Homebrew PCBs

Stefan, the C84 conversion webpage says, "If you use very thin (60mil/1.5mm), 
then skip these steps.
Am I missing something. To me, 60mil or 1/16" is quite thick. It used to be 
the most common available but I see 1/32 and 1/64 is now fairly common, too.
Are you saying that the C84 will pass the smaller gauges without modification?
How thick can the C84 take before the head needs to be raised?
TIA,

  (also, I'm curious as to why you chose the C84 if there is any other reason 
other that it was "there")


Tuck

On Fri, 15 Dec 2006 06:30:15 +0100, Tuck Hartshorn <tuck@...> wrote:

> Stefan, the C84 conversion webpage says, "If you use very thin  
> (60mil/1.5mm),
> then skip these steps.
> Am I missing something. To me, 60mil or 1/16" is quite thick. It used to  
> be
> the most common available but I see 1/32 and 1/64 is now fairly common,  
> too.
> Are you saying that the C84 will pass the smaller gauges without  
> modification?
> How thick can the C84 take before the head needs to be raised?
> TIA,
>  (also, I'm curious as to why you chose the C84 if there is any other  
> reason
> other that it was "there")
> Tuck


I don't remember saying that, could you give me a link so i can see the  
context?

I selected the c84 mostly because it was the most plentiful, yes. You  
could always find one on ebay for 1eur.


ST

Hi,

Yes, Steve said that a thin PCB 20 mils can pass without 
modification and Steve is correct- that works fine. I will answer 
and comment about the method:

1. Thank you Steve for letting us know about the C84 and mispro ink. 
I followed your advice and while I had a hard time to follow it, it 
was a very good info.

2. I duplicated all Steves experiments and I can tell you that teh 
PCBs generated in that manner resemble near photo quality. The 
method is fast (I can have a PCB in 20 minutes etched) and it seems 
to be a bit better in quality than TT. Regrefully there are many 
variables and Zoran actually had a point in this case but than again 
I disagree with Zoran on photochemical being simple-- yes it is 
simple if you buy sensitized PCBs ($$) but if you make them.. I can 
write a dissertation if there is a demand)

3. What is wrong with printing on copper? The method is really cool. 
You stick a PCB and off you have the pattern that can be heated up 
and etched. Well, the printer C84 is $itty.I got one and learned on 
it. Freeing up the heads is not for everyone. In fact not knowing 
hte reader I can tell it is not for you... BS on the net about 
cleaning is just that-BS. Having that C84 I then decided to use it 
for learning about sheet metal. I reade and reread Steves directions 
about nibbling on it and the results was I finally took a 
reciprocating saw and cut above the slot.  Now what? You have to 
mount it so that it is true in three planes and true for CNC means 
different trueness than for making wood cabinets. Bottom line is: 
you won't be able to mount that cut off front rail so it holds its 
position today and tomorrow. No way. If you have so much metal 
talent I suggest sticking that head on a  cnc machine that Dave will 
have in January and now you've got something going!

4. So the good news is: you do not have to touch the sheet metal and 
can remove few plastic parts and start sliding PCBs of 20mils or 
thinner, right? Sort of. Like I said the printer is $itty. 

5. But there is a light in a tunnel. People like morons keep buying 
those poor quality printers C84 on ebay for big $$$s. They don't 
know that they can have a brand new printer C88+ from CompUSA for 
$80 and actually with some discounts for much less. Brand new. It is 
the same printer jus brand new. As a reminder C86 also is the same 
printer but also $itty quality.

5. So now you have a brand new C88+ and are ready to buy the inks. 
You bought the inks, you isntalled the chips with the gooball and 
are ready to print. Surprise! My c88+ printed crooked! I took it 
apart and what happened? The pad looked like a used cotex, but with 
black ink. I swear, those people at Epson sell rufubished printers! 
I saw ink all over inside, I saw plastic parts labelled 'resprayed'. 
Maybe collection of early engineering prototypes? Times are tough 
for everyone, I guess. I used that printer for experiments:  I warn 
you, stay away from cutting metal. I was printing all right, but 
getting anything resembling  a pattern was impossible.

5. Another C88+ another day. I printed mispro ink. Frankly, IMO 
misproinks might be a solution for some but the quality of colors is 
unacceptable. Those people at mispro are color blind that they don't 
see that they don't resemble epson colors. Stay away from mispro if 
you want to have quality colors.

6. But all we care is that secret ingredient in yellow in magenta, 
so who cares. I finally got C88+ printing, made the famous cut in 
side (thank you Steve, that helped, great job you did!) and was very 
happy. Heating it is no problem but takes some experimenting, no 
biggie. The PCBs are etch resistant, except for the very thin traces 
have tendency to underetch. Now: let'sention one thing: what I like 
in a PCB is not what you like in a PCB> I am talking about 
complelxity on the level of a PCB in desktop PC, ok? And that type 
is achieveable with ease with, I would say 99% accuracy. Almost 
photo quality.

7. So what seems to be the prblem? Well, few days later I revisited 
teh experiment and the print head was clogged- ina brand new 
printer. Cleaning, etc.. came out better but still for a brand new 
printer it is surprising that Epson engineers don't have it in grip.

I am disappointed with the drying out ink when printer is not in use 
and that pretty much disqualifies teh method unless you know youa re 
printing daily and I hope it is often enough.
I don't have that problem with a laminator.

It amazes me that I read discussions on Make of people excited about 
it, without understanding that even a brand new printer is not a 
solutionn for printing PCBs. Was fun to try it but it is not a good 
solution. It is probably the same problem liek with the plotter pens 
that always dried out except here you cannot run the cartriges dry- 
that mispro misfit is expensive. I feel sorry for peole who try to 
make a living pinting on inkjet printers large size prints- there's 
got to be a better way.

So who is going to present the next innovation?
Mike

I just want it known that i disagree with many points of this post.
I don't have the time right now to go into details though, just treat it  
as not unanimously accepted.

ST

On Sun, 17 Dec 2006 22:38:29 +0100, mikezcnc <eemikez@...> wrote:

> Hi,
> Yes, Steve said that a thin PCB 20 mils can pass without
> modification and Steve is correct- that works fine. I will answer
> and comment about the method:
> 1. Thank you Steve for letting us know about the C84 and mispro ink.
> I followed your advice and while I had a hard time to follow it, it
> was a very good info.
> 2. I duplicated all Steves experiments and I can tell you that teh
> PCBs generated in that manner resemble near photo quality. The
> method is fast (I can have a PCB in 20 minutes etched) and it seems
> to be a bit better in quality than TT. Regrefully there are many
> variables and Zoran actually had a point in this case but than again
> I disagree with Zoran on photochemical being simple-- yes it is
> simple if you buy sensitized PCBs ($$) but if you make them.. I can
> write a dissertation if there is a demand)
> 3. What is wrong with printing on copper? The method is really cool.
> You stick a PCB and off you have the pattern that can be heated up
> and etched. Well, the printer C84 is $itty.I got one and learned on
> it. Freeing up the heads is not for everyone. In fact not knowing
> hte reader I can tell it is not for you... BS on the net about
> cleaning is just that-BS. Having that C84 I then decided to use it
> for learning about sheet metal. I reade and reread Steves directions
> about nibbling on it and the results was I finally took a
> reciprocating saw and cut above the slot.  Now what? You have to
> mount it so that it is true in three planes and true for CNC means
> different trueness than for making wood cabinets. Bottom line is:
> you won't be able to mount that cut off front rail so it holds its
> position today and tomorrow. No way. If you have so much metal
> talent I suggest sticking that head on a  cnc machine that Dave will
> have in January and now you've got something going!
> 4. So the good news is: you do not have to touch the sheet metal and
> can remove few plastic parts and start sliding PCBs of 20mils or
> thinner, right? Sort of. Like I said the printer is $itty.
> 5. But there is a light in a tunnel. People like morons keep buying
> those poor quality printers C84 on ebay for big $$$s. They don't
> know that they can have a brand new printer C88+ from CompUSA for
> $80 and actually with some discounts for much less. Brand new. It is
> the same printer jus brand new. As a reminder C86 also is the same
> printer but also $itty quality.
> 5. So now you have a brand new C88+ and are ready to buy the inks.
> You bought the inks, you isntalled the chips with the gooball and
> are ready to print. Surprise! My c88+ printed crooked! I took it
> apart and what happened? The pad looked like a used cotex, but with
> black ink. I swear, those people at Epson sell rufubished printers!
> I saw ink all over inside, I saw plastic parts labelled 'resprayed'.
> Maybe collection of early engineering prototypes? Times are tough
> for everyone, I guess. I used that printer for experiments:  I warn
> you, stay away from cutting metal. I was printing all right, but
> getting anything resembling  a pattern was impossible.
> 5. Another C88+ another day. I printed mispro ink. Frankly, IMO
> misproinks might be a solution for some but the quality of colors is
> unacceptable. Those people at mispro are color blind that they don't
> see that they don't resemble epson colors. Stay away from mispro if
> you want to have quality colors.
> 6. But all we care is that secret ingredient in yellow in magenta,
> so who cares. I finally got C88+ printing, made the famous cut in
> side (thank you Steve, that helped, great job you did!) and was very
> happy. Heating it is no problem but takes some experimenting, no
> biggie. The PCBs are etch resistant, except for the very thin traces
> have tendency to underetch. Now: let'sention one thing: what I like
> in a PCB is not what you like in a PCB> I am talking about
> complelxity on the level of a PCB in desktop PC, ok? And that type
> is achieveable with ease with, I would say 99% accuracy. Almost
> photo quality.
> 7. So what seems to be the prblem? Well, few days later I revisited
> teh experiment and the print head was clogged- ina brand new
> printer. Cleaning, etc.. came out better but still for a brand new
> printer it is surprising that Epson engineers don't have it in grip.
> I am disappointed with the drying out ink when printer is not in use
> and that pretty much disqualifies teh method unless you know youa re
> printing daily and I hope it is often enough.
> I don't have that problem with a laminator.
> It amazes me that I read discussions on Make of people excited about
> it, without understanding that even a brand new printer is not a
> solutionn for printing PCBs. Was fun to try it but it is not a good
> solution. It is probably the same problem liek with the plotter pens
> that always dried out except here you cannot run the cartriges dry-
> that mispro misfit is expensive. I feel sorry for peole who try to
> make a living pinting on inkjet printers large size prints- there's
> got to be a better way.
> So who is going to present the next innovation?
> Mike

Hi Stephan,

I have no intention of dicussing that subject either but I will 
summarize again:

1. Direct printing on copper is a COOL method but the ink tends to 
dry out in the printer head and when it dries out even teh cleaning 
cartridges from mispro do not work. My suggestion is: stay away from 
mispro inks- their color is not what epson envisioned for quality- 
they are 'dirty' colors! Even if you get to the point of printing, 
two days later it won't print and you brand new printer will behave 
like it was from ebay. The reason? Dies out in a print head. 

2. Do not buy Epson printers from ebay and do not buy Epson printers 
refurbished- not worth it. And do not buy C84!!! Nor C86!!!

3. Mispro ink is good for printing on PCBs  but if you think you 
will use it as ink in your second printer- you will not: you have to 
swap, according to Stefan, yellow cartridge with black. That makes 
yellow cartridge black and by difusion... you get the picture.? 

4. Your printer even if it only prints on 20 mil copper, ie without 
conversion with the nibbling tool (you haven't lived yet if you have 
not converted a C84 according to Stefan's direction: Stefan is a 
genious and you are not :)  -- even then you will not be able to use 
your printer for printing for any normal prints unless your 
application is on a small format or you enjoy having an alongated 
cutout in paper on the right side....approximately 35mm :))

4. Good luck and PLEASE QUIT BUYING THOSE  inferior Epson C84 
printers. At least in US you can buy a brand new C88+ that does the 
same job.

And yes: it was a major breakthru when Stefan (I guess theere was 
another person invollved in that project) determined yellow and 
magenta contain an ingredient which laminates at high temp. Beyond 
that it is an excercise (I won't say "in futility, but close) and it 
is not a method as convenient as TT. No way. Resolution? Depending 
on your skill and application, can be very close, too.

Cost and economy: it is a nonsense to even consider the economy of 
mispro inks application $$$$$$. You want to know something better? 
Mispro resetter does NOT work on original Epson cartridges. Does 
not, so you cannot re-use them for reinking the original ones. Am I 
the only one in the world who decided to follow Stefan's directions? 
Wow! We have so many writers on the subject :)) Mike

On Mon, 18 Dec 2006 18:13:36 +0100, mikezcnc <eemikez@...> wrote:

> Hi Stephan,
> I have no intention of dicussing that subject either but I will
> summarize again:


ok, i still disagree ;-)

ST

You are the best Stefan, and I respect you for that. What I have 
learned from your description is that few men in this world can match 
your talent :) You are that good. Mike

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:

>
> On Mon, 18 Dec 2006 18:13:36 +0100, mikezcnc <eemikez@...> wrote:
> 
> > Hi Stephan,
> > I have no intention of dicussing that subject either but I will
> > summarize again:
> 
> 
> ok, i still disagree ;-)
> 
> ST
>

On 18/12/06, mikezcnc <eemikez@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Stephan,
>
>  I have no intention of dicussing that subject either but I will
>  summarize again:
>
>  1. Direct printing on copper is a COOL method but the ink tends to
>  dry out in the printer head and when it dries out even teh cleaning
>  cartridges from mispro do not work.

Soak them.

>  My suggestion is: stay away from
>  mispro inks- their color is not what epson envisioned for quality-
>  they are 'dirty' colors! Even if you get to the point of printing,
>

I dont car if they are crap at photo prints provided they do good pcb
for people.

> two days later it won't print and you brand new printer will behave
>  like it was from ebay. The reason? Dies out in a print head.
>
Should not dry out if the head is parked properly and the parking
rubber is intact.



>  2. Do not buy Epson printers from ebay and do not buy Epson printers
>  refurbished- not worth it. And do not buy C84!!! Nor C86!!!
>

No, buy a photocolour 900, take pcb upto a4 size and upto about 4mm
thick! beat that!


>  3. Mispro ink is good for printing on PCBs  but if you think you
>  will use it as ink in your second printer- you will not: you have to
>  swap, according to Stefan, yellow cartridge with black. That makes
>  yellow cartridge black and by difusion... you get the picture.?
>
No, but I think it means put yellow ink in so it goes into the black nozzles


>  4. Good luck and PLEASE QUIT BUYING THOSE  inferior Epson C84
>  printers. At least in US you can buy a brand new C88+ that does the
>  same job.

yard sales / carboot sales, pick them up for nothing, so why not use them?

>  Cost and economy: it is a nonsense to even consider the economy of
>  mispro inks application $$$$$$. You want to know something better?
>  Mispro resetter does NOT work on original Epson cartridges. Does

So what ink do we get then?


-- 

Lez

Hi Lez,

You wrote:

> No, buy a photocolour 900, take pcb upto a4 size and
> upto about 4mm thick! beat that!

How much modification is needed is needed for 900?

I just disassembled the plastic cover of the R220, and
adjusted its head height with my hand to print on the
PCB. All took 1 hour since it was my first job.

Best,

Dr.


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Hi,

I did not want sacrifice my brand new Epson R220
while trying edding pen's etch and water resistant
ink.

As you know, they are permanent ink markers used
as correction pens in homebrew PCB market.

One in my hand now is "edding 140 S, ohp marker".
But I am not sure that I can find its ink separately.

Any comments, any victim tried it?

:-)

Best,

Dr.



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On 18/12/06, Bora Dikmen <bora_dikmen@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Lez,
>
>  You wrote:
>
>  > No, buy a photocolour 900, take pcb upto a4 size and
>  > upto about 4mm thick! beat that!
>
>  How much modification is needed is needed for 900?

None, takes a plastic carrier for the cd thats about 3mm thick, a4 in
size, goes in from rear, opto alignments etc, spot on everytime.

I have never printed a real pcb as I only have dye based ink and they
wash right off, and being in the UK no UK store sells any decent ink,
and I wont pay $50 for an epson cartridge

I have printed onto PCB with paper stuck on with glue to test if it
would feed pcb, and had no problem, just dont have the right ink.




Lez

Hi Lez,

R220 can also print onto CDs. It has a narrow (1/3 of
A4) CD tray. I tried to print PCB via this utility but
it failed. The sensor in the printing head carefully
search a white blank CD is inserted in the right
place.

If it can not detect such a thing, it gives an error
of
"CD is not properly located in the CD tray" and
refused
to print.

Are you sure that we can print on A4 very easily? 

What you mean by "opto alignments etc, spot on
everytime"?

If you use the print CD utility, I have serious doubts
:-)

Best,

Dr.



> > Hi Lez,
> >
> >  You wrote:
> >
> >  > No, buy a photocolour 900, take pcb upto a4
> size and
> >  > upto about 4mm thick! beat that!
> >
> >  How much modification is needed is needed for
> 900?
> 
> None, takes a plastic carrier for the cd thats about
> 3mm thick, a4 in
> size, goes in from rear, opto alignments etc, spot
> on everytime.
> 
> I have never printed a real pcb as I only have dye
> based ink and they
> wash right off, and being in the UK no UK store
> sells any decent ink,
> and I wont pay $50 for an epson cartridge
> 
> I have printed onto PCB with paper stuck on with
> glue to test if it
> would feed pcb, and had no problem, just dont have
> the right ink.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lez
> 


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>  R220 can also print onto CDs. It has a narrow (1/3 of
>  A4) CD tray. I tried to print PCB via this utility but
>  it failed. The sensor in the printing head carefully
>  search a white blank CD is inserted in the right
>  place.
>
>  If it can not detect such a thing, it gives an error
>  of
>  "CD is not properly located in the CD tray" and
>  refused
>  to print

Yes isnt machine intelligence wonderful, the 900 OTOH, optically
detects a notch and a white square printed on the tray, not the disk.

I have tried standard 1.6mm copper fr4 about 1/3 of a cd size, inthe
cd cutout/indentation, worked fine, just ink wipes off as I have dye
ink cartridges.

So, printer fine, economy inks no good, maybe if I bought a $55
durabrite cartridge it would do PCB 'off the shelf'

Lez