Homebrew PCBs

http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=40616

thought this might be interesting. there is a link at the bottom to the 
original article in japanese. if someone can read the original and provide 
more info it might be useful.

jtm

"> How do you deal with excess etchant?

Pour it down the lavatory."

>>>>WHAT??!! That has got to be the stupidest thing I have heard of
late!! DISREGARD that part at least!! bottle (not re-bottle) the
leftovers and PAY for its disposal like everyone else has to do!! no
wonder things are so polluted with this kind of thought
process.....not to mention you will be calling over the plumber sooner
than later, ha ha, good on you! geez.....
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Miller" <jim@...> wrote:
>
> http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=40616
> 
> thought this might be interesting. there is a link at the bottom to the 
> original article in japanese. if someone can read the original and
provide 

> more info it might be useful.
> 
> jtm
>

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "timbomcnuckle" <jaydag71@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2007 5:11 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Spray on Cu news


>"> How do you deal with excess etchant?
>
> Pour it down the lavatory."
>
>>>>>WHAT??!! That has got to be the stupidest thing I have heard of
> late!! DISREGARD that part at least!! bottle (not re-bottle) the
> leftovers and PAY for its disposal like everyone else has to do!! no
> wonder things are so polluted with this kind of thought
> process.....not to mention you will be calling over the plumber sooner
> than later, ha ha, good on you! geez.....
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Miller" <jim@...> wrote:

The odd pint or so a couple of times a year won't have any noticeable effect 
on the environment.

Leon

timbomcnuckle wrote:
> "> How do you deal with excess etchant?
> 
> Pour it down the lavatory."
> 
>>>>> WHAT??!! That has got to be the stupidest thing I have heard of
> late!! DISREGARD that part at least!! bottle (not re-bottle) the
> leftovers and PAY for its disposal like everyone else has to do!! no
> wonder things are so polluted with this kind of thought
> process.....not to mention you will be calling over the plumber sooner
> than later, ha ha, good on you! geez.....

Well like DUH, guess what the main ingredient of "Root Rot" that is sold for
unblocking sewers and toilets is?

> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Miller" <jim@...> wrote:
>> http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=40616
>>
>> thought this might be interesting. there is a link at the bottom to the 
>> original article in japanese. if someone can read the original and provide 
>> more info it might be useful.

"Leon" <leon355@...> writes:
> The odd pint or so a couple of times a year won't have any
> noticeable effect on the environment.

Caveat: an odd pint in a septic tank may kill off enough bacteria to
mess up the tank's biodegration properties.  I'd rather dilute it and
pour it somewhere where I *want* to kill off some growth, than pour it
into something I want to keep alive.

The old saw, "Dilution is the solution to pollution", sure applies to 
Ferric chloride. It is used in fertilizer in dilute amounts. 
Neutralizing the acid and diluting it in 10 or 20 volumes of water makes 
it pretty safe. I can assure you Radio Shack doesn't sell anything that 
exposes them to much liability it's not good for the bottom line.  Here 
they use it in Compost http://www.greenmeadowfarms.com/manuretreatment.htm

The dose makes the poison. Things that are deadly toxins in large 
amounts such a iron, zinc and copper are necessary to sustain all life 
in small amounts.

Using chloride based fertilizers isn't a very good idea in the  long run 
but their cheap.


Gordon

timbomcnuckle wrote:

>
> "> How do you deal with excess etchant?
>
> Pour it down the lavatory."
>
> >>>>WHAT??!! That has got to be the stupidest thing I have heard of
> late!! DISREGARD that part at least!! bottle (not re-bottle) the
> leftovers and PAY for its disposal like everyone else has to do!! no
> wonder things are so polluted with this kind of thought
> process.....not to mention you will be calling over the plumber sooner
> than later, ha ha, good on you! geez.....
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
> <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>, "Jim Miller" <jim@...> wrote:
> >
> > http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=40616 
> <http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=40616>
> >
> > thought this might be interesting. there is a link at the bottom to the
> > original article in japanese. if someone can read the original and
> provide
> > more info it might be useful.
> >
> > jtm
> >
>
>

On 6/27/07, Gordon Couger <gordon.couger@...> wrote:
> The old saw, "Dilution is the solution to pollution", sure applies to
> Ferric chloride. It is used in fertilizer in dilute amounts.
> Neutralizing the acid and diluting it in 10 or 20 volumes of water makes
> it pretty safe. I can assure you Radio Shack doesn't sell anything that
> exposes them to much liability it's not good for the bottom line.  Here
> they use it in Compost http://www.greenmeadowfarms.com/manuretreatment.htm
>
> The dose makes the poison. Things that are deadly toxins in large
> amounts such a iron, zinc and copper are necessary to sustain all life
> in small amounts.

I don't think the etchant itself is any problem with most etchants,
acids are quickly neutralised (otherwise the hydrochloric acid in the
stomachs of our dead ancestors would have killed the planet long ago
;-).
Just pour HCL on limestone if you don't believe it.

The only problem might be copper, and remember radio shack does not
sell etchant with copper in it, you add it. So no "clean" FeCl MSDS or
disposal guideline does apply.

Sea water also contains copper (horseshoe crabs even have a
copper-based blue blood which is useful for medicine, and for the
horseshoe crabs of course.)

Deer (and probably most animals but i only know for sure with deer)
need some copper for their development, and if they are kept on ground
with not enough copper supplements must be given. I believe copper
sulphate is used which is also "very poisonous" just not in very tiny
amounts...

It's all a matter of quantity and while i don't intentionally dispose
of etchant via the sewer i don't hesitate washing PCBs and equipment
in the sink which by necessity flushes down some copper chloride. I've
also washed it on the grass and it didn't die. Tiny amounts......

Now a PCB manufacturing company is another matter, they must have
cascading washes and purify their waste, but they don't have tiny
amounts.

ST

Hi Stefan,

Copper is a much more serious problem in the environment. But once again 
dilution  moves into the realm of fertilizer. On a 100 X 300 foot lot  5 
pounds of elemental copper per year would be a high level of copper 
fertilizer. That's a lot of etching solution.

After reading up on methods of recovery and regeneration of copper and 
etching solutions it looks like a tough row to hoe for everyone 
involved. At the price of copper today and the cost of disposal it looks 
like it would be a good business to recover the metals and purify the 
water its in. Every one I have ever talked to about it tells me its not 
worth the hassle.

Gordon


Stefan Trethan wrote:

>
> On 6/27/07, Gordon Couger <gordon.couger@... 
> <mailto:gordon.couger%40gmail.com>> wrote:
> > The old saw, "Dilution is the solution to pollution", sure applies to
> > Ferric chloride. It is used in fertilizer in dilute amounts.
> > Neutralizing the acid and diluting it in 10 or 20 volumes of water makes
> > it pretty safe. I can assure you Radio Shack doesn't sell anything that
> > exposes them to much liability it's not good for the bottom line. Here
> > they use it in Compost 
> http://www.greenmeadowfarms.com/manuretreatment.htm 
> <http://www.greenmeadowfarms.com/manuretreatment.htm>
> >
> > The dose makes the poison. Things that are deadly toxins in large
> > amounts such a iron, zinc and copper are necessary to sustain all life
> > in small amounts.
>
> I don't think the etchant itself is any problem with most etchants,
> acids are quickly neutralised (otherwise the hydrochloric acid in the
> stomachs of our dead ancestors would have killed the planet long ago
> ;-).
> Just pour HCL on limestone if you don't believe it.
>
> The only problem might be copper, and remember radio shack does not
> sell etchant with copper in it, you add it. So no "clean" FeCl MSDS or
> disposal guideline does apply.
>
> Sea water also contains copper (horseshoe crabs even have a
> copper-based blue blood which is useful for medicine, and for the
> horseshoe crabs of course.)
>
> Deer (and probably most animals but i only know for sure with deer)
> need some copper for their development, and if they are kept on ground
> with not enough copper supplements must be given. I believe copper
> sulphate is used which is also "very poisonous" just not in very tiny
> amounts...
>
> It's all a matter of quantity and while i don't intentionally dispose
> of etchant via the sewer i don't hesitate washing PCBs and equipment
> in the sink which by necessity flushes down some copper chloride. I've
> also washed it on the grass and it didn't die. Tiny amounts......
>
> Now a PCB manufacturing company is another matter, they must have
> cascading washes and purify their waste, but they don't have tiny
> amounts.
>
> ST
>
>

At the risk of taking this somewhat off-topic thread even further off, 
consider how much clorox bleach we dump into our septic systems each 
week doing laundry...  I can remember back in my beer brewing days 
that it only took a few drops of clorox to kill all the bacteria in a 
10 gallon fermenting carboy. I'm no chemist, and except for the issues 
with copper as mentioned by other posters, I don't think a few ounces 
of FeCl3 now and then compare with the rest of the daily crap we 
polute our septic systems with.  

Just my nickle's worth,
Jim

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, DJ Delorie <dj@...> wrote:
>
> 
> "Leon" <leon355@...> writes:
> > The odd pint or so a couple of times a year won't have any
> > noticeable effect on the environment.
> 
> Caveat: an odd pint in a septic tank may kill off enough bacteria to
> mess up the tank's biodegration properties.  I'd rather dilute it and
> pour it somewhere where I *want* to kill off some growth, than pour 
it
> into something I want to keep alive.
>

> 10 gallon fermenting carboy. I'm no chemist, and except for the 
issues 
> with copper as mentioned by other posters, I don't think a few ounces 
> of FeCl3 now and then compare with the rest of the daily crap we 
> polute our septic systems with.  

Sewage treatment plants use ferric chloride in the process before the 
water is dumped back into a river or ocean.

> FeCl3 now and then compare with the rest of the daily crap we 
> polute our septic systems with.  


Aren't septic systems designed for crap?  :)

Tony

> > FeCl3 now and then compare with the rest of the daily crap we 
> > polute our septic systems with.  
> 
> 
> Aren't septic systems designed for crap?  :)
> 
> Tony

I watched a special on the Discovery Channel, and it showed the entire 
treatment process for a sewage plant in New Jersey (is actually where I 
live).  The ferric chloride breaks down some type of enzyme or 
particles that CAN NOT be released into a biologic water system.

docstein99 wrote:
>>> FeCl3 now and then compare with the rest of the daily crap we 
>>> polute our septic systems with.  
>>
>> Aren't septic systems designed for crap?  :)
>>
>> Tony
> 
> I watched a special on the Discovery Channel, and it showed the entire 
> treatment process for a sewage plant in New Jersey (is actually where I 
> live).  The ferric chloride breaks down some type of enzyme or 
> particles that CAN NOT be released into a biologic water system.

I bought a 30Lt bottle of Ferric chloride from a chemical wholesaler
years ago and am still using it.

The trade name for it is "Profloc-F", and they told me the main use of
it was a flocculent for sewage treatment.

docstein99 wrote:
>
> > > FeCl3 now and then compare with the rest of the daily crap we
> > > polute our septic systems with.
> >
> >
> > Aren't septic systems designed for crap? :)
> >
> > Tony
>
> I watched a special on the Discovery Channel, and it showed the entire
> treatment process for a sewage plant in New Jersey (is actually where I
> live). The ferric chloride breaks down some type of enzyme or
> particles that CAN NOT be released into a biologic water system.
>















Ferric chloride is pretty harmless stuff. It is the copper, tin and 
other metals the enchant eats off broads that are the problem in septic 
tanks. The are the ones toxic to life in relativity low concentrations. 
Sewage unlike soil doesn't have an unbelievable about of surface area on 
the soil particles to bind to copper and mitigate its toxicity and make 
it available in a form life can use it.

Gordon

--- DJ Delorie <dj@...> wrote:

> 
> "Leon" <leon355@...> writes:
> > The odd pint or so a couple of times a year won't
> have any
> > noticeable effect on the environment.
> 
> Caveat: an odd pint in a septic tank may kill off
> enough bacteria to
> mess up the tank's biodegration properties.  I'd
> rather dilute it and
> pour it somewhere where I *want* to kill off some
> growth, than pour it
> into something I want to keep alive.
> 

Go the CuCl route, it only grows, nothing to throw
away. Mine's residing in a 2,5 liter tank ATM but is
getting a bit dense so I'll transfer it to something
larger along with a bit of water. If it does get too
much anyway just evaporate the excess and keep the
crystals until you find a way of getting rid of them.

- YD.



       
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