Homebrew PCBs

>  Since Volkan's inkjet announcement I'm
>pretty sure EDM ing PCBs is a thing of the past in any event.
>
>Curt Richards

No, is NOT.
Using a CNC to EDM mill is better, because you can use the same CNC, 
with the PCB in
position, to drill it too.

Think about precision drilling in complex boards.
Using the inkjet printing you have to drill it manually unless you 
find a solution to position
the resulted PCB under the CNC drill, which is, almost, impossible.

Cristian

>Think about precision drilling in complex boards.
>Using the inkjet printing you have to drill it manually unless you 
>find a solution to position
>the resulted PCB under the CNC drill, which is, almost, impossible.
>
>  
>

  No harder than aligning to drill a toner transfer board after etching, 
which isn't that difficult..  You just align to two holes on opposite 
corners and you're done.

  Why drill anyway?  Surface mount your dips and everything else.  I 
have a driller, and still it's sit around unused for a long time.  It's 
simply better to advance how you lay out the boards to where you rarely 
even need a hole, smt pads for dips are easy to lay out.  You don't 
actually have to have holes through most boards at all, things work just 
fine with the dip leads not going through holes etc.

Alan

Drilling isn't a problem with the right software. As long as the board 
comes out accurately to size, alignment isn't much of a problem.

All I do is find the positions of two diagonally opposite pads by 
visually aligning the drill with the pads. I then enter those 
coordinates into my software <http://www.sheetcam.com/> and it 
automatically shifts/rotates the drawing to match. As long as your 
visual alignment is reasonably accurate the results are excellent. As an 
experiment I deliberately stuck a board on the machine 45 degrees out of 
line. It made no visible difference to the final result.

Les


Cristian wrote:

> No, is NOT.
> Using a CNC to EDM mill is better, because you can use the same CNC, 
> with the PCB in
> position, to drill it too.
>
> Think about precision drilling in complex boards.
> Using the inkjet printing you have to drill it manually unless you 
> find a solution to position
> the resulted PCB under the CNC drill, which is, almost, impossible.
>
> Cristian  
>

> Alan wrote:
> <snip>
> Why drill anyway?

Even if I am doing a board with only SM
components I often have too drill many
holes (vias).  As soon as things get
much more complex than some kind of
oscillator flashing some leds - you
need (or should) go 2 sided.

As more and more chips are comming out
in only leadless packages with a GND
bump underneath - we have no choice in
at least going 2 layer for our hobby
stuff.

This of course is straying away from
the original question of "why EDM".
You wont be able to EDM and drill holes
at the same time if you are going to be
plating through anyhoes.

GOD there is another thing on my list
"to do"... a plating through system.

I will never rest :(


BTW - I have no objections to drilling
boards by hand anyways.  So I am not
the best qualified to join in any
debates about how to avoid doing them.

I do think my attitude to hole drilling
changed when I got a Sakai MDH-1 drill
press - if anyone is looking for a great
tiny drill press - I highly recomend
the Sakai.  Champion little unit.  
Carbide drill bits under 1/2 a
millimeter and the big stack of broken
ones are all my fault not its.

Andrew wrote:

>>Alan wrote:
>><snip>
>>Why drill anyway?
>>    
>>
>
>Even if I am doing a board with only SM
>components I often have too drill many
>holes (vias).  As soon as things get
>much more complex than some kind of
>oscillator flashing some leds - you
>need (or should) go 2 sided.
>
>  
>

  Jumpers, components over traces, taking wires out to the edge of the 
board and soldering a wire around, take several  to a single area and 
drill a larger hole and wrap wires around,. etc etc.  There's a ton of 
ways to not use a lot of little holes.  Once you get to the point that 
you start having to have a bunch of holes, you're almost out of the 
range of being effective vs having a prototype board made..  While it 
can be done, with the huge amount of time needed most would be better 
off simply buying that occasional board from a cheap prototype maker..

  While it is worth looking at or could be decent if you make a lot of 
boards, for most people's quick turn prototyping you can really get buy 
with almost no holes once you adapt your board design skills to the idea..

Alan

> >andrewm wrote:
> >Even if I am doing a board with only SM
> >components I often have too drill many
> >holes (vias).  As soon as things get
> >much more complex than some kind of
> >oscillator flashing some leds - you
> >need (or should) go 2 sided.

> Alan wrote:
> <snip>
> taking wires out to the edge of the board
> and soldering a wire around, take several
> to a single area and drill a larger hole
> and wrap wires around,. etc etc.
> <snip>

I personaly would prefer to drill lots of
itsy bitsy little holes and rivit in a via
than wrap a wire around the edge fo the
board. I'm sure the drilling/riviting
would not take that much longer.  Plus it
addresses the short path to GND issues
better which is probably a big reason for
going 2 sided in the first place.

> <snip>
> with the huge amount of time needed most
> would be better off simply buying that
> occasional board from a cheap prototype
> maker..

I get a shop to make a lot of boards for
me.  However it ends up being more often
than not someone comes to me screaming on
a friday afternoon that they need
something done by monday morning.

The time taken to drill and rivit say 30
holes for one prototype board is probably
under 5 minutes.  That would be less than
the amount of extra time it takes to
layout a complex board 1 sided.
Especially if your paying attention to
where the power rails are.


Hopefully one day I will set up a PTH
process and I can just let an autorouter
do all my unimportant work and put 3000
vias in the things.

Also once PTH is done - the next step
multi-layer is not that big.

Alan,

I can't do those tricks 'cause I design my boards so that they can be
outsourced in the future.  I want to design my board as it will be done in
'production', so if there are design anomalies I should detect them during
my DIY prototyping.

If I use unorthodox techniques of wrapping wires around the edge of PCBs and
such, that will not mimic 'exactly' how the production board will react.
I've switched to SMDs, I find them better, but they are not for everyone.
Those with bad eyes, shaky hands or serious sneezing problems won't be able
to use them.

I'm also considering through-hole plating.  There are times when having my
'future magic CNC machine' punch eyelets into a PCB would make my life so
much easier.  I think I would be happy with a manual system of placing the
eyelets and having the CNC pressure-stamp it into place.  I am not doing
mass production, as long as the CNC can 'step through' the via positions and
let me press a STAMP button after I've placed an eyelet, I'd be extremely
happy.

Robert
:)

> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
> [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De la part de Alan King
> Envoyé : mai 9 2006 18:22
> À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Objet : Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: EDM of PCB
> 
> 
>   Jumpers, components over traces, taking wires out to the 
> edge of the 
> board and soldering a wire around, take several  to a single area and 
> drill a larger hole and wrap wires around,. etc etc.  There's 
> a ton of 
> ways to not use a lot of little holes.  Once you get to the 
> point that 
> you start having to have a bunch of holes, you're almost out of the 
> range of being effective vs having a prototype board made..  While it 
> can be done, with the huge amount of time needed most would be better 
> off simply buying that occasional board from a cheap prototype maker..
> 
>   While it is worth looking at or could be decent if you make 
> a lot of 
> boards, for most people's quick turn prototyping you can 
> really get buy 
> with almost no holes once you adapt your board design skills 
> to the idea..
> 
> Alan
>

Andrew,

I'm new at this.  Would you mind giving a newbie some idea into the how's
and why's of using rivets of some sort to produce via's for two sided
boards?  I think I've got the alignment problems licked for producing a
two-sided board, but the idea of soldering little wires in place for each
via seemed pretty laborious.  I've been trying to find an easier, better way
to do it and this sounds like it might be it.  If you wouldn't mind telling
me what's involved in this method, I'd certainly appreciate it, and any
other suggestions for handling two-sided boards, also.

Thanks,

Mark 

 

  _____  

From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Andrew
Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 5:48 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: EDM of PCB

 

> >andrewm wrote:
> >Even if I am doing a board with only SM
> >components I often have to drill many
> >holes (vias).  As soon as things get
> >much more complex than some kind of
> >oscillator flashing some leds - you
> >need (or should) go 2 sided.

>I personally would prefer to drill lots of
>itsy bitsy little holes and rivit in a via
>than wrap a wire around the edge of the
>board. I'm sure the drilling/riviting
>would not take that much longer.  Plus it
>addresses the short path to GND issues
>better which is probably a big reason for
>going 2 sided in the first place.




  _____  



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Mark wrote:
> I'm new at this.  Would you mind giving
> a newbie some idea into the how's and
> why's of using rivets of some sort to
> produce via's for two sided boards?

Until I get home I am on a 10k baud (yes
thats kilo baud not megabaud) or so speed
connection.  I have done a quick google
to find the cooper tools set I use.
(the weller soldering iron and multicore
solder people) 

I could not use the cooper tools web site
at all 'cause it is a java-flash-graphic
nightmare.  However there is this page

http://www.electricstuff.co.uk/pcbs.html

that I beleive shows pictures of it.
That is from memory that they have piccies
though as I have about 10 thousand reasons
to not have images on unless I realy need
too.

I have been using the cooper tools rivet
system for many years now.  Although it
looks like it might be a nightmare, once
you get proficient at it - it only takes
a few seconds per via.

For a couple of hundred dollars the set
is well worth it for the easy of use.
However you could get by much cheaper
by just buying the bails of rivets and
buying your own automatic punch from
a local hardware store.

If you use carbide drills in a good high
speed drill press - you dont need to go
through the "reaming" step shown in the
cooperset instructions.

I have not used the snap off pin things
shown in the above website.  But I do
suspect they would be even easier than
the copperset ones.  That is as long as
the hole is a via not a pad.

There is another "rivit" system that
the bungard website shows as well.  I
have never used that system - but it
looks like it may be more robust, though
not as able to make small vias.

Maybe someone else on the group has
experience with the bungard rivets.

> I think I've got the alignment problems
> licked for producing a two-sided board,
> but the idea of soldering little wires
> in place for each via seemed pretty
> laborious.  I've been trying to find an
> easier, better way to do it and this
> sounds like it might be it.  If you
> wouldn't mind telling me what's involved
> in this method, I'd certainly appreciate
> it, and any other suggestions for
> handling two-sided boards, also.

Steps - 

1, Drill hole with carbide drill
2, Place PCB on the anvil
3, Poke in and snap of rivet with bail
   holding tool
4, Smack rivet hard with automatic punch
5, Solder both sides of hole
6, Suck out solder to leave hole empty

Only other tips I have for making double
sided boards (aside from layout tips) is
to build or buy a light box to help line
up your top and bottom photo masks.  Put
a clear peice of plastic in place of the
blank PCB, put it on the light box and it
makes registering top and bottom an easy
task.

Andrew wrote:

>>Alan wrote:
>><snip>
>>taking wires out to the edge of the board
>>and soldering a wire around, take several
>>to a single area and drill a larger hole
>>and wrap wires around,. etc etc.
>><snip>
>>    
>>
>
>I personaly would prefer to drill lots of
>itsy bitsy little holes and rivit in a via
>  
>



  Looking back at it my original reply was a bit too easy to interpret 
the other way.  That was meant as a rhetorical question, as in not only 
do a lot of people not absolutely need a CNC to do the holes, they could 
even change their layout form and not even need any holes at all.  Not 
meant to be 'no one would ever possibly want a CNC for any holes'.

  Your needs are at one end of the extremes, many people making their 
own boards would never consider doing one 1/10th that complex by hand, 
and could easily adapt what they do make to rarely need any holes at 
all.  No holes can go a long way for prototyping once you've adapted to it.

Alan

Thanks for all the information.  I googled Cooper tools and then searched
their site for rivet systems but didn't come up with anything.  I must be
searching for the wrong thing.  The links for the others listed in the UK
are hard to get here in the US.  Does anyone know of similar products
available here?

 

  _____  

From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Andrew
Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 8:08 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: EDM of PCB

 


>Andrew wrote:
>I could not use the cooper tools web site
>at all 'cause it is a java-flash-graphic
>nightmare.  However there is this page

http://www.electricstuff.co.uk/pcbs.html

>that I beleive shows pictures of it.
>That is from memory that they have piccies
>though as I have about 10 thousand reasons
>to not have images on unless I realy need
>too.




  _____  



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> markm wrote:
>
> Thanks for all the information.  I googled
> Cooper tools and then searched their site
> for ri0vet systems but didn't come up with
> anything.


Oops - sorry  - just got home - its called

COPPERSET and is made by multicore solders.

You might have better luck searching for that.

Thanks again, Andrew.

 

I was able to find info on the Copperset system by Multicore Solders.  It
looks like a nice system but does appear to be very expensive.  The sites
that talk about it say that you can use the system without buying the kit by
buying the "bail bars" and using a modified punch.  They also talk about
doing thing another way by using "linking pins".  They all say that these
are available at "most electronic supply houses".  Unfortunately, I can't
find anyplace on the net that sells any of these things.  Digi-key says to
call for pricing on the Copperset kit.  That's scary all by itself.

 

Does anybody know where you can buy any of these things?  Googling them just
brings up the original articles that talk about them but no references about
where to buy them except some places in the UK that I can't seem to get to.
There ought to be places here in the US where we can get them also.  

 

Anybody know where to look?

 

  _____  

From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Andrew
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 5:06 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: EDM of PCB

 

> markm wrote:
>
> Thanks for all the information.  I googled
> Cooper tools and then searched their site
> for ri0vet systems but didn't come up with
> anything.


Oops - sorry  - just got home - its called

COPPERSET and is made by multicore solders.

You might have better luck searching for that.



  _____  



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> I was able to find info on the Copperset
> system by Multicore Solders.  It looks
> like a nice system but does appear to be
> very expensive.  

Yes - very expensive for a few bits of
turned steel and some plastic "applicators"
but I thought about it when I first got it
and decided it was too hard for me to make
myself at the time.  Now I have my machine
shop set up quite well I would prob opt
to just buy the bails and turn up my own
anvils.

If you think about it in terms of "thats
400 $ for just some bits of plastic" it
sounds rude.  If you think of it as "Thats
400 $ i can invest/spend on something that
will save me hours and hours over the 
years I have it" it does not loook too bad.

I've shown it working to a few people
who have just thought it marvelous and
gone at got their own.  It does make doing
exact prototypes at home possible.

> The sites that talk
> about it say that you can use the system 
> without buying the kit by buying the "bail
> bars" and using a modified punch.

Yeah - would work fine without the kit.
In fact I reckon you could do it with just
a hammer and 2 small lumps of metal.

But I think an anvil turned up on the
lathe and an automatic punch with the tip
ground flat would make it a good as the
bought one.


> They also talk about
> doing thing another way by using "linking
> pins".  They all say that these are
> available at "most electronic supply
> houses".  Unfortunately, I can't find
> anyplace on the net that sells any of
> these things.

Never used those things.  Seen them for sale
at radio spares or farnell though.  They are
both pretty "world wide"

> Digi-key says to call for
> pricing on the Copperset kit.  That's
> scary all by itself.

Price on application :S

Almost like your buying a Bently.

Be scared if they say "If you have to ask
you cant afford it" :P


> Does anybody know where you can buy any of
> these things?  Googling them just brings
> up the original articles that talk about
> them but no references about where to buy
> them except some places in the UK that I
> can't seem to get to.  There ought to be
> places here in the US where we can get
> them also.  
>
> Anybody know where to look?
> 

There is a place here in QLD that sells them
called Prime Electronics (St Lucia
electronics is their other name).  If you
draw complete blanks and can't find them in
the US, I can organise some for you here and
post them to you.

> MarkM Wrote:
> Does anybody know where you can buy any
> of these things?

Was just wondering what I was going to
do when they stopped making these things.

I thought maybe trying to electroplate a
few microns of copper onto some standard
solder wire.

So I did a search on google.  And low and
behold - one of the results was in this
group.   Someone suggesting to copper
plate some solder wire.

So I did an archive search to see if
anyone actual got as far as doing it.

Didn't find if anyone had done it - but
someone mentioned two north american
suppliers of them

www.t-tech.com
www.pcbprototyping.com

Neither of the sites where kilobit
internet friendly - so I didn't look
all the way through them.  But they
may prove fruitful.

At 02:36 AM 5/11/2006, you wrote:
> > I was able to find info on the Copperset
> > system by Multicore Solders.  I

Please change the Subject.
This is not at all about EDM of PCB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Cristian

> andrewm wrote:
> Didn't find if anyone had done it - but
> someone mentioned two north american
> suppliers of them
> 
> www.t-tech.com
> www.pcbprototyping.com
> 
> Neither of the sites where kilobit
> internet friendly - so I didn't look
> all the way through them.  But they
> may prove fruitful.
>

Am home now on a cable connection so
can look at those sights.

http://www.t-tech.com/order/product.asp?sectionid=2&catid=65&productid=378

Did have the same looking things but
in a flasher looking box.

$40 for a tube of replacement rivets
and your away.  or $400ish for the
whole kit.

--- Andrew <andrewm1973@...> wrote:
> 
> $40 for a tube of replacement rivets
> and your away.  or $400ish for the
> whole kit.

half a dollar per hole?
or four dollars per hole?  my first guess is that's hard to justify....


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> > andrewm wrote:
> > $40 for a tube of replacement rivets
> > and your away.  or $400ish for the
> > whole kit.

> Herbert wrote: 
> half a dollar per hole?
> or four dollars per hole?  my first
> guess is that's hard to justify....
> 

When you have a prototype to make that
has to be exactly the same layout as the
final board.  You have to get it done
as fast as possible.  You don't have
real through hole plating at your house.
$40 PER HOLE would still be cheap :D

However I think those packets that cost
$40 have 20 bails in.  Each bail has 25
rivets.  500 rivets per pack.  So that
is 0.1 dollar a hole.

Not quite so bad.  And I am sure it
saves me 0.1 dollars worth of time over
trying to do anything with poking wires
through holes to make vias.

(at least when I buy them in the land of
OZ from in the multicore brand I get 500
rivets per pack - your milage may vary in
the US)

low profile ic sockets with small pin spacing like 1,778mm have pins which can be easily extracted and used as vias 
  :)

Andrew <andrewm1973@...> wrote:
  When you have a prototype to make that
has to be exactly the same layout as the
final board.  You have to get it done
as fast as possible.  You don't have
real through hole plating at your house.
$40 PER HOLE would still be cheap :D

However I think those packets that cost
$40 have 20 bails in.  Each bail has 25
rivets.  500 rivets per pack.  So that
is 0.1 dollar a hole.

Not quite so bad.  And I am sure it
saves me 0.1 dollars worth of time over
trying to do anything with poking wires
through holes to make vias.

			
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]