> quoting maximum thicknesses of 250 micron (1/4 mm), this doesn't seem
> nearly enough capacity, am I missing something?
> 
> Also I intend buying a laser printer. The HP laserjet 1022 is a budget
> model that is reputed to have high quality output. Would this be a
> reasonable starting place or should I look elsewhere.
> 
> Sorry for the dumb questions but I really am at the bottom of this
> learning curve so any help would be welcome..
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Andy.
>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Horne" <chris@s...> wrote:
>
> I do move the iron, butonly when the board is too big to just leave 
> it in one spot...
> 
> The way I do this is tolay a sheet of plain white paper over the 
<SNIP>


Hi Chris,


So it is safe to move the iron as long as something stops the transfer
film from moving.

Great stuff, I'll give it a try!

Many thanks,


Andy.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "bob_ledoux" <bobledoux@p...> wrote:
>
> Look at the Pulsar.gs site.  I use their products for my occasional
> boards and never have a failure.  I bought the GBC laminator locally.
<SNIP>

Hi Bob,

I have already seen the site. It looks very good with lots of good
info. I now have access to a GBC 40P laminator which presumably will
require some modification before it can be used. Did you modify your
laminator? If so, is it difficult?

Cheers,

Andy.

Stefan Trethan wrote:

>On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 03:17:32 +0100, Alan King <alan@...> wrote:
>
>  
>
>>>Additionally I have found that double sided smt is easier to design
>>>that double sided through hole as you are not forever dodging pads.
>>>
>>>Mike
>>>      
>>>
>
>
>What i like to do is single sided mixed population.
>I put connectors and some ICs on top, and passives, transistors, and some  
>small ICs on the bottom.
>This can result in a very tight design, with no vias. I don't think SMD  
>only single sided can be made that small.
>
>Also, i want to have connectors and stuff with leads, so they are well  
>secured to the board.
>
>  
>

   Eagle also has some DB style connector layouts that are for board 
edges, with board fitting between the two pin rows on the back of the 
connector, 1/2 pins on top and 1/2 pins on bottom.  Is a very good, 
secure method still with no holes, and you can do similar with 2 row pin 
headers etc sticking out from edge.  Between that, top mounting dip 
style chips, and wrapping traces over the edges, I hardly ever drill a 
hole in anything now, no pins as well as vias.  Just so much easier to 
not have to get out the drill and have dust, even with CNC..  Even when 
I have boards made now, I'm starting to top mount the DIPs and do edge 
type connectors, it just makes things a bit easier.

Alan

On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 21:12:16 +0100, Alan King <alan@...> wrote:

>
>   Eagle also has some DB style connector layouts that are for board
> edges, with board fitting between the two pin rows on the back of the
> connector, 1/2 pins on top and 1/2 pins on bottom.  Is a very good,
> secure method still with no holes, and you can do similar with 2 row pin
> headers etc sticking out from edge.  Between that, top mounting dip
> style chips, and wrapping traces over the edges, I hardly ever drill a
> hole in anything now, no pins as well as vias.  Just so much easier to
> not have to get out the drill and have dust, even with CNC..  Even when
> I have boards made now, I'm starting to top mount the DIPs and do edge
> type connectors, it just makes things a bit easier.
> Alan


While i also use the edge-on D solder cup connectors they still give you  
some of the signals up top and some one the bottom layer, kind of a little  
drawback. Bending traces over the edge is a interesting idea, might just  
try that.

Drilling is nasty, yes, but not _that_ bad. As long as i don't have to  
drill hundreds of holes that's ok with me.

ST

Stefan Trethan wrote:

>On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 21:12:16 +0100, Alan King <alan@...> wrote:
>
>  
>
>>  Eagle also has some DB style connector layouts that are for board
>>edges, with board fitting between the two pin rows on the back of the
>>connector, 1/2 pins on top and 1/2 pins on bottom.  Is a very good,
>>secure method still with no holes, and you can do similar with 2 row pin
>>headers etc sticking out from edge.  Between that, top mounting dip
>>style chips, and wrapping traces over the edges, I hardly ever drill a
>>hole in anything now, no pins as well as vias.  Just so much easier to
>>not have to get out the drill and have dust, even with CNC..  Even when
>>I have boards made now, I'm starting to top mount the DIPs and do edge
>>type connectors, it just makes things a bit easier.
>>Alan
>>    
>>
>
>
>While i also use the edge-on D solder cup connectors they still give you  
>some of the signals up top and some one the bottom layer, kind of a little  
>drawback. Bending traces over the edge is a interesting idea, might just  
>try that.
>
>  
>
  Yep they are not perfect, but fortunately for LPT and serial port most 
of the important signals are on top, usually only 2 or 3 wires the 
bottom.  At first I did the bending literally, with wires soldered on 
one side and bent to the other.  Much faster to just use header pins or 
something else straight, run solder down the pins/traces, and make 
fillets, so definitely start from there.  There used to be lots of 
commercial equipment made this way, BMW stereos had boards soldered on 
edge to other boards like this, with many traces making the 90 degree 
solder connection.  Often needs a resolder after even a small impact 
like a deer or something, because of the inertial effects breaking some 
joints.


>Drilling is nasty, yes, but not _that_ bad. As long as i don't have to  
>drill hundreds of holes that's ok with me.
>
>  
>

  Oh yes, as always minimize work, but still stay flexible when doing it 
to take best advantage.  Even though it's very good to avoid as much as 
possible, a via hole here and there is still sometimes better than 
trying to get every last signal to an edge of the board.  But once 
starting with the idea in mind, I can usually get it to only needing a 
jumper here and there, and just wire a few top to bottom instead of 
getting the drill out.

Alan