Homebrew PCBs

Hey guys,

New guy here.. I need to make a board for a project Im am currently
working on, it has been some time since I made one I wanted to see if
there were any new moethods since my last project.

One thing that caught my eye was the direct injet printing method. I
like the idea, but for the few boards I need to make every now and
then it wouldnt really be worth the hassle for me.. More so to
maintain the injet head so it is not clogged when I want to used it a
couple of times a year. 

Anyway I was goofing around with my last few pieces of boards with
some ideas I found here, only to find out that radio shack no longer
carries blank boards.. OK this sucks.. Now Im ready to build part of
my project and have to order boards ;(

So I got to thinking about the direct printing of the board.. Seems
the big problem was finding the right ink then the right method to
cure it.. 

So I thought that if the ink sticks to the copper, maybe I could print
on a piece of copper then go from there.. 

I went to the local hobbie shop, found a roll of copper .002 made a
sheet of fiber glass board (have some cloth and resin in the garage)

The Copper went throught the printer no problem, and to my surprise
the ink stuck, But would not dry.. guess thats why you guys are curing
it.. Next, I printed another piece of copper, this time I sprinkled
the wet ink with some powder coat ( I do powder coating part time)..
shook off the extra and put it in the toater over.. Perfect, The
powder baked and hardend were all the traces were, the thin coating
that was left behind easily came off with scotch brite ;)

Now the next problem.. I can not find an adhesive that will bond the
copper to the fiberboard..

The best results were with polyurethane glue (gorrila glue) , copper
stick to the fiberglass but the glue becomes pouris and under cuts big
time once it starts getting through the copper.

about the onlything that I have not tried yet was super glue (dont
have any)..

So does anyone have any ideas, that might be available localy.

If so, this could be a pretty good alternative for the guy who only
makes a board here or there. I realize that not everybody has a bunch
of powder coating sitting around in the garage, but I think I heard
sears now sells it as well as I dont see why old toner carts wouldnt
work either. or for that matter, you could always buy the yellow mips
ink and keep a spare cartrige for you current everyday printer.

Thanks
Bill

On Sun, 27 Aug 2006 17:13:13 +0200, billmcgough2000  
<bikerbill1968@...> wrote:

>
> Now the next problem.. I can not find an adhesive that will bond the
> copper to the fiberboard..


Epoxy will certainly stick if you oxidize or maybe pre-etch the copper.

Neat idea with the powder coat - what resolution would you get with it?

ST

So, if you are going to all of that trouble. making your own
fiberglass board and such, as you already have the resin, 
why not use it to glue copper to board?

make a sandwitch like this

Particle board

plastic dropcloth

copper

resin

fiberglass board

plastic dropcloth

Particle board

then clamp the thing together at the corners and centered along the 
long sides. . .

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "scratch_6057" <dml.empsrch@...>
wrote:
>
> So, if you are going to all of that trouble. making your own
> fiberglass board and such, as you already have the resin, 
> why not use it to glue copper to board?
> 

I Tried that first.

Lightly blasted the copper then cleaned it

Then did the copper, resin, fiberglass glass, copper, sandwich

Laid it all between two pieces of plate glass and put about 50 lbs of
weight on top.. the copper peeled right off with my finger nails after
etching.

I even tried it with the resin again as someone else mentioned by
using the echant to prep the surface. this time I didnt even bother
etching.. just tested it and peeled off just as easily.

Also tried using the powder coat itself, since it seems to stick to
just about any clean surface when melted, It stuck to both the copper
as well as the board very well, but had no strenth

> 
> Epoxy will certainly stick if you oxidize or maybe pre-etch the copper.
> 
> Neat idea with the powder coat - what resolution would you get with it?

Epoxy resin in the fiberglass or an epoxy adhesive ?


I just posted another message that the copper would not stick well
using the resin as the adhesive. I did infact try it twice one time by
blasting and once as you mentioned, but not in the terms as an
oxidzer, but more or less to roughen the surface. I thought that maybe
I was somehow contaminating the surface  by the abrasive blast. 

BTW I checked.. the resing in my fiberglass kit is a polyester, not
epoxy. Do you think the epoxy resin would make much differance ?

As far as the resolution goes.. it dependes on how steady you are at
getting it from the printer to the kitchen to apply the powder ;) 

I also found the sifting the powder through and old bandanna doesnt
disturb the ink as much and gives a much finer line.. But all in all I
say it is no better or worse than any toner transfer method I have tried

Bill

Polyesters will not bond metal (not for long or very well anyway). 
You do need epoxy or a ca type adhesive. Epoxy should be the longer
cure types not the 5 minute stuff. Scuff the copper with some 
220 or 180 grit wet sandpaper and wipe down with acetone to remove 
the gunk. You can also use those green plastic brillo pads found in
the kitchen, just make sure they are the soap free kind.

Copper, epoxy and frp boards bond pretty nice.

Dave

> > 
> > Epoxy will certainly stick if you oxidize or maybe pre-etch the copper.
> > 
> > Neat idea with the powder coat - what resolution would you get with it?
> 
> Epoxy resin in the fiberglass or an epoxy adhesive ?
> 
> 
> I just posted another message that the copper would not stick well
> using the resin as the adhesive. I did infact try it twice one time by
> blasting and once as you mentioned, but not in the terms as an
> oxidzer, but more or less to roughen the surface. I thought that maybe
> I was somehow contaminating the surface  by the abrasive blast. 
> 
> BTW I checked.. the resing in my fiberglass kit is a polyester, not
> epoxy. Do you think the epoxy resin would make much differance ?
> 
> As far as the resolution goes.. it dependes on how steady you are at
> getting it from the printer to the kitchen to apply the powder ;) 
> 
> I also found the sifting the powder through and old bandanna doesnt
> disturb the ink as much and gives a much finer line.. But all in all I
> say it is no better or worse than any toner transfer method I have tried
> 
> Bill
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, 
> and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> 
> If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/ 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
>

You can use some of the pcb material (fiberglass and copper) which is very thin and flexible
already. This you can run thru the printer with no mods and then glue that to a fiberglass board
before you etch. I am going to try that first before I modify a Epson printer with the CD tray
slot.

Has anyone tried this ?

print laser toner on fiberglass board
put copper powder coat on board
heat board   copper bonds to toner
remove excess copper powder ( shake off )

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--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Gus S Calabrese <gsc@...> wrote:
>
> Has anyone tried this ?
> 
> print laser toner on fiberglass board
> put copper powder coat on board
> heat board   copper bonds to toner
> remove excess copper powder ( shake off )
> 

I dont have and copper colored powder coat, but I tested the crome
"looking" powder quite some time ago to see if it infact was
conductive, had to really scratch the surface to get a reading. Infact
I probably was actually reading the base metal. It does have alot of
al in it to give it a chrome appearance, but there is so much more
plastic in it to bond it together.

One thing I thought of allong those line was similar to what you
mentioned.. But instead of powder was to iron gold leafing over the
toner. The leaf will only stick to the toner. 

Then drill out at least one of the holes in each trace throw something
like a header pin in each hole, wire wrap them together and then dump
the whole thing in a copper plating solution.

But........  That seem like alot more work than the old fashion toner
methods and Im not to sure the tonner would keep all to the board

Bill