Homebrew PCBs

Has anyone here tried pcb printing using a thermal TRANSFER printer?  
These are the printers used normally to print shipping lables.  It has 
a thermal head, which doesnt work like an inkjet head, its a thermal 
device that HEATS paper or ribbon to rastorize images.

At 11:14 AM 3/13/2007, you wrote:

>Has anyone here tried pcb printing using a thermal TRANSFER printer?
>These are the printers used normally to print shipping lables. It has
>a thermal head, which doesnt work like an inkjet head, its a thermal
>device that HEATS paper or ribbon to rastorize images.

I have not tried that, but I had thought about an old ribbon printer 
in the 80's that used a wax coated ribbon to print decals that could 
be ironed on to T shirts.  Wish we had those, the wax might work.

Brian G.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "docstein99" <docstein99@...> 
wrote:
>
> Has anyone here tried pcb printing using a thermal TRANSFER printer?  
> These are the printers used normally to print shipping lables.  It 
has 
> a thermal head, which doesnt work like an inkjet head, its a thermal 
> device that HEATS paper or ribbon to rastorize images.

Someone did try it with an Alps with wax ribbons installed, but found 
that the copper sucks away heat too quickly for the wax to adhere. And 
wax thermal tends to be very low resolution. I think the best on an 
Alps or Roland (Roland uses Alps heads) is 600dpi max. Those wax 
thermal CD and label printers are more like 200dpi.

Steve Greenfield

Yes I have found the same issues.  The board must be heated to around 
60 celcius and remain that temp while it runs across the head.  Not 
easy.  I have to hack apart a heat sealer or laminator to try getting 
it to work and feel that attempt would probably be another score to a 
fatal try.

But the thermal ribbon material is really interesting!  Its a thin 
plastic clear ribbon coated with black wax, or wax/resin, or resin 
(depending on how much $$$).  Once an image is printed, say to paper - 
it leaves an image on the ribbon for the parts that didnt print.  I 
printed a circuit-board in reverse, and was left with a positive image 
on the ribbon.  With the correct amount of heat and pressure it is 
possible to seal directly to the copper - much like a toner transfer 
method.

>
>Someone did try it with an Alps with wax ribbons installed, but found
>that the copper sucks away heat too quickly for the wax to adhere.

Why not preheat the bare pcb?
Cristian

If the board is too hot, it will melt all the wax to it.  If its too 
cold then none of the wax will bind.  Any variations of heat in the 
middle, sides, front or back of the board will also cause a misprint.  
Not easy.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Cristian <bip@...> wrote:

>
> 
> >
> >Someone did try it with an Alps with wax ribbons installed, but found
> >that the copper sucks away heat too quickly for the wax to adhere.
> 
> Why not preheat the bare pcb?
> Cristian
>

On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 01:42:05 +0100, docstein99 <docstein99@...>  
wrote:

>
> But the thermal ribbon material is really interesting!  Its a thin
> plastic clear ribbon coated with black wax, or wax/resin, or resin
> (depending on how much $$$).  Once an image is printed, say to paper -
> it leaves an image on the ribbon for the parts that didnt print.  I
> printed a circuit-board in reverse, and was left with a positive image
> on the ribbon.  With the correct amount of heat and pressure it is
> possible to seal directly to the copper - much like a toner transfer
> method.


But isn't it kinda narrow, the ribbon?
How small would the PCBs need to be?

ST

> But isn't it kinda narrow, the ribbon?
> How small would the PCBs need to be?

I requested samples from various vendors who stock thermal ribbons for 
zebra printers.  I got wax, wax/resin and resin ribbon samples.  The 
narrowest is 3 inches, the widest is 4 inches (making the widest board 
4 inches).

If it were possible to find a solution to get this to work, in my 
resources if I look harder I am sure to find ribbons which would be 
probably 8 or 9 inches wide.

>> docstein99 wrote:
>> But the thermal ribbon material is really
>> interesting!  Its a thin plastic clear ribbon
>> coated with black wax, or wax/resin, or resin
>> (depending on how much $$$).
>> <SNIP>
 
> ST wrote:
> But isn't it kinda narrow, the ribbon?
> How small would the PCBs need to be?

My old fargo primera pro used an oversized A4
ribbon.

The fargo pictura used an oversized A3 ribbion.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 01:42:05 +0100, docstein99 <docstein99@...>  
> wrote:
> 
> >
> > But the thermal ribbon material is really interesting!  Its a thin
> > plastic clear ribbon coated with black wax, or wax/resin, or resin
> > (depending on how much $$$).  Once an image is printed, say to paper -
> > it leaves an image on the ribbon for the parts that didnt print.  I
> > printed a circuit-board in reverse, and was left with a positive image
> > on the ribbon.  With the correct amount of heat and pressure it is
> > possible to seal directly to the copper - much like a toner transfer
> > method.
> 
> 
> But isn't it kinda narrow, the ribbon?
> How small would the PCBs need to be?

How narrow is an inkjet print head? Think about it...

The Alps ribbon is about 12 to 15mm wide. Prints 8.5x14 page.

Steve Greenfield

> How narrow is an inkjet print head? Think about it...
> 
> The Alps ribbon is about 12 to 15mm wide. Prints 8.5x14 page.

Yes that is another good point.  If you ran the ribbon like an old dot-
matrix printer, and designed a machine to work just like that ribbon, 
you could possibly make a thermal printout as wide and as long as your 
skills are to make a machine to handle that type of thing.

> > docstein99 wrote:
> > 
> > But isn't it kinda narrow, the ribbon?
> > How small would the PCBs need to be?

> ST wrote:
> 
> How narrow is an inkjet print head? Think
> about it...
> 
> The Alps ribbon is about 12 to 15mm wide.
> Prints 8.5x14 page.

But part of the thread had drifted off to
say

Print on the film a negative of what you
want then remove the film from the printer
and iron it on like toner transfer

if you did THAT you would either be stuck
with a PCB as wide as the film OR have to
spend a lot fo time lining it up.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" <andrewm1973@...> wrote:
> > Steve Greenfield wrote:
> > The Alps ribbon is about 12 to 15mm wide.
> > Prints 8.5x14 page.
> 
> But part of the thread had drifted off to
> say
> 
> Print on the film a negative of what you
> want then remove the film from the printer
> and iron it on like toner transfer
> 
> if you did THAT you would either be stuck
> with a PCB as wide as the film OR have to
> spend a lot fo time lining it up.

I see. I'd missed that part.

Steve Greenfield

On Mar 14, 2007, at 5:08 PM, Steve wrote:

> I think the best on an
> Alps or Roland (Roland uses Alps heads) is 600dpi max. Those wax
> thermal CD and label printers are more like 200dpi.


I've been off-line for two weeks, forgive me if this has been asked  
and answered.

What about the photo ID type printers?

I have a Fargo FotoFun! printer that can be used to make customized  
photo mugs.    You select the setting to NOT apply the clear sealer  
layer over the print.

It's limited to about 4" by 7".   I don't recall the resolution at  
the moment but the pictures look pretty good.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> William Carr wrote:
>
> <SNIP>
> I have a Fargo FotoFun!
> <SNIP>
> I don't recall the resolution at the moment
> but the pictures look pretty good.

The fargo printers are all either 203dpi or
300dpi.  They manage to look much better than
other printers with higher resolutions because
they are continuos tone.  They dont look very
good for black and white line art.