Homebrew PCBs

I bought an epson R300 printer, and a Mispro yellow spongeless cart.
Now I have tried to make PCBs with it but no success.

I've tried to prepare the pcb with Bora's HCL method, and sandpaper
but seems like the problem isn't this because the results are equally bad.

I tried to cure the ink in an oven, and with a heat gun but again, the
results were equally bad.

After etching, the board shows just a faint image of the layout I
tried to get, almost all the copper is gone and just small dots remain
so that I can see the layout. I etched with a strong ferric chloride.

I don't know if the problem is printing. Because I've heard that the
mispro YELLOW is the best one, I bought a yellow cartridge. At first I
wanted to install that in the black ink position but my printer won't
allow me to do so. So I have to export my design from EAGLE editor as
an image, and I change the color in Paint shop pro to Yellow...

Please help, I really need to get this system working because it
allows so much faster production of PCBs.

If you can try to tell the printer to print in
grayscale. But the image may not be dark enough.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.
--- asiido <ebay@...> wrote:

> I bought an epson R300 printer, and a Mispro yellow
> spongeless cart.
> Now I have tried to make PCBs with it but no
> success.
> 
> I've tried to prepare the pcb with Bora's HCL
> method, and sandpaper
> but seems like the problem isn't this because the
> results are equally bad.
> 
> I tried to cure the ink in an oven, and with a heat
> gun but again, the
> results were equally bad.
> 
> After etching, the board shows just a faint image of
> the layout I
> tried to get, almost all the copper is gone and just
> small dots remain
> so that I can see the layout. I etched with a strong
> ferric chloride.
> 
> I don't know if the problem is printing. Because
> I've heard that the
> mispro YELLOW is the best one, I bought a yellow
> cartridge. At first I
> wanted to install that in the black ink position but
> my printer won't
> allow me to do so. So I have to export my design
> from EAGLE editor as
> an image, and I change the color in Paint shop pro
> to Yellow...
> 
> Please help, I really need to get this system
> working because it
> allows so much faster production of PCBs.
> 
> 
> 
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new
> Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> mailto:Homebrew_PCBs-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
> 
> 
>

Could you send some images before curing and after curing to figure out the problem?
Keep in mind that If you use single color it will be low resolution. You need to use color black printing by this way printer mixes 3 colors to obtain black and get maximum resolution. I don't have R300 but with my CX4200 I am still getting  excellent results and I am always using 3 colors. 
Regards,
Volkan
 

asiido <ebay@...> wrote:                               I bought an epson R300 printer, and a Mispro yellow spongeless cart.
 Now I have tried to make PCBs with it but no success.
 
 I've tried to prepare the pcb with Bora's HCL method, and sandpaper
 but seems like the problem isn't this because the results are equally bad.
 
 I tried to cure the ink in an oven, and with a heat gun but again, the
 results were equally bad.
 
 After etching, the board shows just a faint image of the layout I
 tried to get, almost all the copper is gone and just small dots remain
 so that I can see the layout. I etched with a strong ferric chloride.
 
 I don't know if the problem is printing. Because I've heard that the
 mispro YELLOW is the best one, I bought a yellow cartridge. At first I
 wanted to install that in the black ink position but my printer won't
 allow me to do so. So I have to export my design from EAGLE editor as
 an image, and I change the color in Paint shop pro to Yellow...
 
 Please help, I really need to get this system working because it
 allows so much faster production of PCBs.
 
 
     
                               

 __________________________________________________
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> I bought an epson R300 printer, and a Mispro yellow spongeless cart.

> After etching, the board shows just a faint image of the layout I
> tried to get, almost all the copper is gone and just small dots remain

> so that I can see the layout. I etched with a strong ferric chloride.


As there are many steps in the process it would be helpful if you could 
eliminate the ones that are OK. You may have to experiment

Prior to baking the inked image is the image on copper good?
-no pooling of ink
-visually good coverage

If so then the problem is later in the process.

Test baking the image and then determine if it is mechanically tough. 
Read the posts to determine what is being experienced after baking an 
ink that resists etching.

Will it wash off with water? 

You imply that you actually experience the ink being etched off

>almost all the copper is gone and just small dots remain
>I etched with a strong ferric chloride.

Time to experiment with a weaker solution as it may not attack the ink 
resist in the time it takes to remove the unwanted copper.

Over to you.

The problem was that there wasn't enough ink on the PCB. Since my
printer has 6 different color cartridges and I only had a yellow one
with pigmented ink, I changed the chips with the black cartridge and
it helped a lot! Now I can print a black image and use the greyscale
setting, and it will come out yellow.

Finally I got a good amount of ink, so much that I preheated the board
 to make it stay better. The results were promising but not
satisfactory, there were always some little faults in the PCBs after
etching.

I don't know if this method of making PCBs is any better than using UV
exposure..because that way the results are consistent. I tried
different methods to prepare the boards, and the got the best results
just by using some sandpaper and cleaning the board with isopropyl
alcohol..but I still feel that for some reason there is not enough ink
on the board on some locations because it doesn't survive etching
completely.

Do you think that this method can be a reliable? Maybe I should buy
more of those MISPRO cartridges.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Volkan Sahin <v_sahin@...> wrote:
>
> Could you send some images before curing and after curing to figure
out the problem?
> Keep in mind that If you use single color it will be low resolution.
You need to use color black printing by this way printer mixes 3
colors to obtain black and get maximum resolution. I don't have R300
but with my CX4200 I am still getting  excellent results and I am
always using 3 colors. 
> Regards,
> Volkan
>  
> 
> asiido <ebay@...> wrote:                               I bought an
epson R300 printer, and a Mispro yellow spongeless cart.
>  Now I have tried to make PCBs with it but no success.
>  
>  I've tried to prepare the pcb with Bora's HCL method, and sandpaper
>  but seems like the problem isn't this because the results are
equally bad.

>  
>  I tried to cure the ink in an oven, and with a heat gun but again, the
>  results were equally bad.
>  
>  After etching, the board shows just a faint image of the layout I
>  tried to get, almost all the copper is gone and just small dots remain
>  so that I can see the layout. I etched with a strong ferric chloride.
>  
>  I don't know if the problem is printing. Because I've heard that the
>  mispro YELLOW is the best one, I bought a yellow cartridge. At first I
>  wanted to install that in the black ink position but my printer won't
>  allow me to do so. So I have to export my design from EAGLE editor as
>  an image, and I change the color in Paint shop pro to Yellow...
>  
>  Please help, I really need to get this system working because it
>  allows so much faster production of PCBs.
>  
>  
>      
>                                
> 
>  __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
> http://mail.yahoo.com 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

I was wondering if it's best to use cold ferric solution, or warmed. 
I have one of those tanks that sprays the cold ferric chloride. I 
would guess that the cold would work better in preserving the ink.

I bought a continuous ink system and plan to fill all chambers with 
the misYellow.

-Lee

The etch rate of a warm solution is way higher than cold. regarding the 
preserving of the ink not sure, if the ink is dissolving or being etched by 
the solution it will may not make a difference with dilute solution because 
the copper etch rate will also slow down and it has to be in the solution 
longer which will give it more time to react with the ink. If the 
temperature actually softens the ink and dissolves it faster then it is a 
different story....

Kim


----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Lee Studley" <indigo_red@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2007 8:14 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: direct inkjet, I can't figure this out


>I was wondering if it's best to use cold ferric solution, or warmed.
> I have one of those tanks that sprays the cold ferric chloride. I
> would guess that the cold would work better in preserving the ink.
>
> I bought a continuous ink system and plan to fill all chambers with
> the misYellow.
>
> -Lee
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and 
> Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

This seems like a lot of trouble and expense to avoid
using TT paper or photo masking.

Is it worth it?

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

--- Kim Vellore <kimvellore@...> wrote:

> The etch rate of a warm solution is way higher than
> cold. regarding the 
> preserving of the ink not sure, if the ink is
> dissolving or being etched by 
> the solution it will may not make a difference with
> dilute solution because 
> the copper etch rate will also slow down and it has
> to be in the solution 
> longer which will give it more time to react with
> the ink. If the 
> temperature actually softens the ink and dissolves
> it faster then it is a 
> different story....
> 
> Kim
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Lee Studley" <indigo_red@...>
> To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2007 8:14 AM
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: direct inkjet, I can't
> figure this out
> 
> 
> >I was wondering if it's best to use cold ferric
> solution, or warmed.
> > I have one of those tanks that sprays the cold
> ferric chloride. I
> > would guess that the cold would work better in
> preserving the ink.
> >
> > I bought a continuous ink system and plan to fill
> all chambers with
> > the misYellow.
> >
> > -Lee
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Be sure to visit the group home and check for new
> Links, Files, and 
> > Photos:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new
> Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> mailto:Homebrew_PCBs-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
> 
> 
>

For me inkjet printing is reliable and easy. I am no longer using any other method any more.
It is clear that you can not get the same performance from the inkjet printer as photo process (which can go submicron) assuming that your mask image is at least 2400 dpi in photo process, but if you create your master with inkjet printer you can get similar results. I could able to print 6mil trace and space on pcb  with inkjet printer.
 As I said, try to use 3 color and set your printer to highest possible quality with photo paper. MIS Pro yellow is the best etch resistant but it is not easy to see so I am mixing it with MIS Pro Magenta. Using gray setting as far as I know only changes filling pattern so I don't prefer it.
Cheers,
Volkan
asiido <ebay@...> wrote:                               The problem was that there wasn't enough ink on the PCB. Since my
 printer has 6 different color cartridges and I only had a yellow one
 with pigmented ink, I changed the chips with the black cartridge and
 it helped a lot! Now I can print a black image and use the greyscale
 setting, and it will come out yellow.
 
 Finally I got a good amount of ink, so much that I preheated the board
  to make it stay better. The results were promising but not
 satisfactory, there were always some little faults in the PCBs after
 etching.
 
 I don't know if this method of making PCBs is any better than using UV
 exposure..because that way the results are consistent. I tried
 different methods to prepare the boards, and the got the best results
 just by using some sandpaper and cleaning the board with isopropyl
 alcohol..but I still feel that for some reason there is not enough ink
 on the board on some locations because it doesn't survive etching
 completely.
 
 Do you think that this method can be a reliable? Maybe I should buy
 more of those MISPRO cartridges.
 
 --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Volkan Sahin <v_sahin@...> wrote:
 >
 > Could you send some images before curing and after curing to figure
 out the problem?
 > Keep in mind that If you use single color it will be low resolution.
 You need to use color black printing by this way printer mixes 3
 colors to obtain black and get maximum resolution. I don't have R300
 but with my CX4200 I am still getting  excellent results and I am
 always using 3 colors. 
 > Regards,
 > Volkan
 >  
 > 
 > asiido <ebay@...> wrote:                               I bought an
 epson R300 printer, and a Mispro yellow spongeless cart.
 >  Now I have tried to make PCBs with it but no success.
 >  
 >  I've tried to prepare the pcb with Bora's HCL method, and sandpaper
 >  but seems like the problem isn't this because the results are
 equally bad.
 >  
 >  I tried to cure the ink in an oven, and with a heat gun but again, the
 >  results were equally bad.
 >  
 >  After etching, the board shows just a faint image of the layout I
 >  tried to get, almost all the copper is gone and just small dots remain
 >  so that I can see the layout. I etched with a strong ferric chloride.
 >  
 >  I don't know if the problem is printing. Because I've heard that the
 >  mispro YELLOW is the best one, I bought a yellow cartridge. At first I
 >  wanted to install that in the black ink position but my printer won't
 >  allow me to do so. So I have to export my design from EAGLE editor as
 >  an image, and I change the color in Paint shop pro to Yellow...
 >  
 >  Please help, I really need to get this system working because it
 >  allows so much faster production of PCBs.
 >  
 >  
 >      
 >                                
 > 
 >  __________________________________________________
 > Do You Yahoo!?
 > Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
 > http://mail.yahoo.com 
 > 
 > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
 >
 
 
     
                               

 __________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'm just getting the last of my bugs out of my C84 printer.  It sounds like, one, you need to get more ink down smoothly, and two, you need to cure it better. 

 I messed with my printer settings till I got the maximum ink output I could.  I sand my boards with 400 grit sandpaper (wetted with water), then clean with windex, then clean with methyl ethyl ketone (acetone will do too).  Do not use isopropyl alcohol or water to clean the board with directly before printing - there are water marks left behind that will keep the ink from sitting evenly.  I might start sanding with 1000 after the 400, because my ink isn't sitting perfectly smoothly.  Don't touch the board after its been cleaned, use it immediately.  You want to make sure there is no dust on the board or around the printer, it'll cause the ink to short tracks out.

Curing is very important.  It has to get up to about 230C (I believe thats the magic number, its published here somewhere).  I measured my toaster oven with a thermocouple, and it didn't get near that, even though it said it would - but when I used the toast function, it got there perfectly.  So all I have to do is put the boards in, and set to a medium toast.  At that point, that ink will not come off!  In fact, tonight, I finally found how to get it off - a soak in cleaning ammonia for a few hours.  Works wonders.

If your getting etching through areas that have been inked over, either they are too thin (not enough ink), or the ink hasn't cured.

Just keep playing with it, it takes a lot of tweaking...

asiido <ebay@...> wrote: I bought an epson R300 printer, and a Mispro yellow spongeless cart.
Now I have tried to make PCBs with it but no success.

I've tried to prepare the pcb with Bora's HCL method, and sandpaper
but seems like the problem isn't this because the results are equally bad.

I tried to cure the ink in an oven, and with a heat gun but again, the
results were equally bad.

After etching, the board shows just a faint image of the layout I
tried to get, almost all the copper is gone and just small dots remain
so that I can see the layout. I etched with a strong ferric chloride.

I don't know if the problem is printing. Because I've heard that the
mispro YELLOW is the best one, I bought a yellow cartridge. At first I
wanted to install that in the black ink position but my printer won't
allow me to do so. So I have to export my design from EAGLE editor as
an image, and I change the color in Paint shop pro to Yellow...

Please help, I really need to get this system working because it
allows so much faster production of PCBs.



Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs 
Yahoo! Groups Links





 __________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Short term - definately not.
Long term - probably!
We want to minimize the supplies we need to buy.

> This seems like a lot of trouble and expense to avoid
> using TT paper or photo masking.
>
> Is it worth it?
>
> Bob Macklin
> Seattle, Wa.
>
> --- Kim Vellore <kimvellore@...> wrote:
>
>> The etch rate of a warm solution is way higher than
>> cold. regarding the
>> preserving of the ink not sure, if the ink is
>> dissolving or being etched by
>> the solution it will may not make a difference with
>> dilute solution because
>> the copper etch rate will also slow down and it has
>> to be in the solution
>> longer which will give it more time to react with
>> the ink. If the
>> temperature actually softens the ink and dissolves
>> it faster then it is a
>> different story....
>>
>> Kim
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Lee Studley" <indigo_red@...>
>> To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
>> Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2007 8:14 AM
>> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: direct inkjet, I can't
>> figure this out
>>
>>
>> >I was wondering if it's best to use cold ferric
>> solution, or warmed.
>> > I have one of those tanks that sprays the cold
>> ferric chloride. I
>> > would guess that the cold would work better in
>> preserving the ink.
>> >
>> > I bought a continuous ink system and plan to fill
>> all chambers with
>> > the misYellow.
>> >
>> > -Lee
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Be sure to visit the group home and check for new
>> Links, Files, and
>> > Photos:
>> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new
>> Links, Files, and Photos:
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>> mailto:Homebrew_PCBs-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
>>
>>
>>
>
>

And of course the idea is to get this all figured out so that once you
follow the plans/procedures to the letter, you just drop the board in
the printer, bake it, and etch it. When that comes about, it will be
simpler than TT or photomasking.

Steve Greenfield

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Christopher Hart" <kc8ufv@...>
wrote:

>
> Short term - definately not.
> Long term - probably!
> We want to minimize the supplies we need to buy.
> 
> > This seems like a lot of trouble and expense to avoid
> > using TT paper or photo masking.
> >
> > Is it worth it?
> >
> > Bob Macklin
> > Seattle, Wa.
> >