Homebrew PCBs

I made a pivoting type manual drill press. The drill motor is 
fixed to the end of 500 mm long arm which pivots at its end by 
two thrust bearings (from an old car clutch) that sandwich the 
50x50mm (3 mm wall) square aluminium arm. The difficult part is 
mounting the motor to the end of the arm, because you want it 
adjustable for alignment of the vertical feed and get it 
perfectly parallel. If anyone is interested I will get some 
photos and make them available online.

The advantage of this technique is almost zero side to side play 
without the need of precision linear bearings. You can safely use 
  0.45mm carbide drill bits, the smallest size drill I own.

The disadvantage is the extra bench space required for the long 
arm, which is fixed to a large heavy base like a slab of 18 mm 
MDF particle board. I usually have the habit of over engineering 
my home brew stuff and probably could of made it half the size.

Adam

Stefan Trethan wrote:

> i thought of manual drill press, moving the pcb with your hand.
> 
> i know there are such devices sold especially for this task and they are qite expensive.
> but i'm sure it is possible to get a drill press working properly without these special bearings.
> if you limit the minimum diameter to 0,8 or 0,6 millimeter.
> 
> 
> i was wondering how the guys here do the drilling which don't hava a x/y drill cnc machine.
> 
> regards
> stefan
>

hi

i also thought of that initially.
but i discarded it because i thought this moves the drill in a rotrary way not straight (i know this is 
nothing with 50cm arm and 1,5mm pcb with.
you have used it - it is no problem?

how do you operate it (how is that arm moved by you?).

a picture would be very nice, to see the motor mount, and maybe the overall machine to see how it is 
operated. 
also a look at your bearings would be fine, i have never dismanteled a car clutch (but have a lot of 
spare bearings). i don't exacty know what thrust bearings are. my dictionary provides various 
translations meaning everything or nothing..

is it a simple bearing with two concentric rings (one smaller, one bigger) and balls between the two?
like the most "ball bearings". or is it of some special type?

regards
st





19.05.2003 09:40:28, Adam Seychell <adam_seychell@...> wrote:

>I made a pivoting type manual drill press. The drill motor is 
>fixed to the end of 500 mm long arm which pivots at its end by 
>two thrust bearings (from an old car clutch) that sandwich the 
>50x50mm (3 mm wall) square aluminium arm. The difficult part is 
>mounting the motor to the end of the arm, because you want it 
>adjustable for alignment of the vertical feed and get it 
>perfectly parallel. If anyone is interested I will get some 
>photos and make them available online.
>
>The advantage of this technique is almost zero side to side play 
>without the need of precision linear bearings. You can safely use 
>  0.45mm carbide drill bits, the smallest size drill I own.
>
>The disadvantage is the extra bench space required for the long 
>arm, which is fixed to a large heavy base like a slab of 18 mm 
>MDF particle board. I usually have the habit of over engineering 
>my home brew stuff and probably could of made it half the size.
>
>Adam
>
>Stefan Trethan wrote:
>> i thought of manual drill press, moving the pcb with your hand.
>> 
>> i know there are such devices sold especially for this task and they are qite expensive.
>> but i'm sure it is possible to get a drill press working properly without these special bearings.
>> if you limit the minimum diameter to 0,8 or 0,6 millimeter.
>> 
>> 
>> i was wondering how the guys here do the drilling which don't hava a x/y drill cnc machine.
>> 
>> regards
>> stefan
>> 
>
>
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> 
>
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>
>
>

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Stefan Trethan" <stefan_trethan@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, May 19, 2003 9:51 AM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] How I make my PCBs -> manual drilling


). i don't exacty know what thrust bearings are. my dictionary provides
various
> translations meaning everything or nothing..
>
> is it a simple bearing with two concentric rings (one smaller, one bigger)
and balls between the two?
> like the most "ball bearings". or is it of some special type?

No. It's basically two similar rings, one above the other, with rollers
between.

Leon
--
Leon Heller, G1HSM
leon_heller@...
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller

thrust bearings are used to support forces in axial directions, which is the 
direction along the axis of the rotating part. like supporting the rotor of 
a motor (inner rotating part)

>From: "Leon Heller" <leon_heller@...>
>Reply-To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] How I make my PCBs -> manual drilling
>Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 11:27:31 +0100
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Stefan Trethan" <stefan_trethan@...>
>To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
>Sent: Monday, May 19, 2003 9:51 AM
>Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] How I make my PCBs -> manual drilling
>
>
>). i don't exacty know what thrust bearings are. my dictionary provides
>various
> > translations meaning everything or nothing..
> >
> > is it a simple bearing with two concentric rings (one smaller, one 
>bigger)
>and balls between the two?
> > like the most "ball bearings". or is it of some special type?
>
>No. It's basically two similar rings, one above the other, with rollers
>between.
>
>Leon
>--
>Leon Heller, G1HSM
>leon_heller@...
>http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller
>
>
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

_________________________________________________________________
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i stupid guy have got the empty cartridges today.
i wanted to try it out instantly if it works.
there is a pcb which is connected to the print head and to the main board by flexible wires.
this was in the way of the copper board desk. so i holded it up by hand (didn't fix it on other position 
until now. when the head moved (very fast!) it pulled it out of my hand and it did fall down.
as murphey's law prescribes it did exactly fall on a metal screw which shorted some pins out.
there was this "smell" you know, the smell of the hell for anyone having killed some electronic gear 
this moment.

now the printer always says black cartridge is missing.
i exchanged the flexible wires from the black with that from the color cartridge (surprisingly they seem 
to have the same pinout. it sows up that the section on this controller board for black is damaged.
it is all smd, all more or less non standard ic.

i think i may repair it, but a new printer (also of this kind) would cost nothing (1 or 2 eur at ebay).
but i would have to get it.

it was really stupid to drop the board.
and it was really stupid of the board to exactly hit this screw with the right contacts.

the bad thing is i can't tell which ic is kaput (no optical hints).
i also can't tell exactly which pins where shorted.

but i may exchange the ics from the black/color side (clearly separated).
but this are 13 pieces ea. and in worst case i would have to desolder/solder all 26.
all nice tiny smd.. which fun!

i see i have to get the soldering equipment near the tv / or vice versa.

i only wanted to say my results may take some time to get ready... sorry about that.

regards
stefan

has anyone this model at home?
may it somebody inspect for pcb printing possibilities?

i would get it for little eur but i don't want to get it only to discover it is not useful vor converting 
to pcb printer.


if anyone has it, please have a look at the paper transport path, how it is driven, if it is possible to 
feed flat materialy through, which thickness is possible (maybe with moving some axes).

i have no idea how it is constructed, only knew it was cheap.

i guess it takes the paper from the front, spitting it out backwards.

how is the paper transported? are the rollers which apply the momentum under the paper?


i think if anyone here has this printer he would be much more able to asess if it is worth a try than any 
ebay seller because you can imagine the application.


thanks
stefan

image would be here if anyone isn'z sure if he knows this model:
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3416464904

I don't know specifically about the HP 400, but all the desktop HP
inkjet printers I've seen pull the paper in the front from that bottom
tray you can see, and wrap it 360 back out the front of the printer.

Aha! Always use the resources available. HP still has the user manual
in PDF format.

http://www.hp.com/cposupport/manindex/dj400_eng_man.html

Looks like you do have the option to feed paper through the back and
have it come out the front. No idea just how straight the path is, though.

The HP 310, 320, 330, and 340 Deskjet (parallel) and Deskwriter
(serial) laptop printers have a very short straight through paper path
but tend to cost a bit more because they are very small and portable.
I have several of them myself, intending on testing one of them this way.

I'm sorry to hear about the mishap with your printer.

Steve Greenfield

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> has anyone this model at home?
> may it somebody inspect for pcb printing possibilities?
-snip-
> if anyone has it, please have a look at the paper transport path,
how it is driven, if it is possible to 
> feed flat materialy through, which thickness is possible (maybe with
moving some axes).
-snip-
> how is the paper transported? are the rollers which apply the
momentum under the paper?

> thanks
> stefan
> 
> image would be here if anyone isn'z sure if he knows this model:
> http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3416464904

Stefan,

http://howstuffworks.lycoszone.com/bearing3.htm

This URL  shows the basic idea of the thrust bearing. All I know 
is that the bearing used in car clutches use a thrust type , but 
the ones on clutches are fully enclosed, unlike shown in the 
diagram. These bearings are fairly cheap and widely available. 
You could even use the old clutch bearings which car mechanics 
routinely throw away.

If I get home from work at a reasonable hour today, then I'll try 
make create a quick web page showing the construction of my drill 
press. This drill machine was designed from only cheap common 
materials, except actual drill motor, which I had set be back 
AU$240. See;

http://www.bosch.com.au/productcatalogue/spt3/products/ggs27.htm

After months of searching for a good PCB drill spindle this was 
the cheapest and most practical thing I could find that came with 
precision ground collets. I also had to buy the 1/8" collet for 
use with PCB carbide drill bits.


Adam.

Stefan Trethan wrote:

> hi
> 
> i also thought of that initially.
> but i discarded it because i thought this moves the drill in a rotrary way not straight (i know this is 
> nothing with 50cm arm and 1,5mm pcb with.
> you have used it - it is no problem?
> 
> how do you operate it (how is that arm moved by you?).
> 
> a picture would be very nice, to see the motor mount, and maybe the overall machine to see how it is 
> operated. 
> also a look at your bearings would be fine, i have never dismanteled a car clutch (but have a lot of 
> spare bearings). i don't exacty know what thrust bearings are. my dictionary provides various 
> translations meaning everything or nothing..
> 
> is it a simple bearing with two concentric rings (one smaller, one bigger) and balls between the two?
> like the most "ball bearings". or is it of some special type?
> 
> regards
> st
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 19.05.2003 09:40:28, Adam Seychell <adam_seychell@...> wrote:
> 
> 
>>I made a pivoting type manual drill press. The drill motor is 
>>fixed to the end of 500 mm long arm which pivots at its end by 
>>two thrust bearings (from an old car clutch) that sandwich the 
>>50x50mm (3 mm wall) square aluminium arm. The difficult part is 
>>mounting the motor to the end of the arm, because you want it 
>>adjustable for alignment of the vertical feed and get it 
>>perfectly parallel. If anyone is interested I will get some 
>>photos and make them available online.
>>
>>The advantage of this technique is almost zero side to side play 
>>without the need of precision linear bearings. You can safely use 
>> 0.45mm carbide drill bits, the smallest size drill I own.
>>
>>The disadvantage is the extra bench space required for the long 
>>arm, which is fixed to a large heavy base like a slab of 18 mm 
>>MDF particle board. I usually have the habit of over engineering 
>>my home brew stuff and probably could of made it half the size.
>>
>>Adam
>>
>>Stefan Trethan wrote:
>>
>>>i thought of manual drill press, moving the pcb with your hand.
>>>
>>>i know there are such devices sold especially for this task and they are qite expensive.
>>>but i'm sure it is possible to get a drill press working properly without these special bearings.
>>>if you limit the minimum diameter to 0,8 or 0,6 millimeter.
>>>
>>>
>>>i was wondering how the guys here do the drilling which don't hava a x/y drill cnc machine.
>>>
>>>regards
>>>stefan
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>>
>>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>>Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>
>>
>>
>>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
>>
>>
>>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
>

thank you, i fully understand now what thrust bearings are.
i have some of them somewhere, but where.....

i will see if my cheap drilling motor will do the job.
i fear not.
i can perfectly use it with 0,8mm HSS hand drilling (freehand) without breaking.
but you know the hss don't break, they get dull after three holes.
also with freehand drilling there is some damping of vibrations...
but i know this is impossible with carbide...


i would get the bosh grinder here for sure, the bosh equipment is good available.
but i dont want to spend that much (what is au$ / us$ or eur rate?).
there is a vast amount of cheap spindles on the market, dremel like.

all collets i have ever seen here are brass ones. i guess made on a lathe.
but there are also small adjustable drill jucks available.
they are good precision, no scrap, but i fear not good enough for carbide bits.
what do you think about that?

regards
stefan





20.05.2003 05:31:57, Adam Seychell <adam_seychell@...> wrote:

>Stefan,
>
>http://howstuffworks.lycoszone.com/bearing3.htm
>
>This URL  shows the basic idea of the thrust bearing. All I know 
>is that the bearing used in car clutches use a thrust type , but 
>the ones on clutches are fully enclosed, unlike shown in the 
>diagram. These bearings are fairly cheap and widely available. 
>You could even use the old clutch bearings which car mechanics 
>routinely throw away.
>
>If I get home from work at a reasonable hour today, then I'll try 
>make create a quick web page showing the construction of my drill 
>press. This drill machine was designed from only cheap common 
>materials, except actual drill motor, which I had set be back 
>AU$240. See;
>
>http://www.bosch.com.au/productcatalogue/spt3/products/ggs27.htm
>
>After months of searching for a good PCB drill spindle this was 
>the cheapest and most practical thing I could find that came with 
>precision ground collets. I also had to buy the 1/8" collet for 
>use with PCB carbide drill bits.
>
>
>Adam.
>

thank you!
i forgot hp has the manuals of the printers online.
but they have not the very old manuals....

i may buy this printer anyways, it costs nearly nothing...

regards
stefan

20.05.2003 01:59:28, "Steve" <alienrelics@...> wrote:

>I don't know specifically about the HP 400, but all the desktop HP
>inkjet printers I've seen pull the paper in the front from that bottom
>tray you can see, and wrap it 360 back out the front of the printer.
>
>Aha! Always use the resources available. HP still has the user manual
>in PDF format.
>
>http://www.hp.com/cposupport/manindex/dj400_eng_man.html
>
>Looks like you do have the option to feed paper through the back and
>have it come out the front. No idea just how straight the path is, though.
>
>The HP 310, 320, 330, and 340 Deskjet (parallel) and Deskwriter
>(serial) laptop printers have a very short straight through paper path
>but tend to cost a bit more because they are very small and portable.
>I have several of them myself, intending on testing one of them this way.
>
>I'm sorry to hear about the mishap with your printer.
>
>Steve Greenfield
>
>--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan
><stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
>> has anyone this model at home?
>> may it somebody inspect for pcb printing possibilities?
>-snip-
>> if anyone has it, please have a look at the paper transport path,
>how it is driven, if it is possible to 
>> feed flat materialy through, which thickness is possible (maybe with
>moving some axes).
>-snip-
>> how is the paper transported? are the rollers which apply the
>momentum under the paper?
>
>> thanks
>> stefan
>> 
>> image would be here if anyone isn'z sure if he knows this model:
>> http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3416464904
>
>
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> 
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
>
>
>

Stefan Trethan wrote:
> 
> all collets i have ever seen here are brass ones. i guess made on a lathe.
> but there are also small adjustable drill jucks available.
> they are good precision, no scrap, but i fear not good enough for carbide bits.
> what do you think about that?
> 


I originally bought a Dremel, but it was so out of round, that 
the tip of the drill looked blurry when it was running. Well that 
just confirms you get what you pay for. The Dremal used cheap 
aluminium collets, because that's all what's needed for the 
indented purpose. The industrial die grinders, such as BOSCH 
GSS27 have hardened steel ground collets. The collets are 
constructed so they always seat precisely in position when 
tightened up. Another compact straight die grinder is the Matabo 
G500, but not sure of prices. The GSS27 cost me Australian $240 I 
think. So probably around $120 USD. It was my uncle who 
recommended the BOSCH grinder as a PCB drill, he has owned one of 
these for 20 years. So it should last me for ever and a day. Of 
course I can take it out of the drill press and use it as a die 
grinder if I every need too.

Funny thing was that one day I visited this PCB manufacture who 
specialized in prototypes and small runs. At the corner of the 
shop I saw one of these GSS27 laying on the bench, and so I 
started talking to the owner about it. It turns out they use the 
exact same drill motor in their manual drilling machines as I had 
used.

>I originally bought a Dremel, but it was so out of round, that 
>the tip of the drill looked blurry when it was running. Well that 
>just confirms you get what you pay for. The Dremal used cheap 
>aluminium collets, because that's all what's needed for the 
>indented purpose. The industrial die grinders, such as BOSCH 
>GSS27 have hardened steel ground collets. The collets are 
>constructed so they always seat precisely in position when 
>tightened up. Another compact straight die grinder is the Matabo 
>G500, but not sure of prices. The GSS27 cost me Australian $240 I 
>think. So probably around $120 USD. It was my uncle who 
>recommended the BOSCH grinder as a PCB drill, he has owned one of 
>these for 20 years. So it should last me for ever and a day. Of 
>course I can take it out of the drill press and use it as a die 
>grinder if I every need too.
>
>Funny thing was that one day I visited this PCB manufacture who 
>specialized in prototypes and small runs. At the corner of the 
>shop I saw one of these GSS27 laying on the bench, and so I 
>started talking to the owner about it. It turns out they use the 
>exact same drill motor in their manual drilling machines as I had 
>used.

How about the Proxxon tools? I find them quite handy for various tasks
when it comes to Homebrew PCBs'

http://www.proxxon.com/ lists the products available. I'm using the
Drillstand MB 140/S to drill the holes, and the "Bench Circular Saw KS
230" to cut FR4 materials. There you need the "Solid carbide saw
blade" of course but using this one cutting FR4 becomes fun.

So far I'm quie happy with these but since I'm not that long in the
business I would apreciate feedback from this list with regard to
these.

Markus

proxxon also says they have good ball beared axles and gronded steel collets.

the grinding hand tools are relatively cheap (30-40eur).

they also have ready made drill presses from which they also say the spindles are good (and can easily 
drill 0,5mm).

i don't know it that's true.

i will see a local tool shop tomorrow to see what they carry.
and what i think of ot when seeing it.

(one can asess the quality for pcb drilling by viewing the tip of a good tool (ideal is carbide bit) ?)

regards
stefan



20.05.2003 10:46:25, Markus Zingg <m.zingg@...> wrote:

>>I originally bought a Dremel, but it was so out of round, that 
>>the tip of the drill looked blurry when it was running. Well that 
>>just confirms you get what you pay for. The Dremal used cheap 
>>aluminium collets, because that's all what's needed for the 
>>indented purpose. The industrial die grinders, such as BOSCH 
>>GSS27 have hardened steel ground collets. The collets are 
>>constructed so they always seat precisely in position when 
>>tightened up. Another compact straight die grinder is the Matabo 
>>G500, but not sure of prices. The GSS27 cost me Australian $240 I 
>>think. So probably around $120 USD. It was my uncle who 
>>recommended the BOSCH grinder as a PCB drill, he has owned one of 
>>these for 20 years. So it should last me for ever and a day. Of 
>>course I can take it out of the drill press and use it as a die 
>>grinder if I every need too.
>>
>>Funny thing was that one day I visited this PCB manufacture who 
>>specialized in prototypes and small runs. At the corner of the 
>>shop I saw one of these GSS27 laying on the bench, and so I 
>>started talking to the owner about it. It turns out they use the 
>>exact same drill motor in their manual drilling machines as I had 
>>used.
>
>How about the Proxxon tools? I find them quite handy for various tasks
>when it comes to Homebrew PCBs'
>
>http://www.proxxon.com/ lists the products available. I'm using the
>Drillstand MB 140/S to drill the holes, and the "Bench Circular Saw KS
>230" to cut FR4 materials. There you need the "Solid carbide saw
>blade" of course but using this one cutting FR4 becomes fun.
>
>So far I'm quie happy with these but since I'm not that long in the
>business I would apreciate feedback from this list with regard to
>these.
>
>Markus
>
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> 
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
>
>
>

>>How about the Proxxon tools? I find them quite handy for various tasks
>>when it comes to Homebrew PCBs'
>>
>>http://www.proxxon.com/ lists the products available. I'm using the
>>Drillstand MB 140/S to drill the holes, and the "Bench Circular Saw KS
>>230" to cut FR4 materials. There you need the "Solid carbide saw
>>blade" of course but using this one cutting FR4 becomes fun.
>>
>>So far I'm quie happy with these but since I'm not that long in the
>>business I would apreciate feedback from this list with regard to
>>these.
>>
>>Markus
>
>proxxon also says they have good ball beared axles and gronded steel collets.
>
>the grinding hand tools are relatively cheap (30-40eur).
>
>they also have ready made drill presses from which they also say the spindles are good (and can easily 
>drill 0,5mm).
>
>i don't know it that's true.
>
>i will see a local tool shop tomorrow to see what they carry.
>and what i think of ot when seeing it.
>
>(one can asess the quality for pcb drilling by viewing the tip of a good tool (ideal is carbide bit) ?)
>
>regards
>stefan

Stefan,

I fixed your top posting - this is maybe off topic, but you would make
reading threads easier by bottom posting. No offense, just to let you
know that it forms a problem which I'm sure I'm not alone with.

With regard to Proxxon - as I said - I do have the drill press and the
bench circular saw and so far I'm happy. They also offer carbide bit's
specifically recommended for drilling PCB's (FR4 material) and they
work well (at least for me). I first hand wanted to point you towards
these products since they are in fact relatively cheap, and secondly
wanted to know if others on the list may have long term experience
with them they are willing to share.

Markus